56oval Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 Can someone tell me what "commercial hifi" is and why its so bad? Nothing really but most tweaker system usually have some base product from the commercial sector because most of them don't have the gumption to design and build from scratch . Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myrantz Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 How do you know I haven't? Put it this way.. How do I know you have? Well we've met once so I can make an educated guess. That's a good start. But Mario didn't. He don't know you, and you him... So the best way to solve that is either he comes to you, or vice versa... He and you makes trips, so eventually you two will work itself out.. You are making some huge assumptions and have no basis for some of your statements Like it or not, we all make huge assumptions.. Given. s I said to MLXXX, me and him are really no different.. And that applies to everybody here. We have more in common than we realise (oh well, I did, he didn't)... He just don't care about it and insist on turning every stone and find something to argue about. I kid you not that I am outright dillusioned by the Internet community here.. MLXXX can call me a stirrer and that got Mello to highlight a whole big fricking list of stirrers that MLXXX somehow managed to ignore. Objectivity my foot. And then for the sake of argument let's just assume 56oval is on Mario's side. For old timers just imagine the kind of attacks one will leash at him if he did? Or terryj for that matter. The mob mentality is the worst thing to happen here (and no, me+Mario don't have enough numbers to be considered a mob ). No mario doesn't deserve kudos as he doesn't attempt to help and assumes he has a system that has no issues and anyone questioning him obviously has no idea about sound reproduction. Actually his systems has issues.... Tax from SNA visited his place and helped him improve his system. A lot of other people helped him along the way... And he guided others too (he helped to mod a fellow members amp a while back)... Just because nobody talks about it doesn't mean nothing happened... He did thank Tax for helping him out. He's not the devil others make him out to me. He just needs more EQ to deal with people. It's pretty easy to see he has issues talking to people and reading into meanings of faces and words. And it's pretty easy to guess what condition he may well have (and it's not even a rare condition for goodness sake!)... Does that makes him worse than you or me? As for acceptance of mlxxx comments, who said they were accepted. I have in this thread for what it is worth criticised his approach too. I stand corrected then ... I am a human being, and it's hard to keep track when posts are coming in a furry (esp when I have connection problems at home). But as mlxxx has said myrantz, if tone deaf people can pick the difference on Mario's system why is it inconceivable that there maybe an issue with his system? Not saying there is just playing devils advocate Good question... Some day I hope you and I can make the trip... It's not inconceivable, but I much prefer to answer that question while I enjoy listening to music.... The last time I was there (when I collected something) his system seems to have lost a bit of the usual magic. Not sure what was happening there but I hope that isn't permanent. It is bad because all the trained acoustic engineers designing such equipment have been brain washed to forget everything they know and build kit for the tone deaf plebs like you and me It's not that they forget everything they know. They are actually building things according to what they know, and that's why it sucked... j/k... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDL Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 Don't worry I'm as disillusioned as you are these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myrantz Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 (edited) Can you do a favour and not do this? It gets hard to quote. I'm slack I had Paul Spencer come over and 16 measurements all over the room ,it confirmed what I could hear . What was of interest I could place the speakers in a couple different position in the room and have virtually the same out come . Now they can be in a more WAF position and I can play with the xovers points to suit the required EQ and acoustic treatment . Looking at room measurements can also help you with the type of speaker topology to use . Take a small room with close boundry's a Unity/Synergy type speaker could work better in a small room . You can do 16, you can do 32, you can even do to infinity..... Doesn't change a thing... The way our brains function is it process the information you get from the left ear, and the right ear (and many other cues), do a lot of calculations and tells you what you're thinking. Imagine looking at the distant object with both your eyes, then repeat with just the left eye, and then repeat with just the right eye.. Do you notice any difference? With both eyes you get an extra information - depth, and you have a wider field of view. Similar things are working with audio here, only way more complicated. And now not only do we have to deal with pressure waves, we have to deal with extra information (variables that gives the brain false positives - placebos). Now for measurements to work in audio, you need to do something similar. Long story short you are not trying to just measure the physical sound waves (that is kintergaten audio!). You are trying to capture the pressure waves from the "left" ear and the "right" ear. Add in all the variables and then run a model to simulate that interactions as if it's happening inside the brain. You may well need to run the model many times with different sets of parameters to come up with a final analysis. This is the idea I have repeated countless times.. But it's not an idea audiophiles can or will accept. The commercial hifi model of numbers, pretty diagrams and simplistic modelling is a lot easy for them to understand. BTW, I'm adding you to my list.. I don't think your system will disappoint Edited December 20, 2012 by myrantz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myrantz Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 Don't worry I'm as disillusioned as you are these days. Well I'm certainly not helping... I am part of the problem... Not sure what my options are really 1/ Gang up with MLXXX to continue the divide, 2/ Gang up with Mario to bridge it. 3/ Get banned.... 4/ Keep quiet I chose option 3.. (3 and 4 are really related)... At the rate accounts are being suspended, deleted or banned, eventually I'd make the honour list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
56oval Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 Can you do a favour and not do this? It gets hard to quote. You can do 16, you can do 32, you can even do to infinity..... Doesn't change a thing... The way our brains function is it process the information you get from the left ear, and the right ear (and many other cues), do a lot of calculations and tells you what you're thinking. Imagine looking at the distant object with both your eyes, then repeat with just the left eye, and then repeat with just the right eye.. Do you notice any difference? With both eyes you get an extra information - depth, and you have a wider field of view. Similar things are working with audio here, only way more complicated. And now not only do we have to deal with pressure waves, we have to deal with extra information (variables that gives the brain false positives - placebos). Now for measurements to work in audio, you need to do something similar. Long story short you are not trying to just measure the physical sound waves (that is kintergaten audio!). You are trying to capture the pressure waves from the "left" ear and the "right" ear. Add in all the variables and then run a model to simulate that interactions as if it's happening inside the brain. You may well need to run the model many times with different sets of parameters to come up with a final analysis. This is the idea I have repeated countless times.. But it's not an idea audiophiles can or will accept. The commercial hifi model of numbers, pretty diagrams and simplistic modelling is a lot easy for them to understand. BTW, I'm adding you to my list.. I don't think your system will disappoint Answer me this, is there a system that you have heard where there has been no measurements or math used and only the ear used . Back latter Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gone_bush Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 Anything not built out of blu tac elastic bands some super glue and some scrap metal from army surplus. It is bad because all the trained acoustic engineers designing such equipment have been brain washed to forget everything they know and build kit for the tone deaf plebs like you and me So, because (1) my system is "commercial hifi"; (2) I've not had any "training"; and 3) I use the standard power cords I'm neither qualified nor permitted to like, and even be happy with, my system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myrantz Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 Answer me this, is there a system that you have heard where there has been no measurements or math used and only the ear used . No. (Arrrgh, just me or I am sensing a bit of quid pro quo movie moment here?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajm1503559545 Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 Yes I've done training in hifi audio set-ups. But I didn't bring up the idea that training was essential, Mario did. All I asked was what he (and you) considered to be the proper level of training etc etc etc. simple questions you fudged your way around. At some point you're going to have to stop taking tangents and creating strawman arguements when you don know an answer and someone points out the flaws in your logic. The divide is between what you believe and what you can show to be true. You're a decent guy treb but trying to make sense of stuff that's mostly just nonsense has you spinning in circles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Once was an audiophile Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 How do you know I haven't? You are making some huge assumptions and have no basis for some of your statements I don't really know that you haven't, i just answered your question from an earlier post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Once was an audiophile Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 Yes I've done training in hifi audio set-ups. But I didn't bring up the idea that training was essential, Mario did. All I asked was what he (and you) considered to be the proper level of training etc etc etc. simple questions you fudged your way around. At some point you're going to have to stop taking tangents and creating strawman arguements when you don know an answer and someone points out the flaws in your logic. The divide is between what you believe and what you can show to be true. You're a decent guy treb but trying to make sense of stuff that's mostly just nonsense has you spinning in circles. To begin with if you cant hear a difference between amplifiers,dacs,cd players etc your lucky and very gifted no training required Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Once was an audiophile Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 It's got nothing to do with "comfort zone" - it just a waste of time. The upcoming test of Mario's system will solve nothing in this debate. That is not to say that it will not show a difference. It's just that "some folks" (eg you) hold such entrenched views and have little will to admit that they may, just may, be mistaken. And to save you the effort of trawling through my historical posts: I am a cable sceptic, which is not to say that do not believe that cables can make a difference. Test? just some measurements being done for this product http://www.eti-research.com.au/index.php/component/content/article/13-news/120-the-new-eti-amg-topper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
56oval Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 (edited) What type of measurements are going to be done,frequency differences or the opposing cabinet motion http://www.eti-resea...-eti-amg-topper Cheers Edited December 20, 2012 by 56oval Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gone_bush Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 From TFA While the current Topper works on fractal technology, the new ETI – AMG Topper different. By sitting a smaller weight on a compliant mounting, carefully tuned to a specific resonant frequency, it is able to actively oppose cabinet motion and thus vastly increase the stability of the speaker cabinet or speaker/stand assembly. Q1: What is "fractal technology"? Q2: "tuned to a specific resonant frequency": resonant with what? Q3: If it is to "activitely oppose cabinet motion" then it must be tuned to the resonant frequency of the cabinet on which it is sitting. As every structure, speaker cabinet or not, has it's own unique resonant frequency, then this device's "tuned resonant frequency" would need to be adjusted for each and every cabinet. How will this tuning be performed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Once was an audiophile Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 From TFA Q1: What is "fractal technology"? Q2: "tuned to a specific resonant frequency": resonant with what? Q3: If it is to "activitely oppose cabinet motion" then it must be tuned to the resonant frequency of the cabinet on which it is sitting. As every structure, speaker cabinet or not, has it's own unique resonant frequency, then this device's "tuned resonant frequency" would need to be adjusted for each and every cabinet. How will this tuning be performed? Q1,Q2 and Q3 i don't know but they work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajm1503559545 Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 To begin with if you cant hear a difference between amplifiers,dacs,cd players etc your lucky and very gifted no training required Just be clear an say you don't really know rather than half legible sarcasm? Out of curiosity, what is the "etc" you mentioned? Cable cookers? Cable lifters? Isolation pads? Green texta? Uni-directional cables? How deep does it go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Once was an audiophile Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 Just be clear an say you don't really know rather than half legible sarcasm? Out of curiosity, what is the "etc" you mentioned? Cable cookers? Cable lifters? Isolation pads? Green texta? Uni-directional cables? How deep does it go? Isolation is good for cd players the rest i don't use Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
56oval Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 Thinking about if you read ETI's speal about the toppers you need to use something like a accelerometer for measurements . Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myrantz Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 Yes I've done training in hifi audio set-ups. But I didn't bring up the idea that training was essential, Mario did. All I asked was what he (and you) considered to be the proper level of training etc etc etc. simple questions you fudged your way around. At some point you're going to have to stop taking tangents and creating strawman arguements when you don know an answer and someone points out the flaws in your logic. The divide is between what you believe and what you can show to be true. You're a decent guy treb but trying to make sense of stuff that's mostly just nonsense has you spinning in circles. Training of the ears - knowing what to listen for.. Not really hifi training setup... No offence but IMO traditional hifi training is more applicable to commercial hifi than what Mario is/was talking about. There are some concepts which is pretty rigid and set in everybody's mindset and that is rather hard to break. e.g. training may well be one of them. To begin with if you cant hear a difference between amplifiers,dacs,cd players etc your lucky and very gifted no training required Not really correct.. I'm willing to bet almost everybody under the right conditions can hear a difference between item A and item B.. The trick is to know which difference is the better version, and also how to make adjustments to highlight that difference.. Like myself who is still knee deep in commercial hifi, what you are doing is actually not easy for us at all... For us, we're still grappling with the issue of "which comes first, chicken or egg", whereas it's very straightforward for you. Thinking about if you read ETI's speal about the toppers you need to use something like a accelerometer for measurements . That's what he said ... Hopefully Jones has one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
56oval Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 That's what he said ... Hopefully Jones has one... On Lenco Heaven theres a thread how to build one . CHeers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajm1503559545 Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 With respect treb, that's another non-answer, based on a vague term you recently made up and haven't been able to define. Just be honest and say you're not sure what Mario means by training because he's not sure either. And also be honest and admit you're not really sure what "traditional hi-fi training" actually involves either. We all like faffing about with our hobbies and generally having a good time with it and there's no argument that we learn things along the way. But that's not training is it? (Unless you want to re-define that word as well! ) If you want to bridge the divide then being honest about what you don't know would be a good step. Also, avoiding giving advice based on ideas you're not well informed on would help. And I suppose avoiding making up terms that you then build arguments around would be a huge help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myrantz Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 (edited) On Lenco Heaven theres a thread how to build one . Or you can use a WiiMotion Plus and a laptop with BT connectivity... Getting access (even to more sensitive ones) and getting the roll,pitch,yaw values isn't difficult... Getting those things to mean something is a different matter.. Anyway, anything you like Mario to do this weekend? Anything you're curious about? With respect treb, that's another non-answer, based on a vague term you recently made up and haven't been able to define. Just be honest and say you're not sure what Mario means by training because he's not sure either. And also be honest and admit you're not really sure what "traditional hi-fi training" actually involves either. We all like faffing about with our hobbies and generally having a good time with it and there's no argument that we learn things along the way. But that's not training is it? (Unless you want to re-define that word as well! ) If you want to bridge the divide then being honest about what you don't know would be a good step. Also, avoiding giving advice based on ideas you're not well informed on would help. And I suppose avoiding making up terms that you then build arguments around would be a huge help. Wow... Check my track record, was I ever dishonest about anything? When I was wrong or made a mistake, did I ever hide from it? You can character assassinate all you want, knowing what to listen for is the answer (read Mario's comments that I quoted, the one about piano, guitar and strings).. PS: Did ajm actually answered my question? I need to read back and see if he did or not... Edit: This is the question: "Argue, debate, to what end? Are you, or are you not going to at least try and visit one of these systems?". Don't think it's answered? Edited December 21, 2012 by myrantz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajm1503559545 Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 No treb, I don't think I'll check these systems any time soon but then you've not done anything to explain why it's relevant. Do you think I've never spent time with a quality transparent system? You'd have to be assuming I've never been exposed to a quality system which is totally untrue. I've been around this for a while - there's no great magic in any of these that are suddenly going to make me "trained" or give me the same kinds of golden ears Mario claims to have. You claim you want to bridge the divide but all you're doing is putting up barriers. First it was the better system which no one can define. Then it was training which no on can define (or show that they've completed!) and now the bar has been set at having been and visited a few specific systems belonging to people I don't know and most of which are located interstate! Please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myrantz Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 No treb, I don't think I'll check these systems any time soon but then you've not done anything to explain why it's relevant. And you do realise because you're not going to check these systems the problem is actually yours and not me or Marios? Look what Mario is going to do this Sunday - measurements... Now look at yourself. You're just arguing without any interest in changing your position whatsoever. Exactly the way MLXXX is doing, argue for proof and have absolutely no interest in anything else but argue for proof. Do you think I've never spent time with a quality transparent system? I've listened to systems in HK, Singapore, Japan and Malaysia. Granted the only systems I've heard in Australia is Perth.. But no offense intended it's a fair bet you have no idea what a quality transparent system really means. You sold your revealing 2 channel channel to go multi-channel. I don't know who would make the compromise other than for WAF. Bear in mind I have already said Mario's system isn't perfect. But the thing that he wants and focuses on (midrange), that part is very sweet indeed. So far, no system I've heard can do live music the way Mario system's can. There is definitely something better out there. But you're losing focus on the argument because you're drifting in one-up ship on equipment when your argument on Mario's method failed to stick. You'd have to be assuming I've never been exposed to a quality system which is totally untrue. I've been around this for a while - there's no great magic in any of these that are suddenly going to make me "trained" or give me the same kinds of golden ears Mario claims to have. You claim you want to bridge the divide but all you're doing is putting up barriers. First it was the better system which no one can define. Then it was training which no on can define (or show that they've completed!) and now the bar has been set at having been and visited a few specific systems belonging to people I don't know and most of which are located interstate! Please! Clearly you are outraged about poor definitions, and yet you havn't define what quality means in your context too.. Pot kettle black? You just need one person in your state.. I'm thinking you're in Melbourne? LPG is in Melbourne? What about spearmint? He did do the test with bbar and SDL. Did you actually bother to attend, or even ask for a repeat session? It really doesn't matter what the results is, or what method you use for your test... What are you afraid of? Too busy? That clearly can't be true coz you're here posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
56oval Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 Or you can use a WiiMotion Plus and a laptop with BT connectivity... Getting access (even to more sensitive ones) and getting the roll,pitch,yaw values isn't difficult... Getting those things to mean something is a different matter.. Anyway, anything you like Mario to do this weekend? Anything you're curious about? Test the Toppers with an accelerometer .Looks like your able to set it up for him. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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