KLE Innovations USB Cable

[bhobba]

I ordered some power and speaker cables, to go with the new Grandinote amp and DAC I am getting from Mike Lenehan, from Keith at KLE.  He said no problem, I will bring some over and you can see how they go.  Also, he mentioned, I have been thinking about a USB cable for a while, do you mind if I borrow your Mac-book as a source to develop it.  I said sure.   When finished, and bring the Mac-book back, can I bring it over, as well as the other cables, and see what you think.  I said sure - should be interesting.

 

Before going on I need to disclose I know Keith, having been with him at many GTG's, he is a fellow member of the Queesnslnd Audio Club, and have been with him during many listening sessions tweaking the Lenehan Audio ML5's, and hearing what his cables do.

 

OK - power cables easily better than the standard ones I had in my system.  Very analogue like and more revealing - sort of like a layer of grunge removed.  But its hardly a fair comparison, as I said the cables I had were simply standard HW store stuff.  The speaker cables were more interesting.   They were replacing 10 year old Lenehan Audio Ribbonflex.   Sound stage widened, much more harmonically rich and analogue like, more depth.  Spoke to Mike and it didn't surprise him, things have moved on a lot in his cables - his new ones are a lot better.  Trouble is at the moment Mikes cables have trouble with the Grandinote amp that Mike needs to sort out.

 

But now  to the USB.  In the future when I have the Grandinote I will not be using USB - with that DAC you either stream or direct connect a USB Drive.  At the moment I am using a small Curios from an ISO Regen into a Direct Stream.  Generally the Curios has the edge on other cables.   Well I was stonkered - here Keith's Cable was up there.   Again more analogue like, the sound stage widened with greater depth.  It was more organic.   Was it better - maybe the Curious had some better detail - I don't know.  Rawl99 calls texture and a organic type sound better harmonic resolution so maybe that's what it had.  What I can say for sure is its one fine USB Cable. 

 

Like all things in Audio best to listen to it first to make up your mind - and do it blind if you are into that sort of thing.

 

And please if you think cables make no difference watch the following where Rob Watts explains things that you can barely measure the difference between even with the best state of the art equipment are clearly audible, things other engineers say obviously would make no difference:

 

Also some say - regarding power cables - with all the cable before how can the last bit make any difference?  Does a filter in the cable make no difference?  As Rob mentioned above about experiments with cables - power and otherwise - RFI effects of different cables, again barely if at all measurable, make clearly audible differences.

 

And if you want to hear it for yourself all the cables will be at the GTG on the 4th of August at Mike Lenehans.

 

Thanks

Bill

Edited July 11, 2018 by bhobba

[Guest gmdb]

The KLEI power cables are simply CSY industrial cables that sell for around $10 per metre max.  I've been told that he uses a 4-core and KLEI ties 3 of the cores to negative and uses the fragile screen for ground.  I used to sell them before finding out that they were non-complying with Australian standards.  As to the USB cable KLEI has little experience in this field and I suggest bhobba that you are advertising or easily impressed.

 

Mods, please note that I sell neither power cords nor USB cables.

[bhobba]

6 hours ago, gmdb said:

The KLEI power cables are simply CSY industrial cables that sell for around $10 per metre max.  I've been told that he uses a 4-core and KLEI ties 3 of the cores to negative and uses the fragile screen for ground.  I used to sell them before finding out that they were non-complying with Australian standards.  As to the USB cable KLEI has little experience in this field and I suggest bhobba that you are advertising or easily impressed.

 

I have been assured by the maker, and Rawl99 who has a honors degree in electrical engineering has confirmed it, they are fully compliant.   Where you are getting your info from beats me.

 

I paid for these cables (except the USB which because I will probably move to the Gradinote which does not require USB cables I may not get) - I did not get them for free - and it is not an inconsiderable amount.  I do not pay money like this for no reason.

 

Have you considered the reliability of whoever is telling you this?

 

And BTW please read what I am suggesting.   Just listen to it and do a blind test if you want.  Blind tests for one person are dead easy and will tell immediately if it's hooey or not.

 

Mike Lenehan tried to build some power cables and built some prototypes.   He failed miserably - a simple Yarbo beat them.   Believe me - I have heard this cable against the Yarbo and it was no contest.   That's just my view of course - have a listen yourself and make up your own mind - its that easy.

 

Thanks

Bill

 

 

Edited July 12, 2018 by bhobba

[sir sanders zingmore]

On 12/07/2018 at 3:02 AM, bhobba said:

Mikes cables have trouble with the Grandinote amp

What do you mean ?

[Guest Muon N']

5 hours ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

What do you mean ?

Would it be capacitance?

 

Hope not

[pete_mac]

7 hours ago, bhobba said:

 

I have been assured by the maker, and Rawl99 who has a honors degree in electrical engineering has confirmed it, they are fully compliant.   Where you are getting your info from beats me.

 

 

 

There were some previous well-documented discussions on the design and legality of the cable, including a number of photos showing a disassembled cable and the construction method.

 

Investigations suggested that she's a length of multi-core SY industrial cable wired in accordance with Keith's 'Eichmann Ratio' which is based around thicker negative/neutral conductors (hence the multi-core SY cable with several conductors bunched for the neutral wire) and finished off with custom-ordered plugs from Wonplug in China.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[acg]

27 minutes ago, Muon N' said:

Would it be capacitance?

 

Hope not

It would have to be capacitance, although as far as I understand the foils in Mikes new cables are not laid upon each other so capacitance should be ok. 

 

The more accurate phrase would be "the Grandinote amp has trouble with Mikes cables" rather than vice versa.

[bhobba]

6 hours ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

What do you mean ?

 

At the moment they do not work - maybe high capacitance we do not know as yet.   He is investigating.   Keith's cables sound pretty good though - so since my cables were getting old decided to get some new ones.  Will be taking them down to Mikes today so they can be put into the system for the GTG and thoroughly burnt in.  These include 3 power cables - the amp is literally two monoblocks with two power cable inlets.

 

Thanks

Bill

Edited July 13, 2018 by bhobba

[sir sanders zingmore]

23 minutes ago, bhobba said:

 

6 hours ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

What do you mean ?

 

At the moment they do not work

 

What do you mean when you say they do not work?

theres no sound? The sound is no good? The amps blow up? 

[bhobba]

2 hours ago, pete_mac said:

There were some previous well-documented discussions on the design and legality of the cable, including a number of photos showing a disassembled cable and the construction method.

 

Investigations suggested that she's a length of multi-core SY industrial cable wired in accordance with Keith's 'Eichmann Ratio' which is based around thicker negative/neutral conductors (hence the multi-core SY cable with several conductors bunched for the neutral wire) and finished off with custom-ordered plugs from Wonplug in China.

 

I have no idea how they are made - Keith has some white papers on his site - but that's all I know.

 

Now if anyone is worried they are illegal, posting here to warn people is OK.   The maker and some people I know to be professionally qualified, including engineers and electricians, claim otherwise.  What do you do in that case?   The maker believes he is legal, professionals I know say its legal, but some people here do not.  That really is as far as it can go on a forum like this.   Those people that believe its illegal should go to the authorities such as consumer protection, not jump up and down about it on this forum.  If it is illegal then the damage done to Keith's reputation will be great - he may even go bankrupt.   This is a thing that should not be discussed here - its a legal matter - and should be handled that way.

 

All that will happen is each side will retreat to their entrenched positions and nothing will be gained except a thread of little value.  This is a legal matter - if true it would be fraud, and all sorts of things.   We are not the appropriate place to take action on such issues.

 

Its a product freely available in the market place and that's how it should be discussed here.

 

Thanks

Bill

 

 

 

Edited July 13, 2018 by bhobba

[bhobba]

1 hour ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

What do you mean when you say they do not work?

theres no sound? The sound is no good? The amps blow up? 

 

Yes - no sound.   The distributer bought them to Mike and he connected them up - nothing - zilch.  He is using some interim cables right now.   Even with those it is still the best I have heard.

 

Thanks

Bill

Edited July 13, 2018 by bhobba

[sir sanders zingmore]

11 minutes ago, bhobba said:

 

I have no idea how they are made - Keith as some white papers on his site - but that's all I know.

 

Now if anyone is worried they are illegal, posting here to warn people is OK.   The maker and some people I know to be professionally qualified, including engineers and electricians, claim otherwise.  What do you do in that case?   The maker believes he is legal, professionals I know say its legal, but some people here do not.  That really is as far as it can go on a forum like this.   Those people that believe its illegal should go to the authorities such as consumer protection, not jump up and down about it on this forum.  If it is illegal then the damage done to Keith's reputation will be great - he may even go bankrupt.   This is a thing that should not be discussed here - its a legal matter - and should be handled that way.

 

All that will happen is each side will retreat to their entrenched positions and nothing will be gained except a thread of little value.  This is a legal matter - if true it would be fraud, and all sorts of things.   We are not the appropriate place to take action on such issues.

 

Its a product freely available in the market place and that's how it should be discussed here.

 

Thanks

Bill

 

 

 

Surely it’s just a matter of getting them certified. Job done, everyone happy 

[pete_mac]

19 minutes ago, bhobba said:

 

I have no idea how they are made - Keith as some white papers on his site - but that's all I know.

 

Now if anyone is worried they are illegal, posting here to warn people is OK.   The maker and some people I know to be professionally qualified, including engineers and electricians, claim otherwise.  What do you do in that case?   The maker believes he is legal, professionals I know say its legal, but some people here do not.  That really is as far as it can go on a forum like this.   Those people that believe its illegal should go to the authorities such as consumer protection, not jump up and down about it on this forum.  If it is illegal than the damage done to Keith's reputation will be great - he may even go bankrupt.   This is a thing that should not be discussed here - its a legal matter - and should be handled that way.

 

All that will happen is each side will retreat to their entrenched positions and nothing will be gained except a thread of little value.  This is a legal matter - if true it would be fraud, and all sorts of things.   We are not the appropriate place to take action on such issues.

 

Its a product freely available in the market place and that's how it should be discussed here.

 

Thanks

Bill

 

 

 

 

Bill, so you're suggesting that people cannot discuss the technical merits, design aspects, legalities etc of any product?

 

It makes no difference whether we are discussing the design elements of a product from a huge multi-national company or a smaller boutique supplier - by putting a product out onto the market, you are open to assessment and comment. It is incumbent upon the designer/manufacturer to cover all bases from a design and legality perspective. People should have the option of considering all available info on any product prior to purchase.

 

Re: the white papers... Sorry, but I take those with a grain of salt. Once bitten, twice shy, given the justification he used for the 'PureSilver TM' conductors in his KLE connectors which were revealed to be silver plated copper...

 

 

 

 

Edited July 13, 2018 by pete_mac

[bhobba]

42 minutes ago, acg said:

It would have to be capacitance, although as far as I understand the foils in Mikes new cables are not laid upon each other so capacitance should be ok. The more accurate phrase would be "the Grandinote amp has trouble with Mikes cables" rather than vice versa.

I have had other amps with problems with Mike's cables.   Mike actually rang the amp maker who said no, no - do not connect such cables to this amp.   It is a FET design with a bandwidth well into the Mhz.   Greater than usual capacitance (Mikes cables are ribbon design so naturally have higher than normal capacitance) it will occilate - and that is what it did.  Why do they design amps like that - it gives a higher slew rate.  What is going on here - that requires futrher investigation - but I would say probably capacitance.

 

I must say only that I ever owned had this problem - so its rare.   I think the guy has gone out of business, but will remain nameless.

 

Thanks

Bill

[bhobba]

31 minutes ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

Surely it’s just a matter of getting them certified. Job done, everyone happy 

That's the issue - people here claim they are not certified.  Keith, Rawl99 who is a professional engineer with a day job of installing Hi End gear (yes strange job for a qualified engineer - but he is bitten by the audio bug) says they are, and an electrician that works with Rawl says they are.   I have no doubt Rawl would have used them in some of his installations.  It's hard to believe all of them made a mistake.

 

I must mention my father was also a qualified electrician - he was an electrical estimator and dealt with this sort of stuff all the time, but didn't actually do it for years.   Now this is many years old - he is long retired and dead, but if licenced professionals like electricians allowed by law to do this sort of thing (technically until a few years ago it was illegal to change a light-bulb - but people did it anyway - strange bit of trivia) they can be in a bit of deep do do.  My father was getting on in years and decided to install circuit breakers in our house instead of fuses.   Being a qualified electrician he could do that but hadn't done such things in years.   It had to be inspected afterwards.   The inspector was in fact a friend of our family and told mum - dad did a bit of an iffy job - he will pass it - but please ask him not to do things like this in the future - he could put his licence in jeopardy.

 

Thanks

Bill

Edited July 13, 2018 by bhobba

[sir sanders zingmore]

13 minutes ago, bhobba said:

I have had other amps with problems with Mike's cables.   Mike actually rang the amp maker who said no, no - do not connect such cables to this amp.   It is a FET design with a bandwidth well into the Mhz.   Greater than usual capacitance (Mikes cables are ribbon design so naturally have higher than normal capacitance) it will occilate - and that is what it did.  Why do they design amps like that - it gives a higher slew rate.  What is going on here - that requires futrher investigation - but I would say probably capacitance.

 

I must say only that I ever owned had this problem - so its rare.   I think the guy has gone out of business, but will remain nameless.

 

Thanks

Bill

I think that’s a common issue with very high bandwidth amps. I’ve seen similar comments regarding Karan and Spectral amps, but in those cases the manufacturers state quite clearly that certain cables are not suitable. 

[bhobba]

1 hour ago, pete_mac said:

Bill, so you're suggesting that people cannot discuss the technical merits, design aspects, legalities etc of any product?

I am suggesting where legal matters are involved this is not the appropriate forum.   Do what you like - it's the mods that make such decisions.

 

But once it gets into where the law is involved it is wise we stay clear of it - it's not what this forum is about.   It has been mentioned in may be illegal.   That's fine - but any more than that may expose this forum to legal problems.   If you are concerned about the cable not being compliant with the law there are legal avenues for you to pursue.  I have stated I have been assured by people who should know they are - that's enough for me.

 

Added Later

Of course any other issue such as the wire he uses etc is fair game.   Comment about it until the cows come home.  But legal issues are iffy.

 

Thanks

Bill

Edited July 13, 2018 by bhobba

[Full Range]

I have met both Bill and Keith at get togethers on a few occasions 

Both are passionate about sound and both have a very good ear 

 

Have tried a few interconnect cables from KLE and Geoff @gmdb

Both performed well and use a mixture of both brands in my system for different amps 

 

As for Power cables I had some professionally made to suit my system 

@acg put me onto some industrial cable makers locally and went in that direction 

 

 

 

Edited July 13, 2018 by Full Range

[bhobba]

31 minutes ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

I think that’s a common issue with very high bandwidth amps. I’ve seen similar comments regarding Karan and Spectral amps, but in those cases the manufacturers state quite clearly that certain cables are not suitable. 

It is.   The amp I had issues with was actually a nice sounding amp - but it had that problem freely admitted to by the designer.   It may have even been in the instructions - but who reads those?  You should of course - but many skip it.  As far as the Grandinote goes it was put into Mikes system by the distributor who should have been aware of it - so it may be something else - or just a time poor distributor who also didnt read the user manual.

 

Thanks

Bill 

 

 

[bhobba]

22 minutes ago, Full Range said:

I have met both Bill and Keith at get together son a few occasions 

Both are passionate about sound and both have a very good ear 

Thanks mate - but let me assure you Mike Lenehan, Keith Eichmann and Ralw99 have ears that make mine like lead.  I have seen all of them perform feats that make my mind boggle.   For example Mike will say a speaker is 2 db down here - measure it and guess what - its 2 db down where he said.   I have seen Rawl at a blind DAC listening session pick what each DAC was and in correct order.   Only 2 people got it right - I was way off.   Mike mentioned a prototype speaker he was working on had an issue - a prize (a chocolate I seem to recall) to anyone that can pick it.   There were a number of audiophiles there - I couldn't pick it - Keith said straight away - the mid-range is off.   He got the chocolate.  It is very humbling.

 

Thanks

Bill

Edited July 13, 2018 by bhobba

[Full Range]

6 minutes ago, bhobba said:

 

Thanks mate - but let me assure you Mike Lenehan, Keith Eichmann and Ralw99 have ears that make mine like lead.  I have seen all of them perform feats that make my mind boggle.   For example Mike will say a speaker is 2 db down here - measure it and guess what - its 2 db down where he said.   I have seen Rawl at a blind DAC listening session pick what each DAC was and in correct order.   Only 2 people got it right - I was way off.   Mike mentioned a prototype speaker he was working on had an issue - a prize (a chocolate I seem to recall) to anyone that can pick it.   There were a number of audiophiles there - I couldn't pick it - Keith said straight away - the mid-range is off.   He got the chocolate.  It is very humbling.

 

Thanks

Bill

 

I am one of those people that can pick an issue or a change in tone where others can’t 

Think that may come from my past, where I was a free roadie for a friends band 

I mixed the sound and I tuned the instruments 

They always said that the output sound was 100% better when I did it 

 

You and I conversed about Steve’s horn speakers at length even to the point of the importance of the listening position 

 

Keith has visited and listened to my system and we both concurred on every point 

Geoff has also visited and listened to my system and he also has a great ear 

 

Think I made a post on my system thread about the visits 

 

Ohh and my power cables brand are 

Bambach cables - similar to this model 

http://www.bambachcables.com.au/products/Vari-Flex-copy

 

 

 

[acg]

1 hour ago, Full Range said:

Ohh and my power cables brand are 

Bambach cables - similar to this model 

http://www.bambachcables.com.au/products/Vari-Flex-copy

 

 

That Bambach wire is actually drawn in Bris Vegas...how's that for keeping it local!

[rantan]

7 hours ago, pete_mac said:

 

 

 

Re: the white papers... Sorry, but I take those with a grain of salt. Once bitten, twice shy, given the justification he used for the 'PureSilver TM' conductors in his KLE connectors which were revealed to be silver plated copper...

 

 

 

 

 

Exactly correct Pete.

Anything that is published or cited by KLEI is suspect iMO and the white paper has no intellectual rigour at all.

[Guest gmdb]

I might be reading this thread wrong and the original post but I have picked up major criticism in the posts of Mike Lenehan.  e.g. he couldn't develop a power cable. His speaker cables wouldn't work with Grandinote.  The Curious USB cable which Mike has promoted probably isn't as good as the KLEI etc.  And then suggesting all the issues with the Grandinote were somehow Mike Lenehan's fault, and not the makers for not offering full disclosure about how their amp works.  

 

Mike Lenehan from what I have seen offers full disclosure about his products as I do myself.  Neither KLEI or Grandinote do this.  Their websites are wrapped up in a pseudo-scientific gobbly-**** language that doesn't explain what they actually do.   

 

SNA has been very big on educating members about power cables and the Australian requirements that apply.  I have learnt a lot from member posts and the stickies that have been presented.  So much so that I have no interest in selling power cables.

 

Truth in advertising is something that should apply to the audio world like any other market.

 

 

[rantan]

4 minutes ago, gmdb said:

 

 

Mike Lenehan from what I have seen offers full disclosure about his products as I do myself.  Neither KLEI or Grandinote do this.  Their websites are wrapped up in a pseudo-scientific gobbly-**** language that doesn't explain what they actually do.   

 

 

 

Truth in advertising is something that should apply to the audio world like any other market.

 

 

 

100% correct Geoff and I really don't know why audio seems to be ( apparently ) different to any other market.