Perils of focusing too much on gear

[bzr]

7 minutes ago, Wimbo said:

Stanley Clarkes playing live on my system in the other room and I'm tapping my foot while typing. Bought that one the other day off @progladyte. Just orderd The Who's "Whos Next".

Dont need streaming, Still trying to get into the 80's and 90's.

I just bought enough cd's off of amazon last week to give me 3 years of subscription to full hd files through Tidal, of which I can play those files files anywhere anytime. I'm hearing you, but jeez, I'm starting to wonder because I'll probably do it all again in another few months.......

[Spinnergeoff]

Stanley Clarke - very good.

[Wimbo]

26 minutes ago, bzr said:

I just bought enough cd's off of amazon last week to give me 3 years of subscription to full hd files through Tidal, of which I can play those files files anywhere anytime. I'm hearing you, but jeez, I'm starting to wonder because I'll probably do it all again in another few months.......

I like to listen to stuff I remember that I liked only. I like Nivana but havent got there yet. A lot of listening to do in my last 20 years, Xfingers.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Wimbo

[Wimbo]

4 minutes ago, Spinnergeoff said:

Stanley Clarke - very good.

Yeah, got the Chic Corea/Return to Forever duo album as well.

[sjay]

1 hour ago, bzr said:

That'd be why you haven't felt the need to reply to all else in this thread then.... , you are indeed enlightened

I think my collection of vinyl is worth about the same or slightly more then my rig. trouble is the collection keeps going up in value but the rig tends to go down

[JSmith]

1 hour ago, Happy said:

And I think you are imagining this lady’s reaction.

Nope... real world situation for me, she thought "wtf did he just say?". I cleared it up in moments of course... but next time I'll just be saying I'm into music and audio-visual equipment.

 

I feel -phile and enthusiast are interchangeable in this case, YMMV.

 

Self titles are a bit weak anyway surely?

 

I think some fall into the peril of buying too much of everything, equipment and music. I personally am much more cautious with my cashola... but still ensure I have the things I like, within reason. This of course varies immensely between enthusiasts... as it should.

 

JSmith

[MLXXX]

9 hours ago, pine weasel said:

Given that this is a hobby  that most of us do for fun, does it really matter how we enjoy it?

 

I don't see any real difference between having a million dollar system and 10 albums, or 20 000 albums and a system that you found dumped by the side of the road, as long as you're having fun.

 

Why is music somehow inherently better or more worthy than equipment?

Having joined this forum only recently I don't have a gut feeling whether more people  here would be in the group who believe building up a hi-fi system is an end in itself, with pleasure to be derived from experimenting with and collecting gear, or whether more would be in the group who regard their hi-fi system as first and foremost a way to listen to music with better quality (with any fun from experimenting with different options merely incidental).  Perhaps a fair percentage of some of the very active contributors are in the first group. I suspect a large number are in the second group. Has there been a poll thread on this?  

 

I myself fall into the second group. I acquire audio gear not for the purpose of building up a collection of audio gear, or to get a thrill out of comparing different systems, but for the clear dominant purpose of enabling me (and anyone else who might listen to my setup)  the opportunity to hear recordings of musical performances reproduced clearly, with details audible, and without excessive distortion or colouration. My interests are primarily in classical instrumental music and opera. I also enjoy home theatre, listening to the lush orchestral sounds that are still very much to the fore in films (regardless of genre) released on Blu-ray.  

 

Why is music somehow inherently better or more worthy than equipment?

A difficult question to answer. Is collecting stamps "worthy"? Is playing poker machines "worthy"? Is playing golf "worthy"?

 

I find listening to music stimulating to the intellect and the emotions. It can be a way of getting in touch with the humanity of the composer or the artists performing the work particularly if you follow that composer or those artists for a period of time. I think a lot of  people develop a taste for particular genres and musicians.  The ability to appreciate music grows the more one is exposed to it.

 

Some people with the talent and opportunity end up composing and/or performing music, after listening to recordings, attending concerts, or even undertaking formal study, thus advancing human musical culture. 

 

I find listening to music provides me with enjoyment.  Perhaps casually listening to music is not "worthy" but merely "enjoyable". 

[cwt]

On ‎18‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 12:42 PM, MLXXX said:

I guess the question the audiophile today needs to ask themselves is that if they have some very old vinyl discs  that have not been reissued in a digital form just how much money should they spend to wring out the last drop of audio quality. Theoretically a disc restoration service could use a scanning electron microscope or some other extremely advanced technology to read undulations in a mechanical groove in a vinyl pressing to perfection (if the original recording master used to cut the disc used to create the vinyl pressing were unavailable) but they'd still be stuck with the quality loss that the cutting process had introduced, losses in the pressing process, and wear from any earlier conventional playing of the disc. These losses would be on top of other quality limitations of the early era recording (such as the microphones, pre-amplifiers, mixing console, magnetic tape recording and playback processes, cutting head amplifier, etc).   

Interesting perspective MLXXX and it made me recall the very early days of the cd player when a very expensive laser turntable 1st appeared . I see the logic behind it hasn't ebbed as they are still available albeit still exxy ; around 20k if music not equipment is the aim here [to paraphrase]  ; not mutually exclusive to an extent as who here would not be intrigued to hear a laser tt ;even at these rarefied prices 

1. The laser picks up all of the audio signals in the groove, lower signal through higher as it is.
2. This results in laser sound quality that is quite similar to the original sound in the recording's master tape. Most of people never get to hear the master tapes, but with the Laser Turntable, you get comparable quality, as acknowledged by Professional Sound Recording Engineers in Japan.

   http://elpj.com/ltfeaturesandspecs/

 

Edited October 19, 2017 by cwt

[Happy]

@MLXXX i gues i am in the second group roughly too but that doesn’t make me feel that my way is superior to the other. There’s just no inherent superiority at all. It’s all just self indulgent hobbies. 

[MLXXX]

6 hours ago, cwt said:

• The laser picks up all of the audio signals in the groove, lower signal through higher as it is.
• This results in laser sound quality that is quite similar to the original sound in the recording's master tape. Most of people never get to hear the master tapes, but with the Laser Turntable, you get comparable quality, as acknowledged by Professional Sound Recording Engineers in Japan.

Regarding your second dot point, the original master tapes being from the pre-digital era, or the early digital era, would very possibly no longer exist and so a vinyl pressing, or a metal stamping disc used to mass produce vinyl discs, may be the only surviving way to access the recording mastered to magnetic tape. A similar situation exists with mid-20th century feature films where the best remaining quality version of the film may exist  as a multi-generation release print distributed to theatres, or a show print  created directly from composited negatives, but not the actual negatives.

 

As for the claim by Professional Sound Recording Engineers in Japan have they, or the manufacturer of the laser disc player,  actually released an example for consumers to hear for themselves,  i.e. a digital version from playing back a track on the magnetic tape master and a digital version of the same track from playing back the vinyl disc? I'd assume they'd sound rather different and would not be at all difficult to distinguish in a double blind test, even though some people might be of the opinion that the two versions were of "comparable quality".

 

Only the other day I was looking for this type of thing for the modern era (given the resurgence in vinyl pressings) i.e. a digital copy of a track direct from a 21st century digital master compared with a digital capture of the same tracks as played back using a modern high quality turntable and cartridge from a high quality demonstration vinyl disc. I'd be interested in hearing the extent of difference in the sound. Would the two versions be of "comparable quality"? 

 

This post may seem a bit off-topic, but the angle I'm exploring is the logic behind spending vast sums of money to extract the last drop of audio quality from an old vinyl disc when the audio quality even of the magnetic tape master would not have been up to modern standards. It may be that the money is being spent out of nostalgic reverence for old recordings, or alternatively merely as an exercise in the collection of gear as an end in itself.

 

@Happy has reminded us that some people do simply indulge themselves by acquiring gear.

Edited October 19, 2017 by MLXXX

[allthumbs]

 

 

[JSmith]

1 hour ago, MLXXX said:

to extract the last drop of audio quality from an old vinyl disc when the audio quality even of the magnetic tape master would not have been up to modern standards.

Exactly... I love listening to a record, but am well aware of the format's limitations compared to any digital medium that is not heavily compressed. To expect sonic perfection from a record is surely an exercise in futility, amazing equipment or not and potential mastering differences aside.

 

JSmith 

[JSmith]

7 hours ago, cwt said:

1. Professional Sound Recording Engineers in Japan.

   http://elpj.com/ltfeaturesandspecs/

Damn... that is very interesting.

 

JSmith 

[Martykt]

6 minutes ago, JSmith said:

Exactly... I love listening to a record, but am well aware of the format's limitations compared to any digital medium that is not heavily compressed. To expect sonic perfection from a record is surely an exercise in futility, amazing equipment or not and potential mastering differences aside.

 

JSmith 

 

Did this thread just become a digital vs vinyl debate.....  

 

........ 

[keyse1]

21 hours ago, Happy said:

there is nothing objective or logical in your arguments. i see that 'for you' subjectively it is silly, but that's just you and the like minded people's personal preference.

Look at it this way

for the purpose of discussion if 90 percent of the worlds population listens to music in some way only about 1 percent become fanatics and sit in front of stereo systems and listen

im one of the 1 percent as are I assume the other people that post here 

my experience that music is emotional is universal I think

nor is anything I say different other than in the expression of it

teenagers fall in love with music and then spend decades through all their economic ladders  buying systems to make that music sound as good as it possibly can

but very much doubt that anyone loses sight of the magic that songs create in and around their lives

as to subjectivity and objectivity I see and hear music first and foremost as an emotional force and in my experience interlectuallising emotions will leave you with none

or in this case listening to electronics

 

[Happy]

Just now, keyse1 said:

Look at it this way

for the purpose of discussion if 90 percent of the worlds population listens to music in some way only about 1 percent become fanatics and sit in front of stereo systems and listen

im one of the 1 percent as are I assume the other people that post here 

my experience that music is emotional is universal I think

nor is anything I say different other than in the expression of it

teenagers fall in love with music and then spend decades through all their economic ladders  buying systems to make that music sound as good as it possibly can

but very much doubt that anyone loses sight of the magic that songs create in and around their lives

as to subjectivity and objectivity I see and hear music first and foremost as an emotional force and in my experience interlectuallising emotions will leave you with none

or in this case listening to electronics

 

and look at it this way. all that emotion etc stuff is all very nice. but what if a person feels the same way about collecting gear? what's wrong with that? and why does it have to be deplored? it's not like the person is harming anyone. nor is it the case those who prioritise listening to music is doing anyone else any particular favour either (hence not saving humanity comment). 

 

im not talking down listening to music. i just don't see how that should have any inherent superiority/priority over collecting gear. at the end of the day you're just pleasing yourself both ways.

[AudioGeek]

25 minutes ago, Happy said:

and look at it this way. all that emotion etc stuff is all very nice. but what if a person feels the same way about collecting gear? what's wrong with that? and why does it have to be deplored? it's not like the person is harming anyone. nor is it the case those who prioritise listening to music is doing anyone else any particular favour either (hence not saving humanity comment). 

 

im not talking down listening to music. i just don't see how that should have any inherent superiority/priority over collecting gear. at the end of the day you're just pleasing yourself both ways.

Probably, most people on here do both - collect gear and listen to music. You can add read books, engage in political discussion, drink whisky and drive fast cars (ZB)....

[keyse1]

22 minutes ago, Happy said:

and look at it this way. all that emotion etc stuff is all very nice. but what if a person feels the same way about collecting gear? what's wrong with that? and why does it have to be deplored? it's not like the person is harming anyone. nor is it the case those who prioritise listening to music is doing anyone else any particular favour either (hence not saving humanity comment). 

 

im not talking down listening to music. i just don't see how that should have any inherent superiority/priority over collecting gear. at the end of the day you're just pleasing yourself both ways.

But who is criticising someone who loves loves their stereo

is that me specifically or in general

i love mine just as much as anyone else loves their’s(right word?)

nor do I feel superior to anyone(unless they like Led Zepplin or Pink Floyd)

dont take this too seriously 

it’s not seriously important but it is interesting 

the subject that is

 

[Happy]

Just now, keyse1 said:

But who is criticising someone who loves loves their stereo

is that me specifically or in general

i love mine just as much as anyone else loves their’s(right word?)

nor do I feel superior to anyone(unless they like Led Zepplin or Pink Floyd)

dont take this too seriously 

it’s not seriously important but it is interesting 

the subject that is

 

Well it all started with this

Quote

Acquiring playback equipment is a means to an end -- the appreciation and enjoyment of music. We need to guard against it becoming an end in itself (or even an obsession). 

Quote

Um, why?

 

Some people collect sneakers that they will never wear. I don't see what's so different here.

'guard against' strongly implies focusing on gear is to be criticised and avoided.

 

it looks as though i'm being very serious because otherwise it's hard to get my point conveyed. i'm just having an interesting discussion, just as you are. 

[Happy]

12 minutes ago, AudioGeek said:

Probably, most people on here do both - collect gear and listen to music. You can add read books, engage in political discussion, drink whisky and drive fast cars (ZB)....

oftentimes you run into those types who seem upset that people on audio forums focus too much on the gear. well, duh, what are you doing on an audio forum then....

[MLXXX]

5 hours ago, Happy said:

but what if a person feels the same way about collecting gear? what's wrong with that? and why does it have to be deplored?

Well if a man outright told his wife and his friends that he doesn't actually buy audio gear to listen to music, but  because he has a fetish for acquiring hi-fi gear and that is why he has spent $50,000 in one year gear, he might be queried or even ridiculed.  Just as a woman who spent $50,000 in one year on handbags she didn't intend to use but simply to add to her collection of handbags, might be criticized.

 

But if the man honestly told family and friends that he was in pursuit of the very highest audio quality and he honestly believed it had been necessary to spend $50,000 to achieve that and that in fact music meant a great deal to him, and that he honestly felt he could hear a difference with more expensive gear; his friends and family might still query the extravagant outlay, but they would probably be far more understanding and far less critical.

 

What can happen though is that a person who knows they are a fetishist, can pretend to be a true believer. If they pretend to be a true music lover in conversations with family and friends, they may avoid or lessen criticism, and it is perhaps understandable they wish to hide their fetish interest.   Another example of such behaviour would be the gambler who enjoys playing poker machines and in a one year period makes a loss of $50,000. He or she may prefer to say that they had made a donation to charity, to explain a drop in a bank account balance. It is human nature to hide from criticism.  And of course @Happy it is perfectly reasonable to argue that the person was indeed entitled to enjoy themselves playing poker machines, and as long as the net outgoing of $50,000 harmed no-one, it is just as worthy as, say, buying a small yacht. 

 

But if a person starts waxing lyrical on a forum like this about esoteric expensive gear without any true belief it actually sounds noticeably better, or being reckless with the truth as to whether it does or doesn't sound better, then that could be expected to deceive forum members who read their posts at face value, on the assumption they were written honestly and in good faith. And I would suggest it pretty obviously is not "worthy" behaviour to make posts that are knowingly false, or recklessly false, and which may encourage others to spend large sums of money but not actually obtain the marvelous hi-fi experience of noticeably improved sound quality they expected they would obtain.

Edited October 20, 2017 by MLXXX

[Happy]

@MLXXX  sorry but there seems a lot of ifs and maybes in your examples to the extent they don't seem to provide any useful comparisons. you seem to have a certain type of family members in your examples, which would have a very narrow application. and you're also assuming people all have wives and SOs, which is not always the case. and, hey, we think spending $500 on a turntable or a CD player is an entry move. my friends think that's nuts.

 

the last paragraph is lost on me....relevance?

 

 

[Guest Hensa]

I have plenty of mates that share the passion of listening to music but with no interest in the pursuit of high quality sound reproduction. On the flip side, I can't think of anyone I know that has a dislike of listening to music yet has an interest in the pursuit of good audio quality. In saying that, listening to music is less a hobby and more an intrinsic part of life for me and many of my friends. The pursuit of good audio playback quality is purely a hobby; If I lost interest in the hobby, as one can do, I'd still be listening to the music any way I could.

 

I do kind of get Happy's point. People can be almost condescending with their references to being "not interested in the gear because it's all about the music". While I agree that it's "all about the music", what's wrong with the music sounding great as well as being great! The pursuit of an excellent audio system, within your own personal budget constraints, is an enjoyable hobby and the fact that it can also be an enabler to get even more enjoyment out of your passion for music makes it all the better!

Edited October 20, 2017 by Hensa

[Happy]

@Hensa but don't you run into people who have lost interest in listening to music especially as you grow older? i've seen MANY examples to the point it is almost more difficult to find those who actually spend time on listening to music only. 

[AudioGeek]

This place is a traditional gathering of grumpy old men. "clearly my vice is nobler than your vice..."

 

No one should spend $50k on gear based on the online comments of a stranger. Discretion is required, and I am pretty sure anyone on here recommending gear would suggest an audition first. Its one on the mantras of this place.

The question of value is all relative. Many of the guys are well within their capacity to do so when they drop $50k on gear. Others I know though I was crazy spending $2k on a dac. But why feel the need to judge?