Shady Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 Gday all, Hopefully this is the right area to post this but I'm trying to educate myself on all this Hz and interlace and progressive stuff. I see references to 50Hz 1080i but not 50Hz 1080p ( dont know if I got that right but you get the idea) Can anyone point towards a 'idiots guide to' thread or web site so I can wrap my head around it all. I'm wanting info in reference to HTPC/Pioneer507xda/DVD players sort of stuff. Cheers
pgdownload Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 Might be something about it here: http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=51269&hl= Regards Peter Gillespie
madmax Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 As a brief guide: Hz is the screen refresh rate. It is unrelated to the resolution such as 1080i or 1080p. Aussie tv is 50Hz, American tv is 60Hz. Movies are shot at 24 frames per second (24Hz). When movies were transferred to DVD, they were converted to 50Hz for region 4 (Aus) and to 60Hz for region 1 (USA). Neither is perfect, because conversion to 50Hz means that the movie runs 4% too fast, and conversion to 60Hz caused judder during camera pans. The new HD-DVD and BluRay formats are transferred to their discs in their original 24 frames per second, and leave it up to the players and screens to decide what to do with it. So with the right player and screen, you can watch movies in their original 'untainted' form. Now (I think) all the current HD-DVD & BluRay players are capable of outputting 24 fps, so all you need is a screen which can display it at 24fps (i.e. 24Hz) or 48Hz (double each frame) or 72Hz (triple each frame). Unfortunately not many tvs have this ability, although the Pio507 is one that does (it's in a menu somewhere). I would expect most future models will have this feature, but you need to check. And don't get confused by a tv that will "accept" a 24Hz signal - that's not enough, it needs to be able to display at 24Hz (or 48Hz, 72Hz or any other multiple of 24). Those that only "accept" 24Hz are converting it to 50Hz or 60Hz for display, so you end up with the same problems that plagued DVDs. None of this is important until you buy a HD-DVD or BluRay player (or PlayStation 3), only then it becomes an issue. Hope this helps - I tried to keep it simple. [edit] Oh yeah, and about the HTPC thing - I believe it is possible to get 50Hz from an HTPC, but it's not easy, and you require Windows hacks and certain graphics cards. I'm going to attempt it in a few months from now.....but otherwise HTPCs run at 60Hz, which of course is not ideal for our tv.
illusions Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 Hi Max where would I find out if a tv I am thinking of purchasing displays 24fps as you suggested... I am looking at the SONY BRAVIA 46V Series KDL 46V2000 or the Phillips plasmas 42PF9631D or 50PF9631D thanks As a brief guide:Hz is the screen refresh rate. It is unrelated to the resolution such as 1080i or 1080p. Aussie tv is 50Hz, American tv is 60Hz. Movies are shot at 24 frames per second (24Hz). When movies were transferred to DVD, they were converted to 50Hz for region 4 (Aus) and to 60Hz for region 1 (USA). Neither is perfect, because conversion to 50Hz means that the movie runs 4% too fast, and conversion to 60Hz caused judder during camera pans. The new HD-DVD and BluRay formats are transferred to their discs in their original 24 frames per second, and leave it up to the players and screens to decide what to do with it. So with the right player and screen, you can watch movies in their original 'untainted' form. Now (I think) all the current HD-DVD & BluRay players are capable of outputting 24 fps, so all you need is a screen which can display it at 24fps (i.e. 24Hz) or 48Hz (double each frame) or 72Hz (triple each frame). Unfortunately not many tvs have this ability, although the Pio507 is one that does (it's in a menu somewhere). I would expect most future models will have this feature, but you need to check. And don't get confused by a tv that will "accept" a 24Hz signal - that's not enough, it needs to be able to display at 24Hz. Those that only "accept" 24Hz are converting it to 50Hz or 60Hz for display, so you end up with the same problems that plagued DVDs. None of this is important until you buy a HD-DVD or BluRay player (or PlayStation 3), only then it becomes an issue. Hope this helps - I tried to keep it simple. [edit] Oh yeah, and about the HTPC thing - I believe it is possible to get 50Hz from an HTPC, but it's not easy, and you require Windows hacks and certain graphics cards. I'm going to attempt it in a few months from now.....but otherwise HTPCs run at 60Hz, which of course is not ideal for our tv.
Shady Posted June 28, 2007 Author Posted June 28, 2007 Max, Thats exactly what I wanted to know. Simple and too the point. Thanks heaps for that quick tutorial mate. Looks like my new Pio507 doesnt display in 24Hz Input signal - HDMI digital & Component analogue 60Hz 720p/1080i/480p/480i 50Hz 720p/1080i/576p/576i 24Hz 1080p I take this to mean input not display as you suggested. I cant find anywhere on the specs where it refers to its display rate Cheers
madmax Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 Hi Maxwhere would I find out if a tv I am thinking of purchasing displays 24fps as you suggested... I am looking at the SONY BRAVIA 46V Series KDL 46V2000 or the Phillips plasmas 42PF9631D or 50PF9631D I'm sure the Bravias can't do it, don't know about the Philips, you need to look at the specs in the manual and read it VERY carefully if you care about this issue.
illusions Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 Hi Max the specs on the Phillips 50PF9631D (Supported Disply resolution) state: Computer formats: Resolution Refresh rate 640X480 60Hz 800X600 60Hz 1024X768 60Hz Video formats Resolution Refresh rate 640X480i 1Fh 640X480p 2Fh 720X576i 1Fh 720X576p 2Fh 1280X720p 3Fh 1920X1080i 2Fh how does this sound to you and what does Fh mean ? I dont know what Im looking for ! I'm sure the Bravias can't do it, don't know about the Philips, you need to look at the specs in the manual and read it VERY carefully if you care about this issue.
madmax Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 I cant find anywhere on the specs where it refers to its display rateCheers From p.31 of the manual: "PureCinema Automatically detects a film-based source (originally encoded at 24 frames/second), analyses it, then recreates each still film frame for high-definition picture quality. ADV Produces smooth and quality moving images (as shown on theatre screens) by converting to 72 Hz when displaying DVD images (e.g., movies) having 24 frames per second." Mind you I've never tried it (since I don't own one). I'd be interested to know if it works. But remember you won't be able to tell using normal DVDs since they are already 'tainted', you need HD-DVD or BluRay to test if there is a difference with this function turned ON or OFF.
madmax Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 how does this sound to you and what does Fh mean ? Sorry, no idea....maybe somebody else can help? Anyway I think you need to find something like what's in the Pio507 manual (see previous post).
petetherock Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 Hi I got a PS3 to feed a 1080p 24 fps signal to my 507 I posted pictures in the 507 price list thread Cheers From p.31 of the manual:"PureCinema Automatically detects a film-based source (originally encoded at 24 frames/second), analyses it, then recreates each still film frame for high-definition picture quality. ADV Produces smooth and quality moving images (as shown on theatre screens) by converting to 72 Hz when displaying DVD images (e.g., movies) having 24 frames per second." Mind you I've never tried it (since I don't own one). I'd be interested to know if it works. But remember you won't be able to tell using normal DVDs since they are already 'tainted', you need HD-DVD or BluRay to test if there is a difference with this function turned ON or OFF.
merovingian Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 [edit] Oh yeah, and about the HTPC thing - I believe it is possible to get 50Hz from an HTPC, but it's not easy, and you require Windows hacks and certain graphics cards. I'm going to attempt it in a few months from now.....but otherwise HTPCs run at 60Hz, which of course is not ideal for our tv. Not true about HTPC. PC monitors typically can't do 50Hz, but PCs can. No hacks or tricks, just set a refresh rate of 50Hz. It might not be true for all graphics cards and TVs, but you most likely won't have a problem.
alanh Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 MadMax, All DVDs including Standard Definition disks are recorded at either 24 or 25 frame/s. It is the player which determines the output frame rate. For an NTSC output the player plays one frame twice and the next frame 3 times, and outputs the result in interlaced sequence at 60 field/s. In Australia the disk is played 4 % faster. AlanH
Chairman7 Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 A growing range of Xbox360 games (Gears of War, Forza 2, Guitar Hero 2) require a TV that support 60 hz.
madmax Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 All DVDs including Standard Definition disks are recorded at either 24 or 25 frame/s. It is the player which determines the output frame rate. For an NTSC output the player plays one frame twice and the next frame 3 times, and outputs the result in interlaced sequence at 60 field/s. In Australia the disk is played 4 % faster. Are you suggesting that with a firmware upgrade it would be possible to output 24 fps from a standard def DVD player? Because I have never heard of it being done......and if it hasn't been done, I'm sure that means it can't be done, so the end result I guess is the same. [edit] Here's a question - what happens if you play an SD-DVD in an HD-DVD player set to 24fps? Does it work?
Thunderlips Posted June 30, 2007 Posted June 30, 2007 You can usually download manuals from the manufacturers website. I found this in the LG 47LB2DE manual, their latest model... http://members.optuszoo.com.au/~thunderlips1/lg.jpg It lists 24Hz at 1920x1080p.
alanh Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 madmax, The manufacturers have not done it because there is no standard for 24 frame/s analog systems in the world. In the digital world it is on the standards list so slowly the more expensive equipment is making it available. It would be worth a try in a HD DVD or Blue ray player which can do this for HD disks. AlanH
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