B&W DB1D vs REL Subwoofer

[Pim]

Interesting thread this. I've read most of it and there seems to be quite a bit of discussion about delay caused by the filters/EQ etc. in the subwoofer. 

 

What hasn't been said yet is that the Devialet 220 that @sator has can be programmed to delay the speaker output. So the amp itself probably makes integrating subs a lot easier. Just plonk the sub where it works best, work out the delay and program that into the Devialet and Bob's your uncle.

 

Something of my experience to add to this; I have Dynaudio speakers in my van. Initially they were paired with a JL audio W7 sub. It sounded very powerful and was a lot of fun. When after years the surround of the sub few apart I replaced it with a Dynaudio sub. I couldn't run it anywhere near as loud ( I had two and broke them both) as with the JL but it sounded a lot more musical. That's in a van, not a room and with totally different subs than discussed here but it might be worth checking out the new Dynaudio subs.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Pim

[almikel]

4 hours ago, Pim said:

What hasn't been said yet is that the Devialet 220 that @sator has can be programmed to delay the speaker output. So the amp itself probably makes integrating subs a lot easier.

agreed.

I went googlwebbing the Devialet 220 after your post - it's a serious piece of kit...

 

Mike

 

[Sator]

5 hours ago, Pim said:

Interesting thread this. I've read most of it and there seems to be quite a bit of discussion about delay caused by the filters/EQ etc. in the subwoofer. 

 

What hasn't been said yet is that the Devialet 220 that @sator has can be programmed to delay the speaker output. So the amp itself probably makes integrating subs a lot easier. Just plonk the sub where it works best, work out the delay and program that into the Devialet and Bob's your uncle.

 

Something of my experience to add to this; I have Dynaudio speakers in my van. Initially they were paired with a JL audio W7 sub. It sounded very powerful and was a lot of fun. When after years the surround of the sub few apart I replaced it with a Dynaudio sub. I couldn't run it anywhere near as loud ( I had two and broke them both) as with the JL but it sounded a lot more musical. That's in a van, not a room and with totally different subs than discussed here but it might be worth checking out the new Dynaudio subs.

 

 

This has become a good thread. In fact, it's quite possibly now amongst the more informative subwoofer threads around on the net.

 

Yes, the Devialet 220 can be programmed to delay the speaker output to make them more in synch with the subwoofer. I mentioned that to the same know-all guy at Lifestyle Store and he just scoffed and sneered condescendingly at my suggestion. The only reason he could give sounded like more abject REL propaganda to me. He proclaimed that only by having the main speakers and subwoofers overlap via their allegedly vastly superior High-Level connection, can you possibly attain seamless integration between them. However, I disagree, and find that a large overlap between mains and subwoofers creates gross bloat from the lower midrange downwards. This REL-educated so-called "expert" with the Big Opinions argued that such bass bloat (protruding in a phallic manner out of the frequency-response plot) is not only desirable but some sort of higher Ideal to strive for (LOL). The dreadful sound from the way he set up the subwoofers going only by ear (1980's ghetto-blaster type of doof doof doof) merely drove home the virtues of the neutrality attained by an even frequency-response plot.

 

The reason REL would "educate" sellers to say this sort of thing is that they have failed to develop a quality high-pass filter option that rivals the JL Audio CR-1 subwoofer crossover.  Once again, REL have been sadly reduced to arguing that they are so far behind that they are actually streets ahead of the race. In the case of a Devialet amp with a built-in high-pass filter, it just obviates the need for something like the CR-1 altogether.

 

http://intl.jlaudio.com/home-audio-electronics-subwoofer-crossovershttp://intl.jlaudio.com/home-audio-electronics-subwoofer-crossovershttp://intl.jlaudio.com/home-audio-electronics-subwoofer-crossovers

 

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/jl-audio-fathom-f113v2-subwoofer-and-cr-1-active-crossover/

 

I quote:

 

"As good as the Fathom f113v2 is, and as well as it integrated with main speakers, the system’s overall sound is transformed by adding the CR-1 outboard crossover. Although I’m the first to regard with suspicion the idea of inserting an active piece of electronics into the signal path, I found that the CR-1 is extremely clean and transparent. If it weren’t, the CR-1 would be a non-starter. ... The CR-1 introduced no noticeable degradation to timbre, soundstaging, or dynamics. Every time I’ve added a subwoofer to a system I’ve felt that the available adjustments were relatively crude tools that allowed me to get close to ideal integration with the main speakers, but involved some guesswork, trial and error, patience, and just plain luck. The CR-1 is an entirely different story. This device provides extremely fine control over the critical hand-off between "subwoofer and main speakers. The damping controls, in particular, give you an ultra-precise adjustment over how the sub and main speakers sum at the crossover point. In a remarkably short time, I had dialled-in the CR-1 so that the entire system was perfectly seamless from top to bottom. It’s amazing that it took so long for the industry to create a device like this; once you use it you’ll find it indispensable."

 

I must add that I was impressed by the vastly superior controls on the front panel of the JL Audio f113, which allowed far more finesse and refinement to dovetail far more seamless integration with the main speakers (e.g extreme low-frequency trim and ability to change the slope of fall off on the low pass filter) than the REL. This alone put the JL Audio far ahead of the REL, and any claims by the latter to superior integration based on the High-Level connection seemed increasingly like desperate sales rhetoric. 

 

[frankn]

CR-1 is costly though - $5K on top of your subwoofer(s). F-113 are $7600 each. 

Could you do the same crossover function using mini-DSP for a lot less $$?

[davewantsmoore]

6 hours ago, Pim said:

What hasn't been said yet is that the Devialet 220 that @sator has can be programmed to delay the speaker output.

Yes.  Almost all electronic crossovers do this.

 

[davewantsmoore]

2 minutes ago, frankn said:

Could you do the same crossover function using mini-DSP for a lot less $$?

In short, yes.

[frankn]

I know, it was retorical.....

[davewantsmoore]

4 minutes ago, frankn said:

I know

Most don't 

[Sator]

Well, the answer was always going to be a "yes'', but the more important question is whether it can be done without degrading the signal by passing it through an additional electronic stage. That review suggests that the $5K may give you precisely that signal neutrality. Yes, you read correctly...may. At the moment, I am sufficiency impressed by the engineering from JL Audio that I am inclined to give them the greater benefit of the doubt but am open to being proven incorrect. 

[Snoopy8]

@Sator Have you decided or are you still doing another round with Mr know-all at Lifestyle ? 

[Pim]

17 hours ago, Sator said:

Yes, the Devialet 220 can be programmed to delay the speaker output to make them more in synch with the subwoofer. I mentioned that to the same know-all guy at Lifestyle Store and he just scoffed and sneered condescendingly at my suggestion. The only reason he could give sounded like more abject REL propaganda to me. He proclaimed that only by having the main speakers and subwoofers overlap via their allegedly vastly superior High-Level connection, can you possibly attain seamless integration between them. However, I disagree, and find that a large overlap between mains and subwoofers creates gross bloat from the lower midrange downwards. This REL-educated so-called "expert" with the Big Opinions argued that such bass bloat (protruding in a phallic manner out of the frequency-response plot) is not only desirable but some sort of higher Ideal to strive for (LOL). The dreadful sound from the way he set up the subwoofers going only by ear (1980's ghetto-blaster type of doof doof doof) merely drove home the virtues of the neutrality attained by an even frequency-response plot.

 

The reason REL would "educate" sellers to say this sort of thing is that they have failed to develop a quality high-pass filter option that rivals the JL Audio CR-1 subwoofer crossover.  Once again, REL have been sadly reduced to arguing that they are so far behind that they are actually streets ahead of the race. In the case of a Devialet amp with a built-in high-pass filter, it just obviates the need for something like the CR-1 altogether.

 

I believe the reason REL give for using the speaker / high level output is that it's the only way to keep the musical flavour of the amplifier from top to bottom. So if you're using a light weight valve amp because you like the warm sound it gives, connecting the sub to the speaker outputs gives that same softish bass. If you use a powerful solid sate amp with tight bass it should give you that too in the sub's output. 

 

You mentioned Jim  Smith a few times. It's been a long time ago since I read his book but he's still my setup guru. Three things he says about subs that I can remember and to keep in mind:

 

1.  Never use just the one sub. Always use two at least. Which you're not planning to do in the long run so you're on the right path there.

2. Use a female vocal recording to set up your subs and focus on getting a natural voice. Don't use doof doof music as it's mostly just the one frequency you'll be tuning on, resulting in grief on other frequencies. It looks like the REL mad salesman is one of those who uses doof doof.

3. A little (1-1.5 dB) bump around 250Hz is desirable for giving a bit of life to the music. If it's flat around 250Hz, you would probably describe the sound as analytical or neutral at best. Never forget the reason why you're listening to music; it's to enjoy yourself, not to dissect it.

 

Both Dynaudio and Devialet are a bit on the analytical/neutral end of the spectrum so careful setup to get enjoyable sound is a must. I know this because the reason I started reading your thread in the first place is because I own the same two brands and am planning subs to give more life to the setup. As I said, interesting thread

Edited September 12, 2018 by Pim

[Sator]

The justification REL give for their High-Level input is pure propaganda. Firstly, it's just another form of connection to pass the signal from amp to subwoofer. There is nothing exceptional about it, and I am afraid to say that any other subwoofer maker on the planet would agree. Secondly, in the REL vs JL Audio comparison, the engineering characteristics of the subwoofer itself overwhelmingly dominated the quality of the sound output and the subwoofer's ability to integrate with the main speakers. 

 

For me, enjoyable sound is crisp, dry, analytical, and brutally neutral. When I hear tubey types pour contempt on gear, I prick my ears up in eager anticipation. When know-it-all guy at Lifestyle suggested I get "better amps" than the Devialet, meaning Audio Research tube amps (eek), I asked him how much he is willing to pay me. Bidding starts at a million dollars

 

Edited September 13, 2018 by Sator
typo fix

[Sator]

On 11/09/2018 at 11:38 PM, Snoopy8 said:

@Sator Have you decided or are you still doing another round with Mr know-all at Lifestyle ? 

I put a deposit down today on a JL Audio f113 at Lifestyle Store. I was really impressed by the JL, particularly by the more refined controls eg of the slope of low pass roll off and by the way it integrated with the mains far better than the REL to the point that it just disappeared. Add in the automated 18-band EQ capability and it's a no-brainer. I think the JL Audio f113v2 fully deserves its 2018 Stereophile Class A classification.

 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/recommended-components-2018-edition-subwoofers

 

And no...I don't deal with Mr Know-it-All. I deal with one of the nicer sales staff members, who offered me an excellent price for the f113 that made it more than competitive with what I could have gotten going down the B&W DB1d route (RRP $6900). After months of research, I am pretty confident I made the right choice. 

Edited September 12, 2018 by Sator

[Sub Sonic]

Nice work, and nice choice! 

 

SS

[davewantsmoore]

On 11/09/2018 at 10:49 PM, Sator said:

the more important question is whether it can be done without degrading the signal by passing it through an additional electronic stage.

Setting up these types of units so all they're doing is passing (but not intentionally modifying) the signal is usually very enlightening.   

 

12 hours ago, Sator said:

Firstly, it's just another form of connection to pass the signal from amp to subwoofer. The is nothing exceptional about it

^^^ this

 

11 hours ago, Sator said:

Add in the automated 18-band EQ capability and it's a no-brainer

It is this ^^^ which will move the sound between tight/neutral to warm/wooly, or however people describe sound.    People think that some type of X ... whether X is a tube amp, or a certain type of connection, or a port, or a blah is going to make the sound <like this> but really it is the frequency response which is responsible for almost all the sound flavour.    Being able to adjust it (and not be stuck with what you get from your room/positioning) is the key thing for a woofer performance.

[Pim]

12 hours ago, Sator said:

The justification REL give for their High-Level input is pure propaganda.

REL has been using this system for a lot longer than the competition has been using complicated filters and equalisers and they wouldn't have built as good a name for themselves if it didn't work. I can see merit in the theory behind it. My guess is that the REL enthusiast just wasn't very proficient in setting it up properly. That doesn't take anything away from the fact that your experience clearly showed that the JL is superior. I'm just still keeping an open mind on REL that's all. Congratulations on your choice BTW. 

 

I hope you keep this thread going for a while. It wouldn't be complete without reading how the JL works at home.

[andyr]

1 hour ago, davewantsmoore said:

IPeople think that some type of X ... whether X is a tube amp, or a certain type of connection, or a port, or a blah is going to make the sound <like this> but really it is the frequency response which is responsible for almost all the sound flavour.

 

IME, there is something more than just the FR which affects how something sounds, Dave.  The AKSA preamp I used to have has a unity-gain tube output buffer; Hugh Dean designed it this way so that you could:

• use the ss-out to power subs, and
• use the tube out, to power your mains.

Of course, if you wanted to, you could use the ss output to feed the amps powering your mains but owners of this preamp all agree that:

• using tube out on the mains sounded more pleasurable than if you used ss output on the mains.  Presumably, the extra dollop of H2 which the tube produces is responsible for this.
• and using ss out on subs (or in my active case, on woofers as well as subs) gives them a cleaner delivery than when the tube out is used (ie. the tube softens the leading edge of bass transients, slightly).

Andy

 

[davewantsmoore]

7 hours ago, Pim said:

they wouldn't have built as good a name for themselves if it didn't work

 

Of course, it works just fine.    The issue is they claim that other connection methods are fundamentally flawed, and this is a "very bold" claim, that they offer very little justification for, and provide even less evidence.

 

7 hours ago, Pim said:

I can see merit in the theory behind it

It offers the ability to avoid some practical pitfalls that people could make....

 

If I know that someone is plugging the output of the power amplifier which is feeding the main speakers (as opposed to the output of a preamplifier or an active crossover, or something) .... I can ensure that:

 

Signal level is correct, and in correct polarity

That the the volume control the user has always used (eg. in their preamp or poweramp) controls the subwoofer

People don't need Y cables, or sources with multiple outputs

Circuits can be run with a high SNR

My subwoofer amplifier can be simpler (if high-level signals are all it deals with)

 

7 hours ago, Pim said:

My guess is that the REL enthusiast just wasn't very proficient in setting it up properly.

There's absolutely no reason to think that all else equal, that this connection type would sound different   (sometimes things aren't equal, but). 

 

[almikel]

On 11/09/2018 at 10:38 PM, davewantsmoore said:

Yes.  Almost all electronic crossovers do this.

almost all electronic DSP crossovers - I've not come across one that can't (provide configurable delay on inputs/outputs).

Old school analog electronic crossovers won't provide capability to delay the mains, and in the context of this thread, plenty of subs still use old school analog electronic crossovers.

 

Many subs also use analog electronic filters to create delay, it's just that this is usually applied to the sub driver, and not to provide a delayed signal for the mains.

Analog electronic filters also have Group Delay (different frequencies are delayed more/less), although Bessel filters get reasonably close to linear phase (as close as you can with analog circuits).

 

The venerable LR24 analog electronic crossover (RIP Siegfried) would be deployed in millions of subs.

 

cheers

Mike

 

[Sub Sonic]

55 minutes ago, almikel said:

(RIP Siegfried)

The world has lost an audio icon

[XCD]

I’m in the same boat as the @Sator , and reading this thread has been incredibly helpful. One area I’m different from you is that I’ll be using it mainly for HT. But I have two questions: 

 

(1) In the end, did you have a chance to compare the B&W DB1D to the JL113v2? It seems the REL and the JL became your top contenders in the end. Why pass you pass over the DB1D 

 

(2) Have you looked into the Paradigm Prestige 1000SW? If so, what did you think? What about the Paradigm Persona Sub? Also a very compact and powerful subwoofer.

[conno]

  solution.  buy  my  listed  speaker system  all  timbre  matched.  i   never  ever  ran  the   subs  on  2 channel    music.  you  cant  hear  subs   only  feel  them.  i prefer  passive  subs .  they  seem  to be  seamlessly  integrated  when  all   built  together.

[almikel]

On 30/09/2018 at 3:49 PM, conno said:

solution.  buy  my  listed  speaker system  all  timbre  matched.  i   never  ever  ran  the   subs  on  2 channel    music.  you  cant  hear  subs   only  feel  them.  i prefer  passive  subs .  they  seem  to be  seamlessly  integrated  when  all   built  together.

That's a nice setup you'e selling

GLWS

 

On 30/09/2018 at 3:49 PM, conno said:

i never ever ran the subs on 2 channel music

I run a sub on all content - music, movies whatever - I don't get the concept that 2 ch doesn't need subs.

Lots (most?) of 2 ch music benefits from well integrated sub/s.

On 30/09/2018 at 3:49 PM, conno said:

you cant hear subs 

with well integrated sub/s, you can't locate them, but you certainly hear them, especially the absence of low bass when you turn them off.

I low pass my sub at 60Hz, and you can tell (hear) when it's turned off.

On 30/09/2018 at 3:49 PM, conno said:

i prefer  passive  subs .  they  seem  to be  seamlessly  integrated  when  all   built  together.

If you have sufficient control driving the sub (EQ and ability to delay mains) I don't think it makes any difference whether the sub is active or passive (I'm assuming what you mean by a "passive" sub is just a sub-driver in a box, driven by an external amp and DSP - and not a passive crossover to the sub?).

 

I wouldn't even attempt proper mains/sub integration with a purely passive crossover setup. Likely possible, just way too hard (IMO).

 

On 30/09/2018 at 3:49 PM, conno said:

they  seem  to be  seamlessly  integrated  when  all   built  together.

good room/speaker/sub integration is not easy - and poorly applied DSP can make things worse...

...but well applied it works well (IMO)

 

cheers

Mike

[Pim]

Sator,

 

Have you got your sub yet?

[Pim]

Must be busy enjoying it