Once was an audiophile Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 HA has a large database of threads on diverse topics, and a large membership. Here is a copy of board statistics from earlier this evening: Our members have made a total of 810638 posts We have 90563 registered members The newest member is vexa Most users ever online was 2491 on Jul 29 2007, 17:16 From: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/ High end audio from what a pc blind leading the blind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajm1503559545 Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Mr ajm you will be shocked how many people don't hear sibilance,digital edge a mechanical sound of digital play back why? THEY ARE USED TO IT IT TAKES TIME TO TRAIN EARS AND MOST OF ALL EXPOSURE TO GREAT SSYSTEMS IN ORDER TO PICK THE FAULTS UP (NO MEASUREMENTS WILL DO THIS) You're suggesting I need to train my ears and (most of all) buy a good enough system to make the music sound bad enough for upgraded cables to have an effect? Yes, I am shocked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Once was an audiophile Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 MLXXX is never going to get anything meanigful out of Mario. Oh you mean recordings NO WASTE OF TIME i left kindergarten audio long time ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Once was an audiophile Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 You're suggesting I need to train my ears and (most of all) buy a good enough system to make the music sound bad enough for upgraded cables to have an effect? Yes, I am shocked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLXXX Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 (edited) I heard my 'first' quality power cord more than 20 years ago. One of my former clients, Ed, the owner of Crystal Clear Records, (a direct disc firm), demoed one at a CES. We were all surprised, yet we could not see WHY anybody in their right mind would pay $500 for one. From Ed's point of view, it gave $500 in audio quality improvement, so it was worth it. I think that Ed was a little ahead of his time. http://www.diyaudio....rt-ii-3058.html There is no shortage of claims from people that they believe power cords make an audible difference. And no shortage of technical explanations why such differences would be surprising. What are thin on the ground are: 1. Double blind tests that prove that a difference is audible to human subjects under controlled conditions for a particular audiophile device. And the next logical step: 2. Diagnosis of what prevented the audiophile device from working the same with its original power cord. There is no progress achieved in simply citing beliefs, kajak. You might as well cite the opinion of Roman Catholics, or of different schools of Hindu philosophy, concerning their respective spiritual beliefs. Edited December 10, 2012 by MLXXX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mello yello Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 (edited) there are eight million stories in the Naked City... and we will be right back after the break... Edited December 10, 2012 by mello yello Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajm1503559545 Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Mario, whaddya know - a video showing blind testing being used to demonstrate critical listening. So we have the means, it's just the will that is missing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Mario, whaddya know - a video showing blind testing being used to demonstrate critical listening. So we have the means, it's just the will that is missing. And hey it's for speakers too ! Guess what oh no not necessary for evaluating speakers we were told ! Point missed ajm is its something needing training. But yeah not something those over on the divide will ever accept ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajm1503559545 Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 (edited) [quote name=' timestamp='1355181516' post='1851874] And hey it's for speakers too ! Guess what oh no not necessary for evaluating speakers we were told ! Point missed ajm is its something needing training. But yeah not something those over on the divide will ever accept ! Oh no Al don't tell me you're going to sip the Kool-Aid too?! It can't be impossible to do (unscientific) ABX comparisons and a critical part of "training" a person to hear problems. That's just adding another contradiction to this mix. And a lack of training can't also be used as a catch-all reason for not hearing differences due to cable changes. edit - quick straw poll - how many here have been formally "trained" to critically listen? How many have had these abilities tested through a similar ABX test used in the video? Mario? If this kind of 'training' can be used for speakers it can be used for any other part of the audio chain. The means exist but not the courage to use it. And I don't recall anyone saying this wasn't necessary for speakers. I can make up any claim I like and not be believed. That's not a divide, that's not something everyone else needs to make a concession to. Bullshit is bullshit. There really is no middle ground. Edited December 10, 2012 by ajm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 What claim ? they're actually doing it and for good reason. I explained how in my own work industry I had to undergo quite a bit if training to not only train but calibrate my senses. It's absolutely essential if want meaningful results from abx dbt involving senses. But yeah can understand those on the divide not accepting. And yeah also accept while those on the divide will preach all about evaluating equipment blind they will hardly if ever do that themselves and just buy stuff either based on just subjective evaluation or simply just blind based on gut feel user or press reviews etc. not that have a problem with that. Just see the contradiction time and time again. And yet will then see the very same throw rocks at those either inbetween or other side of the divide. Same sh!t different day what's new. All been said before all waste of time ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajm1503559545 Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 You're right, not every claim is challenged, thankfully or we'd never get out of these holes. And yes, that is probably a contradiction itself. My personal beef is with the idea that when people aren't finding the changes other claim to, the response is invariably that the equipment and/or the hearing is inferior. There is another option, one that these people are unwilling to consider, let alone explore. How about there is no real, actual difference? Or it is so small as to be imperceptible? How about we see if that's the case? How about we see if these golden ears are actually as good the owners seem to think? What's the harm in seeing if the least reliable part of the chain is behaving as expected and the variances are at the human level? Some people don't seem to accept that they're fallible - like all human beings are. There's your divide right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDL Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 I would guess the various capabilities due to age, damage, defects, of human ears would have more to do with what we hear than any training to hear. I think in a quiet room with a source of music we can all listen to the same thing and can mostly all listen critically. Our ears are the limitation and the training I would guess they would receive, and was also mentioned in the clip, was being able to describe what it was they heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puss in Books Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 Mario, whaddya know - a video showing blind testing being used to demonstrate critical listening. So we have the means, it's just the will that is missing. I was determined not to contribute to this thread, but I have to say that video gave me a good laugh. Not only did it show their reliance on blind testing to evaluate speakers, but a few words from Floyd Toole - someone who would be probably more atuned to MLXXX's world of measurement rather than Kajak's world of feelings!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Once was an audiophile Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 Mario, whaddya know - a video showing blind testing being used to demonstrate critical listening. So we have the means, it's just the will that is missing. I thought you might like that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Once was an audiophile Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 I was determined not to contribute to this thread, but I have to say that video gave me a good laugh. Not only did it show their reliance on blind testing to evaluate speakers, but a few words from Floyd Toole - someone who would be probably more atuned to MLXXX's world of measurement rather than Kajak's world of feelings!! kajaks world of listening that is why we have ears :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Once was an audiophile Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 How about we see if these golden ears are actually as good the owners seem to think? Your more then welcome to test my ears ajm anytime in perth bring it on at the same time i will test yours with changing amps from my personal tube amp to a avr......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLXXX Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 (edited) [quote name=' timestamp='1355183775' post='1851887] And yeah also accept while those on the divide will preach all about evaluating equipment blind they will hardly if ever do that themselves and just buy stuff either based on just subjective evaluation or simply just blind based on gut feel user or press reviews etc. not that have a problem with that. Just see the contradiction time and time again. And yet will then see the very same throw rocks at those either inbetween or other side of the divide. Same sh!t different day what's new. All been said before all waste of time ! ' ', the process of selecting new speakers often would be a combination of preliminary research of considering the reports of measured output in laboratory testing and other information in detailed reviews, followed by personal listening in a showroom to systems that were on one's short list (and any others the dealer had available for the buyer to audition). Apparent value (performance vs cost), and one's budget would also be considered in the purchase decision. It would be recommended to take along one's own CD of familiar, revealing, music. It is true that ideally in terms of subjective blind ranking one would not ask the dealer the cost of the speaker systems beforehand but merely have him/her demonstrate them. (This would avoid the risk of expectation bias that the more expensive the system, the better the sound.) However, the blind testing being discussed in this thread relates primarily to potentially extremely subtle variations in sound (a change in an interconnect), not the gross difference of different loudspeaker systems. I suggest that the more subtle the difference, the greater the risk that what one hears is influenced by imagination. You may recall my recounting a story that in a pseudo blind test where I used identical files of a test tone, as the A and B samples, I was able to will myself to hear one tone as higher in pitch than the other, even though I knew, objectively, the files being played were the same. Such is the power of suggestion. I could also will myself to hear the pitch differential the other way. I found it remarkable that my conscious brain could be party to such a self-induced "mind trick". If there had been a marked actual pitch difference of say a semi-tone, I would not have been able to will away that reality. It was when there was no clear difference that I was able to trick myself into perceiving a pitch difference, by an act of will. I was determined not to contribute to this thread, but I have to say that video gave me a good laugh. Not only did it show their reliance on blind testing to evaluate speakers, but a few words from Floyd Toole - someone who would be probably more atuned to MLXXX's world of measurement rather than Kajak's world of feelings!! Yes I smiled at the irony of that video link kajak supplied: http://www.youtube.c...?v=A9lroIP3BKo] The technology described half way into the YouTube video (from around the 2 minute mark) of automatically moving each loudspeaker system under evaluation to the same position (behind a curtain) is an advanced form of auditioning (and blind testing) of speakers not available in your average showroom. Has anyone encountered this type of set-up in Australia, or overseas? Edited December 11, 2012 by MLXXX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbar Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 (edited) Been away for a while, have we resolved anything? Is there consensus that cables do make a difference? Sorry, slow day... Edited December 11, 2012 by bbar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajm1503559545 Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 Not exactly Although there does seem to have been a dramatic shift in acceptance of ABX testing as a valid testing methodology for audio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbar Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Not exactly Although there does seem to have been a dramatic shift in acceptance of ABX testing as a valid testing methodology for audio. Not sure anyone here saying it isn't; just that they can't be bothered as they see no reason why they need to prove it to anyone other than themselves though it can be of benefit to even prove it to ones self! I have mixed feelings on ABX testing. I agree 100% with it , if used properly, I am just not convinced it can be used properly in all types of testing. Basically, the more subtle the difference and the longer between sampling, the greater the probability of the tester being in error and I believe the differences would be subtle. Expressed another way it would not be like testing to see if colour is same and one is red and the other blue. Can cabling make a difference, I will go out on a limb here and say YES, both for power and audio. Remember I said can and did not define the audio, the environment it is in; nor did I specify the cabling. So, bad cabling with wrong electrical characteristics will have a different sonic signature to one that fully meets the electrical characteristics for optimum transmission of the audio and will be heard depending on the system used to produce it. Power cabling is a tricky one as have a hard time believing it but I passed a blind test so it is true in at least one situation. Also had Spearmint and SDL over to listen and both heard a difference with the power cable. SDL, says yes I heard it; but I shouldn't have. which is a bit like me. At the end of the day, spent $125 for 2 shielded power leads and decided too much trouble to worry about whether I was lucky in blind test and the 3 of us just fed each other when we detected a difference. Also, no guarantee our heads were in same position for each test, so that could be reason also. Basically, cheaper and easier to change lead than going on a Holy Quest to find the ultimate truth. I will say that I had first got a $400 power cable from a HIFI shop and could not hear a difference. Then got a cable from another DTV member and could detect a subtle difference; but not consistently. Hey, the change could also be that there was noise leakage from standard power cable to the audio cables in behind rack which was reduced with the after-market power lead as the shield was grounded to earth at the wall socket end. I have same view as Petertherock re Audio cables ( speaker and interconnect) . Don't need crazy expensive ones, just ones that provide the characteristics best suited for the purpose. I could spend years trying all cables and the like; but instead but cables at a reasonable price that have the characteristics needed. Anyway, still believe the divide as Al and I are implying which is there are those that try and say yes or no on their equipment and are happy with the results and those that want proof that what the individual is experiencing is 100% accurate scientifically. In other words, one sharing ones perceptions is met with ' I don't want to hear your perceptions. Prove it too me' . The thread then deteriorates between the two camps who basically throw stones art each other. As in ' Oh yeah, well try it yourself and if you can't hear it then your ears or equipment is not good enough', and the other side just says ' oh yeah, then maybe your equipment is broken or not up to scratch as that is the only logical explanation; or can't accept your findings unless it is an ABX test and if u try one and it is not perfect, and only I get to decide that, then I won't accept anyway'. Problem is Logic may give you what you need but only Magic can give u what u want..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajm1503559545 Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 bbar, like everything in life there is no black/white right/wrong 1/0 answer - just a mess of greys. I can only speak for myself obviously and my personal beef is with people who frame their opinions as truths - unequivocal, irrebuttable. We can all see faffing about and tinkering for what it is, trying to make it seem studied and scientific just makes it look absurd and haphazzard. Most people I know are far more moderate, just as yourself and Al for example. Opinions are expressed as opinions and you guys are far more deliberate with your views - and conscious of the limitations that all opinions have. Enough sermonising from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myrantz Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 [quote name=' timestamp='1355183775' post='1851887] All been said before all waste of time ! Wouldn't say that is true TBH.. Very slowly people are changing, one at a time... People in general is resistant to change (my company lost 70+ years of experience during a recent relocation).. Admittedly folks are not changing at the pace I would like, but since people are changing, it's not a complete waste of time.. I can only speak for myself obviously and my personal beef is with people who frame their opinions as truths - unequivocal, irrebuttable. So your issue is simply that you can't stand people being right? j/k :D Don't care what you do from here, but IMO instead of arguing your head off, why not prove to Mario you're right? e.g. like me come up with a computer transport (or any streaming solution) that at least do not suck? That's what I'm doing atm and I'm still a far way off ... All theory points to streaming as a holy grail.. Isn't it time to put that into practice? After all, how hard is it to beat a 20 year old CD player with wires flying everywhere ? Which reminds me... Now that another computer geek has moved near me I should touch base with him and share notes... I'm not having much success with mine, but I think his has a lot more promise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbar Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 bbar, like everything in life there is no black/white right/wrong 1/0 answer - just a mess of greys. I can only speak for myself obviously and my personal beef is with people who frame their opinions as truths - unequivocal, irrebuttable. We can all see faffing about and tinkering for what it is, trying to make it seem studied and scientific just makes it look absurd and haphazzard. Most people I know are far more moderate, just as yourself and Al for example. Opinions are expressed as opinions and you guys are far more deliberate with your views - and conscious of the limitations that all opinions have. Enough sermonising from me. Fully agree. Expressing opinions as scientific documented proof also gets up my nose, as I am sure you have seen me respond in other threads.... There is no real value in threads like this as they are a bit like political views. One has the extremes on both sides who are entrenched and the middle which most want to convert to their camp. It is a never-ending story. There are just too many variables to make a formal statement. Hey, on a specific set of equipment it may be possible to detect subtle changes in sonic signature with specific cables. That does not mean it is true for all cables on all equipment. Conversely it may not be possible to detect sonic differences on most equipment with most of the different cabling brands. That does not mean there cannot be one scenario where it does. So, basically arguing the abstract is fruitless and if one really cares then one can go to to the persons equipment where they can reproduce the difference and listen for themselves and draw their own conclusions. They can even record for future playback should they desire. Not doing so just means it is not that important to them, which is fine but why continue to argue? unless one has paid the for the 5 pound argument and wants their moneys worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myrantz Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Never said never bbar.. Folks are actually going down Mario's place to measure some thing called a Topper .... For all I know Mario will be a measuring convert soon ... Maybe the arguments will stop then :D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbar Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Never said never bbar.. Folks are actually going down Mario's place to measure some thing called a Topper .... For all I know Mario will be a measuring convert soon ... Maybe the arguments will stop then :D. Ok, but somehow can't see it; but I have been surprised before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts