1080p tvs... coming soon ?

[Darklord]

I know your trying to bait me Darklord, but I’m not going bite.

Actually, believe it or not there was no intention to bait you there mate! But it seems you did bite all the same

Since we live in a PAL country, we have lived with the 4% speed up ever since we first got TV over 50 years ago. It’s not a problem for 99% of the population.

You’re absolutely right. 576i composite VHS on a 50hz 68cm CRT TV is also not a problem for most of the country The point being that the 4% speedup issue affects an extremely small percentage of people. However if you are an audio purist, it can stand out like a sore thumb once you hear the difference. Particularly for titles with a strong emphasis on music, or for films that you’re already familiar with the soundtracks of. I know it drives me crazy on my PAL version of 2001: a Space Odyssey for example as I’ve owned the soundtrack and an NTSC copy of the film for years.

Sure, It’s a small point for many people, but yet another great reason for 1080/24p. If we can avoid it, and get true running times and correct audio pitch, then why not?

You can always have the player output 30fps and let the display do 3:2 pull down as is done in the US. No 4% speed up then dude.

Then you have 3:2 judder! Which I find even more objectionable than 2:2 4% speedup! Even when properly de-interlaced, 60hz based 1080i must be presented in a 3:2 cadence (one frame presented 3 times, the next 2 times and so on) in order to convert 24fps to 60fps. The only way to avoid this is with an HTPC or top end scaler which converts it to 72hz (reverse 3:2 pull-down, then re-converted to 3:3) but then you need an HTPC solution which won’t be a suitable option for Blu-Ray at this stage (and I’m not interested in driving my Home Theatre with an HTPC for movie playback anyway) and you still need a display capable of syncing to 1080p @ 72hz! (very few do unless they feature 1080/24p input in which case you’d use that instead!)

Don’t get me wrong, 1080p 24 would be nice to have for BluRay film content, even if just for simplicity sake, however it should not be considered a deal breaker

No argument from there. Remember I was just correcting your statement that 1080/24p offered no advantage over 1080/50i or 108060i input which it clearly does (they are just admittedly top end niche advantages).

Anyway, 1080p support should be low on the list of priorities. How these new displays will handle 1080i is a FARE more important issue, since most HD will be in that form.

This is very true. Most feature terrible 1080i de-interlacing and scaling. The sooner we can get top end per pixel motion adaptive based 1080i de-interlacing and scaling technology like Silicon Optix’s awesome HQV into 1080p displays, the better off we’ll all be.

However keep in mind this is yet another argument for 1080/24p input. With this input there is no de-interlacing required of any kind! In other words perfect 1:1 mapped 1920x1080p material shown in it’s native progressive 1080p form at the perfect speed and frame rate. 1080/24p @ 72hz on a high quality 1080p display is without a doubt the videophile’s holy grail.

Poor performance with 1080i SHOULD be a deal breaker, and definitely will be for me.

I completely understand and agree. Particularly as whether a display has 1080/24p input or not, we still have 1080i broadcasts and other interlaced format de-interlacing/scaling to deal with, which will require good quality de-interlacing and scaling.

Almost all the first gen 1080p displays will not support 1080p input, so people who MUST have 1080p input will have VERY limited choice in displays until 2007.

You’d be very surprised. Many recently announced 1080p (and some 720p!) displays feature 1080/24p input. Sony’s new SXRD and LCD (HS60) projectors to name a couple. Sony’s new SXRD projector also features 1080/50p and 1080/60 input via HDMI! You can’t get much more future ready than that.

I am tossing up between a Sony 70” SXRD and a Pioneer 65” 1080p Plasma. I will take the one with the best picture, 1080p 24 support or not.

I agree that picture should obviously be the deciding factor. Considering 1080/24p input as a bonus if available is the best way of looking at it. It’s worth noting that going by Panasonic’s recent statements about future plasmas that their 65” will almost definitely feature 1080/24p input. Not sure about the 70” SXRD RPTV, but given the new SXRD and LCD projectors both feature 24p input, I would be very surprised if it didn’t. Both should be awesome displays regardless.

[Owen]

The Sony SXRD RPTV’s that are being released in the US this month do not support 1080p via HDMI according to Sony and all reports. Neither do any of the 1080p DLP RPTV’s released (Samsung ) or due for release in the US.

The LG 71” LCoS RPTV “may” support 1080p input, but who cares, it’s not top class anyway.

So fare only front projectors seem to be supporting 1080 24, and we are not talking about them here dude.

Since the SXRD displays that are coming here will go into production much later then the US models, and be different in design to support 50Hz, there is a good chance that 1080p 24 will be supported. Fingers crossed

Since 1080 24psf (Progressive Segmented Frame) is VERY close in spec to 1080i 50Hz, I am confident that it will work, even if not officially supported.

By the way Darklord, there is no reason to frame double or triple 24fps video on most digital displays, as they do not flicker like CRT’s or film.

Only the pixel’s that have changed between frames are updated, so repeating frames is usless.

[Darklord]

The Sony SXRD RPTV’s that are being released in the US this month do not support 1080p via HDMI according to Sony and all reports.

That's a shame, but no major issue, as you've pointed out that their 1080i de-interlacing is reportedly very good.

Neither do any of the 1080p DLP RPTV’s released (Samsung ) or due for release in the US.

I think you're right in regards to DLP. Probably has a lot to do with the fact that 1080p DLP is not technically true 1080p anyway due to "wobulation" technology (which like ALIS is a pseudo interlaced mode).

The LG 71” LCoS RPTV “may” support 1080p input, but who cares, it’s not top class anyway.

Wouldn’t surprise me as JVC’s new D-ILA 720p and 1080p models do support 1080p input, and should be very good based upon initial specs (they are about to go into mass production too). Like you I couldn’t given a toss about anything LG has to offer though

So fare only front projectors seem to be supporting 1080 24, and we are not talking about them here dude.

That's not entirely true. If you read up on a lot of the CEDIA reports surfacing, many upcoming plasmas (Panasonic and NEC to name two I jsut read about), LCDs and LCOS micro-displays will also support 1080p input. Interestingly enough, only SXRD/LCD and LCOS front projection models seem to be supporting 1080p input (no upcoming TI 1080p DLPs do from what I’ve gathered so far, which supports my theory about it not being possible with the fake 1080p wobulation technique of TI's 1080p chip).

Since the SXRD displays that are coming here will go into production much later then the US models, and be different in design to support 50Hz, there is a good chance that 1080p 24 will be supported. Fingers crossed

I'll be crossing my fingers for you dude. I'll be going for a front projector as my next display solution so I should be pretty right

Since 1080 24psf (Progressive Segmented Frame) is VERY close in spec to 1080i 50Hz, I am confident that it will work, even if not officially supported.

They are more or less the same thing, so I would agree. I do know that the new Sony HS60 supports both 108024psf and 108024p input so that would fit with your theory.

By the way Darklord, there is no reason to frame double or triple 24fps video on most digital displays, as they do not flicker like CRT’s or film.

Only the pixel’s that have changed between frames are updated, so repeating frames is usless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's not entirely true mate, and is a common misconception with digital displays. It depends entirely on the technology. Plasmas for instance refresh the screen phospors in a similar fashion to CRT, but rather the whole screen is refreshed at the same time (either 50 or 60 times a second) rather than line by line. Although flicker is nothing like that on a CRT, it is still noticeable, and there is a big difference between 50hz and 60hz flicker (I can easily see 50hz flicker on a plasma in my peripheral vision, but can’t see any with 60hz).

In any case 1080/24p is generally being designed to be displayed at 72hz, presumably because this is an easily achievable refresh/sync rate to be engineered and compatible across all display types.

[DavoNogo]

Regarding PAL speedup, for those that don't know what they're talking about:

PAL - http://members.iinet.net.au/~davonogo/PALmusic.mp3

NTSC - http://members.iinet.net.au/~davonogo/NTSCmusic.mp3

PAL - http://members.iinet.net.au/~davonogo/PAL.mp3

NTSC - http://members.iinet.net.au/~davonogoNTSC.mp3

How do you get back to the original using PAL? Simple, if you have Nero Burning ROM installed, chances are you'll have a program called Nero Wave Editor. Load up one of the PAL files into there, then click Tools -> Transpose. Now select -1 for Interval and +20 for Fine-tune and untick maintain original length. That will give you approximately the original NTSC sound. I wouldn't have a clue how to convert the video properly though.

[Darklord]

Thanks Davo. That's a very good example of what I was referring to.

As a summary:

With 50hz (PAL or 1080/50i) we have horrible 4% speedup which your audio examples illustrate perfectly (which of course also effects speed of movement onscreen, and alters running times of films form their original theatrical running time).

And for 60hz (NTSC or 1080/60i) even after proper 3:2 de-interlacing we have horrible 3:2 judder (one frame is repeated 3 frames, the next 2 times and so on) in order to convert 24 frames to 60 frames.

Both are equally as horrible in their own way.

1080/24p eliminates both, while also negating the need for any de-interlacing).

[John_Barber]

I agree that picture should obviously be the deciding factor. Considering 1080/24p input as a bonus if available is the best way of looking at it.

My understanding is that, as far as DTV is concerned, 1080/24p is the international production/interchange standard, which will still be transmitted as 3:2 pulldown in NTSC markets and 4% speedup in PAL markets.

That's not to suggest that a Display with a 24p input wouldn't be useful for viewing other sources from computers or future disk formats.

Cheers

JB

[Darklord]

My understanding is that, as far as DTV is concerned, 1080/24p is the international production/interchange standard, which will still be transmitted as 3:2 pulldown in NTSC markets and 4% speedup in PAL markets.

That's not to suggest that a Display with a 24p input wouldn't be useful for viewing other sources from computers or future disk formats.

Cheers

JB

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry John, I should have been more clear. DTV broadcasts are as you say based around 50hz or 60hz, and there are no signs of that changing. 1080/24p input is strictly only useful for next generation optical HD formats such as Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, which will have the option of outputting 1080/24p in it’s native form.

[Billy Two Hats]

You wonder why manufactures could not design digital displays to run at 72hz in the first place?

By the way if "The Sony SXRD RPTV’s that are being released in the US this month do not support 1080p via HDMI according to Sony and all reports" then what are they going to support it over? My point being the hdmi standard requires that whatever is supported over component must also be supported over hdmi. Surely they are not bringing out the sxrd without hdmi.

[Darklord]

You wonder why manufactures could not design digital displays to run at 72hz in the first place?

Up until recent new formats were announced that could actually take advantage of 24p at 3:3 presentation (i.e. Blu-Ray and HD-DVD) there was no real need for this capability (except for hardcore HTPC users who are an extremely small minority). The vast majority of HD is (and will remain to be) either 50hz or 60hz.

By the way if "The Sony SXRD RPTV’s that are being released in the US this month do not support 1080p via HDMI according to Sony and all reports" then what are they going to support it over?

They won’t support 1080p input at all. They will just take a 1080i signal and convert it to 1080p (de-interlace using a simple weave process for film content, and motion adaptive de-interlace for 1080i video).

My point being the hdmi standard requires that whatever is supported over component must also be supported over hdmi. Surely they are not bringing out the sxrd without hdmi.

Component doesn’t even support 1080p AFAIK (not enough bandwidth and not to mention no 1080p capable sources will deliver this resolution over component anyway) so there’s no chance of that. It’s either 1080/24p over HDMI or 720p/1080i over HDMI (and component for broadcast HD).

It's also worth noting that both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD will only output HD (720p, 1080i or 1080p) over HDMI with HDCP. Component or RGBHV output will be limited to 480p and 576p only (for copy protection reasons).

[xtractdigit]

Just for a bit of info I run 1080p @ 29.3 fps using HDMI to sharp 45" lcd. Latest movies look great.Not many available yet.

[Darklord]

Just for a bit of info I run 1080p @ 29.3 fps using HDMI to sharp 45" lcd. Latest movies look great.Not many available yet.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Awesome. Good to hear Sharp supporting 1080/24p input so soon. I take it you are talking about WMVHD movies? As they are the only HD 1080p souuces I know of currently encoded at 108024p.

[kaanage]

1080i 50 fields per second is essentially identical to 1080p 25 frames per second as long as the original source is progressive.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So is 1080i not vertically filtered to reduce moire the way that 576i is?

[xtractdigit]

Awesome. Good to hear Sharp supporting 1080/24p input so soon. I take it you are talking about WMVHD movies? As they are the only HD 1080p souuces I know of currently encoded at 108024p.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yeah the wmvhd are the only ones around but there are more about than they let on .I'm not going to post on here were to get them though.

[Billy Two Hats]

Up until recent new formats were announced that could actually take advantage of 24p at 3:3 presentation (i.e. Blu-Ray and HD-DVD) there was no real need for this capability (except for hardcore HTPC users who are an extremely small minority). The vast majority of HD is (and will remain to be) either 50hz or 60hz.

~~

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well yes, but until then we have a 3:2 pulldown at 60hz giving motion judder and 2:2 pulldown at 50hz giving a 4% speed variation. Seems to me a display frequency of 72hz would have solved both problems.

Thanks for the other info.

[Darklord]

So is 1080i not vertically filtered to reduce moire the way that 576i is?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Broadcast 1080i often is (all video based native 1080/50i generally is to reduce interlaced artifacts) but presumably Blu-Ray/HD-DVD won't be for film sources. Otherwise the player would have to filter the 1080p video on the fly while converting to 1080i!

[Darklord]

Well yes, but until then we have a 3:2 pulldown at 60hz giving motion judder and 2:2 pulldown at 50hz giving a 4% speed variation. Seems to me a display frequency of 72hz would have solved both problems.

Thanks for the other info.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The problem with that is that in order to display 50hz or 60hz 1080i at 72hz you'd have to either:

a.) For 60hz 1080i films: Apply reverse 3:2 pull-down and convert the 1080/60i back to 24p, with a proper weave de-interlace, then apply 3:3 pull-down for presentation at 72hz. I’m not aware of any hardware that does this, and it would be very expensive to implement if there is.

b.) For 50hz 1080i films: Slow down 50hz 1080i content 4%, then weave de-interlace to 1080/24p, then apply 3:3 pull-down (while correcting the audio in the process). My brain hurts just thinking about it.

The only sensible, practical and cost effective way to achieve true 1080/24p @ 72hz without problems is with a native 1080/24p source being inputted at 1080/24p. This wasn’t possible until Blu-Ray/HD-DVD, hence no need for 72hz support on the vast majority of consumer displays up until now.

[DavoNogo]

http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/220673

"GUIDE: CONVERT PAL TO NTSC"

hmph.. I'll definately look into it

[Owen]

That's not entirely true mate, and is a common misconception with digital displays. It depends entirely on the technology. Plasmas for instance refresh the screen phospors in a similar fashion to CRT, but rather the whole screen is refreshed at the same time (either 50 or 60 times a second) rather than line by line. Although flicker is nothing like that on a CRT, it is still noticeable, and there is a big difference between 50hz and 60hz flicker (I can easily see 50hz flicker on a plasma in my peripheral vision, but can’t see any with 60hz).

In any case 1080/24p is generally being designed to be displayed at 72hz, presumably because this is an easily achievable refresh/sync rate to be engineered and compatible across all display types.

That’s why I said “on most digital displays”.

Plasma is the only digital display that has flicker issues as fare as I know.

LCD in both flat panel and projection form, as well as LCoS and SXRD have no flicker under any circumstances.

Running 72Hz on these displays achieves nothing, as repeated frames result in no screen update.

DLP’s are similar, except that the mirrors run at about 300Hz from memory.

Component doesn’t even support 1080p AFAIK (not enough bandwidth and not to mention no 1080p capable sources will deliver this resolution over component anyway) so there’s no chance of that. It’s either 1080/24p over HDMI or 720p/1080i over HDMI (and component for broadcast HD).

Component has PLENTY of bandwidth to handle 1080p 24 as it used LESS bandwidth then 1080i 50Hz.

1080p 24p delivers 24 full frames per second, while 1080i 50Hz deliver 25 full frames per second.

However, I don’t think that 1080p 24 is supported via Component.

yeah the wmvhd are the only ones around but there are more about than they let on .I'm not going to post on here were to get them though.

I have one of the only official 1080p WMV releases (Terminator 2 Extreme DVD) and find it very unimpressive.

It’s no where near as good as 1080i 18Mbit Mpeg2 from US HDTV networks for whatever reason.

The same goes for all the WMV 1080p sample files on the Microsoft site.

They are very smooth and filtered with fine detail missing, as well as noticeable Posterization.

The same titles in 1080i 18Mbit Mpeg2 are better. (I have several titles in both formats)

As for the other 1080p WMV movies on the net, well they have been created by getting a 1080i transport stream for a US TV network and decompressing it, doing 3:2 pulldown to get 24fps and recompressing in WMV format.

A complete waste of time, and worse quality then the original Mpeg2 transport stream.

A HTPC running Reclock can play 25fps video at 24fps with corrected sound.

The advantages of a HTPC are never ending.

[mybrains]

Owen, sounds like the WMV are compressed too much. any Mpeg/Jpeg system works on compacting by throwing away fine detail that u cant see (and inter frame with mpeg). The narrower the bandwidth, the more it throws away so its sorta the evil enemy of HD with lots of fine scan lines...

Could also be a side effect of the WMV codec in use. ie its implemtation? . I have been most impressed with the DivxHD demos even though the are 720p. Yeah the WMVHD ones looked average. got em all.

Also I pulled down the Apple H264 demos. Yucko. Only 1 looked HD, the rest looked very MEd-D! again 720p. btw, this codec spins my AMD64 3400 to 100% cpu and keeps it there. Seems Divx is the better for cpu usage.

Im collecting home brew Xvid samples in 720p & 1080p now, but my first sample again was not as good as DivxHD and drove the CPU to 100%.

My fusion 1080i captures of some of our live stuff looks best so far

In conclusion, I'd now consider DivxHD and a dvd/media player than supports it. I'd be even tempted to encode some of my 1080i captures into this format for storage

[DavoNogo]

I have one of the only official 1080p WMV releases (Terminator 2 Extreme DVD) and find it very unimpressive.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have the same DVD, only my one shows that the resolution is actually 816p.

Also I pulled down the Apple H264 demos. Yucko. Only 1 looked HD, the rest looked very MEd-D! smile.gif again 720p. btw, this codec spins my AMD64 3400 to 100% cpu and keeps it there. Seems Divx is the better for cpu usage.

They have 1080p ones:

http://pdl.warnerbros.com/wbmovies/vforven..._reflect_HD.zip

http://images.apple.com/movies/us/hd_galle...0/bbc_1080p.zip

http://images.apple.com/movies/us/hd_galle...enity_1080p.zip

Check out the two latest ones:

http://www.apple.com/quicktime/guide/hd/bbc-africa.html

http://www.apple.com/quicktime/guide/hd/cornell.html

[Owen]

I have the same DVD, only my one shows that the resolution is actually 816p.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That because its wide aspect ratio with black bars top and bottom, so there is only 816 active lines.

They did the right thing to not waste bits by encoding the black bars. Resolution is still 1080p.

I just played it again, as I have not looked at it in along while.

It's actually not bad in parts, I thing the original film is the problem a lot of the time because some scenes look very good

[Darklord]

That's not entirely true mate, and is a common misconception with digital displays. It depends entirely on the technology. Plasmas for instance refresh the screen phospors in a similar fashion to CRT, but rather the whole screen is refreshed at the same time (either 50 or 60 times a second) rather than line by line. Although flicker is nothing like that on a CRT, it is still noticeable, and there is a big difference between 50hz and 60hz flicker (I can easily see 50hz flicker on a plasma in my peripheral vision, but can’t see any with 60hz).

In any case 1080/24p is generally being designed to be displayed at 72hz, presumably because this is an easily achievable refresh/sync rate to be engineered and compatible across all display types.

That’s why I said “on most digital displays”.

Sorry. I missed the “most” part .

LCD in both flat panel and projection form, as well as LCoS and  SXRD have no flicker under any circumstances.

Running 72Hz on these displays achieves nothing, as repeated frames result in no screen update.

DLP’s are similar, except that the mirrors run at about 300Hz from memory.

You’re absolutely right about LCD, LCOS, and SXRD, but I think as you alluded to that DLP’s refresh is determined by the speed at which the mirrors tilt, so there can still be some level of fullscreen flicker at different refresh rates as the mirrors update position. I’m really not 100% sure on this though to be honest.

I imagine SED will also be like CRT in terms of flicker and various refresh rates, as it is of course very similar technology. The only difference being every phosphor has it’s own electron emitter, and like plasma the entire screen will be updated at once, rather than line by line.

So yes, there’s no doubt that you are correct when you say have nothing to gain by running 72hz on some digital displays, but on other types like plasma (and of course all analogue CRTs) you certainly do. I guess that’s why they came up with 72hz as the “sweet spot” standard, as it’s easily compatible with any display technology on the market (present and future) and will provide perfect 3:3 presentation with no flicker, or further introduced judder (only the natural original 24fps film judder) regardless of display type. Some displays may be able to take the 1080/24p signal and display it “as is” @ 24hz, but as far as I’m aware 72hz will be the common industry standard for 24p presentation.

Component has PLENTY of bandwidth to handle 1080p 24 as it used LESS bandwidth then 1080i 50Hz.

Good point. I actually can’t believe I said that, as I knew full well that was the case (I’ve even argued his there before on several occasions!) Doh!

However, I don’t think that 1080p 24 is supported via Component.

That’s more the point I was trying to get across with that statement. 1080/24p support will definitely be over HDMI/DVI only.

I have one of the only official 1080p WMV releases (Terminator 2 Extreme DVD) and find it very unimpressive.

It’s no where near as good as 1080i 18Mbit Mpeg2 from US HDTV networks for whatever reason.

The same goes for all the WMV 1080p sample files on the Microsoft site.

They are very smooth and filtered with fine detail missing, as well as noticeable Posterization.

The same titles in 1080i 18Mbit Mpeg2 are better. (I have several titles in both formats)

I’d have to agree with the above. Everyone I’ve spoken to agrees that the 1080p version of Terminator 2 is one of the worst examples of WMVHD quality. It’s extremely soft with little in the way of extra detail over the SD Extreme Edition.

Remember too that all of the examples on the MS website are VERY compressed (we’re talking as low as 6mbps for 1080/24p!) so they aren’t indicative of what the format is capable of overall at higher bit rates. They are however a good indication of the efficiency of WMV compression. Can you imagine how bad 1080/24p MPEG2 would look at 6mbps in comparison!

VC-1 (the enhanced version of the WMV codec being used for both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD) will be encoded at much higher bit rates most of the time, meaning the same level of detail of MPEG2 can be achieved at lesser bit-rates. VC-1 (WMV) and AVC (H.264) can also occupy a higher colourspace (several options for compression there) meaning the capability for far better colour rendition, and less colour banding than seen with MPEG2 at 4:2:2. But yes, ultimately they still need a much higher bit-rate for true HD quality than what we’ve seen from Microsoft’s basic sample clips so far.

The best looking example I’ve seen of what WMV is capable of is the 1080p version of Amazon (the full IMAX film found on the R1 DVD). It’s still encoded at a less than optimal bit-rate, and still falls way short of the best MPEG2 I’ve seen, but taking that into account the level of detail in some scenes is stunning. Step Into Liquid 720p is pretty good too, but still unfortunately over-compressed.

Remember the world’s most famously fussy videophile, HD engineer Joe Kane and creator of Digital Video Essentials, officially backs VC-1 as the HD codec of choice for the future, so it’s obviously pretty special when done right

[DavoNogo]

and less colour banding than seen with MPEG2 at 4:2:2.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've never really seen much colour banding with 4:2:0, but yes, colour reproduction would be awesome nontheless.

I agree about T2 WMVHD vs. the T2 DVD. there isn't much difference between the two except for a resolution change. But then the DVD did use the exact same transfer as the WMVHD one, instead of a SD transfer like they always use.

[mybrains]

This is geat info guys, keep it coming

thanks!

[wixy1503559655]

I was wondering, how easy is it to import a tv such as a 1080p 37" lcd like the sceptre brand? These things go for less than 2k in the us.