15 hours ago, said:

centre speaker is THE no 1 most important speaker in a system

A phantom centre (i.e. L & R without a centre) is also an option if one sits in the sweet spot.

A standard speaker can also be used as a centre in a vertical position and even some centres perform better vertically. This can make placement difficult though!

JSmith 

7 minutes ago, Chopsus said:

Has anyone here had any success with a Phantom Center?

Yep.

Need to be in the sweet spot as mentioned... works for some, some don't like it that are used to a high quality centre. YMMV.

JSmith 

2 hours ago, Blackman1503561291 said:

That all will be fixed with the Re-fit, Just don't want to forget anything so I'm writing all Down to do. A Big Compromise a SATELLITE Tv room with a Picture threatre.

cool, then since you have asked for suggestions, one i was going to make was to experiment with (as suggested below) removing the centre altogether and having the mains as the dialogue speakers, utilising stereo imaging, that still gives a pretty good soundstage

 

however ...

1 hour ago, JSmith said:

A phantom centre (i.e. L & R without a centre) is also an option if one sits in the sweet spot.

A standard speaker can also be used as a centre in a vertical position and even some centres perform better vertically. This can make placement difficult though!

JSmith 

we must be co-joined mentally LoL

stereo imaging takes care of direction of sound source and i think you would get a wider soundstage with 2 speakers say 4-5 metres apart than a single sweet spot centre

 

59 minutes ago, Chopsus said:

Has anyone here had any success with a Phantom Center?

It's often touted as a solution, but whenever I have come across it, including trying it myself, it has always seemed hollow when it came to dialog.

Curious to hear of anyone who has found otherwise.

I suspect seating position becomes even more important when relying on just L/R channels and this is why having a center channel is more effective for most of the room.

Success? yes, varied success

I have experimented, however in my set-up the centre is Mission M5C, pretty good on its own, but the mains are Orpheus Auroa 2, much better though, so when i switched to "no centre" obviously the Auroras now gave twice the output and the sound actually improved considerably. I thought i was onto something there. Stands to reason that if you have two speakers with better frequency response doing the work than the one single smaller speaker doing the work and the better speakers relegated to light vioilin sounds or the odd helicopter sound, that it would sound deeper, clearer and with a better response. Stereo imaging takes care of directing the sound towards the centre, and anything encoded to the left or right, still goes there

until i also found that with some movies, the actual encoding varied and in some cases it didnt sound as good, for some strange reason

tried a few different movies, and despite the majority of them sounding better being driven by two Auroras, one or two movies it actually flattened the sound, or in some cases reduced the clarity. Bizzare, but thats what i found

 

however the caveat with my experiment was, as i said, a different centre speaker to the mains, it would be interesting to replicate the experiment where all 3 front stage speakers are identical, such as B&W FPM

I would imagine it would return similar results, two mains with stereo imaging has to be better than one centre and two effects speakers, until you whack on a crappily encoded disc which throws the physics book out the window

 

 

 

ah yes, the vertically horizontally reclined position

the most important position in any modern society

need to always take that into account

 

Edited February 10, 20179 yr by mello yello

25 minutes ago, mello yello said:

ah yes, the vertically reclined position

I'm horizontally inclined myself.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

1 hour ago, Chopsus said:

 

I would generally agree with this, but if watching from a reclined position, as most HT Seats are now, you need to also take into account the angle of your eye-line which will require a high screen position for comfortable viewing.

The bottom of both my LCD and projector screen is @ 92 cms for this reason.

Not sure I see it. If you check the geometry any slight back tilt of the head would create a huge shift up the wall for a straight line of sight. Also people in recliners tend to still have their head propped up and facing level still. Just don't see it as a very tight equation. As you say possibly go a bit higher if you have a recliner.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

22 minutes ago, pgdownload said:

I'm horizontally inclined myself.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

good pick up LoL

3 hours ago, Blackman1503561291 said:

The Centre speakers make no difference and generally the sound cannot hear where it coming from (front only) but surely you would say If we a have a smaller TV and if I have it lower TV you would not think surely I would not leave the Speaker up there all by itself. We are talking about the TV and the Centre Channel is another issue I will fix. When ever we get the TV (Now minus $1000 due to the thieving Vet Bills) it will take me 2 weeks if not more to get it all going because when I do things I really do it 100%.

Also I have to Change The satellite side Because of fitting UHD Sat  boxe (The 4K Ultimate Duo). Yes our TV room is Extremely Complicate that requires a Dedicated Computer Room with Two Dedicated 2 i7 Computer with GPU 980 cards + all the Goodies in it controlling 9 Satellite Dishes that have over 2000 Channels. just look at our TV with the Hecto in the middle and imagine 2.4 meters of cabinets either side with full of boxes and monitors.

Whenever I do things I do it extreme. I doubt it that anyone has a system at home complicated like me at home and just think is ALL works 100% OK.

Yeah the Centre Speaker is easy fix but I thinking of putting a Very low line cabinets (might have to get it Made)  under the New TV for more decoders and at the same time house the centre channel.

Interesting times Ahead and I thank whoever that the Stroke has not damages my thinking powers.

 

I would love to put a Photo of our Complete TV Room (Camera Not wide enought at 5M away to take complete shot) but AN AR.SE copied the photo on the internet and told others that this is his TV ROOM !!!!!!!!!!

yes centre speaker is a very easy fix Bman. and something well worth doing ! and bears consideration when positioning screens. crucial I would say. and this goes whether a little screen or big  I say this as I myself run two screens a 50" and larger 92" both with the centre speaker in the same place directly below... but not placed so high its firing at the rafters and so low its firing at the shins. having upgraded centres I do know its the most important of speakers in a surround setup. and position position position is the most important thing with any speakers let alone THE most important one.

I've seen far too many rooms where postioning of the screen and screen selection has compromised severely the centre speaker and where possibly it could go. hopefully something can be factored in your screen positioning ...and particularly to if plan on going for any cabinets to allow for where the centre speaker will end up with respect to the screen  they go hand in hand the picture ...with the sound. 

2 hours ago, JSmith said:

A phantom centre (i.e. L & R without a centre) is also an option if one sits in the sweet spot.

A standard speaker can also be used as a centre in a vertical position and even some centres perform better vertically. This can make placement difficult though!

JSmith 

unfortunately a phantom speaker will never replace an actual speaker in its place. phantom speakers go back to the day of pro logic where there weren't actual discrete surround tracks and channels and surround and centre info was distilled out. these days we have discrete channels and this really makes quite a difference in actually fact having discrete speakers to reproduce for best effect. phantom modes as well are pretty awful for what they do and completely destroy the pans and surround steering around the room across the front stage.

with using actual standard speakers as centres ... yes this works perfectly well. indeed if say using two stand mounts or floor standers as fronts then an identical standmount or floor stander speaker as centre will work stunningly well.. though not something everyone can accomodate. there are some centre speakers too eg those with the MTM driver arrangement that will likely find work actually better not lying down as a centre but standing up...but not something everyone can fit in. its why the best centres have a W T/M W driver arrangement with the vertically aligned T/M giving the sonic end result for not only vocal clarity but for dispersion either side of centre.

What I want to do is use the Centre Speaker as I was thinking of removing it and using the Left and right main as dialog but I don't want to do it so If I use the Centre Speaker under the centre of the TV and Also I will be able to Hide the IR Repeaters wiring with it.

The IR Repeater Left Sensor for the left cabinet and the IR right for the Right cabinet and all cables can be hidden in the wall. Thinking, thinking and Thinking you wonder why I don't Sleep well. The Only problem with this is the new Cabinet underneath the TV I would live to make or get made a black particle Chip Board with glass front housing the centre speaker.

I can fit the Speaker underneath temporary and After 6 months off rest I can inquiring to be made a special Cabinet so all I have to do is plaster the small hole (good at doing this) and take the cables out the Bottom wall plate and fix it into the Cabinet. Nothing is Impossible except for eating cheap for saving money. Once this project is finished (after buying the Pana 4K Player) I and the wife is going out for FOOD !!!

How many here that has a Wife that love this **** that we are involved with.

2 hours ago, Chopsus said:

Many many moons ago we had out TV at the 50cm height with recliners and we both would get sore necks ... worked out we were looking "down" at the screen ... raised it up to "seated head level" and found the neck issues went away as we were looking "straight" at the screen.

I would say that looking down is worse than looking up but.

I will end up with a setup that you will have to look up a LITTLE. (Top of the TV matching the Sonic Side monitors).

14 minutes ago, Chopsus said:

My wife tolerates my constant fiddling and perfecting quite well, I think because she appreciates and enjoys being able to watch so many movies with a setup superior to the local, country cinema.

Many of us are a tad obsessive though and I think our wives knew this long before a Home Theater appeared on the scene LOL!.

Mt wife 95% of the time helps me running wires and anything else to do with this Hobby  and other Hobby's so my Daughter. My 20 year old son is Useless than a Tits on a Bull. But the important part of this My wife Pays for most of it! yeah!!

My Daughter is a Good Worker, No problem crawling in the roof with me, no problem carrying two bags of cement one on each shoulder and she is great Digging a cubic Metre Hole for the Satellite Dishs and Mixing and filling the hole with Cement with a pole in the Middle.

I laugh as my Son Does what I classify a Womans Job and my daughter get in the thick of thing with real mens work.

Both The Women will be helping me doing this Job at the same time my Son will be washing the Dishes and doing the Cooking. LOL

Strange World We live in.

Edited February 10, 20179 yr by Blackman

1 hour ago, Blackman1503561291 said:

I would say that looking down is worse than looking up but.

I will end up with a setup that you will have to look up a LITTLE. (Top of the TV matching the Sonic Side monitors).

Try it. The head naturally looks down if you relax the neck muscles. Spend 15 minutes looking at a floor corner and then 15 minutes looking at a roof corner, I can guarantee which one will be harder.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

19 hours ago, said:

unfortunately a phantom speaker will never replace an actual speaker in its place. .

its not meant to replace it, its an option for those who have no other option and it does work

19 hours ago, said:

yes centre speaker is a very easy fix Bman. and something well worth doing ! and bears consideration when positioning screens. crucial I would say. and this goes whether a little screen or big  I say this as I myself run two screens a 50" and larger 92" both with the centre speaker in the same place directly below... but not placed so high its firing at the rafters and so low its firing at the shins. having upgraded centres I do know its the most important of speakers in a surround setup. and position position position is the most important thing with any speakers let alone THE most important one.

I've seen far too many rooms where postioning of the screen and screen selection has compromised severely the centre speaker and where possibly it could go. hopefully something can be factored in your screen positioning ...and particularly to if plan on going for any cabinets to allow for where the centre speaker will end up with respect to the screen  they go hand in hand the picture ...with the sound. 

if you want to approach it from a puritanical vewpoint and are still in the design stage then it would stand to reason that the centre speaker be placed behind the screen if that were the case

what are those perforated screens called ? Stewart ?

everything else would be a compromise, it just depends how much anyone would wish to compromise

14 hours ago, pgdownload said:

Try it. The head naturally looks down if you relax the neck muscles. Spend 15 minutes looking at a floor corner and then 15 minutes looking at a roof corner, I can guarantee which one will be harder.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

I have decided to have the new TV center 100MM only above my eye height so by this the Top of the TV will be the same as all the Monitors in the TV room.

 

9 minutes ago, Blackman1503561291 said:

I have decided to have the new TV center 100MM only above my eye height so by this the Top of the TV will be the same as all the Monitors in the TV room.

 

oh, o ...you cant do that

we havent heard from Owen yet lol

 

sometimes room aesthetics need to be considered as well, sounds like a tidy solution, Blackman

5 minutes ago, mello yello said:

oh, o ...you cant do that

we havent heard from Owen yet lol

 

sometimes room aesthetics need to be considered as well, sounds like a tidy solution, Blackman

Yes a lot comes into it but its compromise room full of everything that should not be in there. I have not seen Owen for while. Maybe he has another hobby.

3 minutes ago, Blackman1503561291 said:

Yes a lot comes into it but its compromise room full of everything that should not be in there. I have not seen Owen for while. Maybe he has another hobby.

naw he comes and goes hes alright, he has a very good technical knowledge, as do a lot of guys that are still here

me excluded lol

 

Edited February 11, 20179 yr by mello yello

On 11/02/2017 at 10:40 AM, mello yello said:

 

what are those perforated screens called ? Stewart ?

 

AT = Acoustic Transparent

31 minutes ago, jutta said:

AT = Acoustic Transparent

thanks Jutta

personally, as long as the sound is as close to the source as is physically (and maybe even aesthetically) possible then that is your Q point

Edited February 13, 20179 yr by mello yello