How much better

[Guest jakeyb77]

I never saw myself having $10000 speakers but I sure am bloody glad I do. The difference is astonishing to what I've had before. But that's my experience. I don't really think about $$. I don't mind if people have cheap systems or ultra mega systems as long as that's what they want. 

 

[Jones99]

Listen to the equipment and make your own mind up....... fly/bus/train/drive/walk and hear as many systems equipment as you can .I do not profess to have golden ears but I have made a lot of effort to hear gear that has caught my attention or interest by whatever means I can .Some systems/gear have impressed some have utterly disappointed . Whether the gear is worth the price of admission solely depends on your priorities and budget.

[Guest Eggcup The Daft]

12 hours ago, frankn said:

Being pedantic, the absolute is hearing the music live as it was being played. Once recorded it is degraded, no matter what the medium. It is then further degraded as it is mastered, further degraded when played back so once recorded the absolute can never be heard again. There is a recorded reference - the studio master but you will be unlikely to ever hear it. 

Especially if MQA gains traction. So I think my proposition stands. 

There was a story in the old Hi-Fi Answers magazine. It concerned a turntable designer and a friend who listened blind to his designs.

Part of the conversation was always that violin sounded wrong on the new design. Every time the designer improved the new turntable, his friend said that violin sounded worse.

Anyway, one day the friend turned up and listened again to some solo violin. "That's the worst yet".

 

Then the violinist introduced himself.

 

I just don't see how you can make the right choices in a vacuum. I accept your proposition - but only in context.

[Roumelio.]

On 06/07/2017 at 1:33 PM, Happy said:

It's interesting folks talk about how it's not about how expensive the stuff is yet when it comes to For Sale and gear recommendation threads the consensus appears there's a limit you cannot overcome unless you can spend a lot. 

 

I'm aware of what expensive PA and monitoring gear can do, I was sitting in a properly treated acoustic mixing room the other day in Melbourne listening to a gold master of a friends new album, pre-release, mixed by the same types of guys responsible for Dallas Frasca and other well known Melbourne bands. People who have made it. Some other people like the friend in question who should have made it if they weren't screwed by Sony/BMG. Oh well that's the law of diminishing returns and recording companies in themselves.

 

To be honest, the older I get the less this entertains me. I have a room full of vintage monitoring gear, I have a set of Rogers Exports sitting under my desk right now as we speak, going through a Pioneer SA-400, and a twin driver Onkyo sub-woofer. I could just as easily choose to drag out a set of Yamaha NS10s though, it's just crap lying around in the abode... Being not spoiled for choices... the older I get the less I care. Really, its a game, and its one that simply does not entertain me in any way anymore. You reach a point where it sounds good to you and that's all that matters.

 

Sure I can walk in and spout a bunch of nonsense and ask for a "burger with the lot" at a Hi-Fi store.  I Have done that in the past, but I'm not interested really. Beacause: 

 

Well, number 1 is you ask for "a burger with the lot" and "you have the cash to pay for it out of your pocket" Well... the Likelihood is that you're going to find the local vulture trying to up sell components.

 

Number 2 is, I have no interest in keeping up with the Jones's anymore at all. I'm sure I can, and yes there is something better than what I have right now, I've settled on vintage components that probably aren't the best now, but were more than good at the time. However, it doesn't even begin to entertain me and at some point you just reach the law of diminishing returns...

 

I'd rather have a beater than be someone looking to be a Saturday night Millionaire. Honestly, I just hate snobs.

Edited July 7, 2017 by Roumelio.

[Happy]

@Roumelio. I'm curious. Sounds like this audio thing doesn't really interest you anymore. So why are fussing with it on an internet forum like this? Not intended to offend etc at all. I was out of this game for about a year myself until recently during that time I didn't participate in any forums. 

[Roumelio.]

It interests me to the point of listening to what I listen to, but I'm not that interested in one upmanship any longer.

[Guest jakeyb77]

1 hour ago, Roumelio. said:

 

I'm aware of what expensive PA and monitoring gear can do, I was sitting in a properly treated acoustic mixing room the other day in Melbourne listening to a gold master of a friends new album, pre-release, mixed by the same types of guys responsible for Dallas Frasca and other well known Melbourne bands. People who have made it. Some other people like the friend in question who should have made it if they weren't screwed by Sony/BMG. Oh well that's the law of diminishing returns and recording companies in themselves.

 

To be honest, the older I get the less this entertains me. I have a room full of vintage monitoring gear, I have a set of Rogers Exports sitting under my desk right now as we speak, going through a Pioneer SA-400, and a twin driver Onkyo sub-woofer. I could just as easily choose to drag out a set of Yamaha NS10s though, it's just crap lying around in the abode... Being not spoiled for choices... the older I get the less I care. Really, its a game, and its one that simply does not entertain me in any way anymore. You reach a point where it sounds good to you and that's all that matters.

 

Sure I can walk in and spout a bunch of nonsense and ask for a "burger with the lot" at a Hi-Fi store.  I Have done that in the past, but I'm not interested really. Beacause: 

 

Well, number 1 is you ask for "a burger with the lot" and "you have the cash to pay for it out of your pocket" Well... the Likelihood is that you're going to find the local vulture trying to up sell components.

 

Number 2 is, I have no interest in keeping up with the Jones's anymore at all. I'm sure I can, and yes there is something better than what I have right now, I've settled on vintage components that probably aren't the best now, but were more than good at the time. However, it doesn't even begin to entertain me and at some point you just reach the law of diminishing returns...

 

I'd rather have a beater than be someone looking to be a Saturday night Millionaire. Honestly, I just hate snobs.

 

While I'm happy for your choice, your post assumes that anyone paying a high price for gear is a snob trying to impress everyone. I look at @alistairm's system and I see expense I'll never likely achieve but do I get jealous or think he's showing off? Nah I think man that's cool. I'm pretty sure he couldn't give a stuff if he was sitting in the sweet spot and no one else knew what was there. 

My Dad says buying my son a babycino is a rediculous extravagance. $2 for a small cup of froth with chocolate he says. But he doesn't see that the smile on my boy's face is priceless. Value is not just material. 

[Happy]

You're spoiling the boy big time @Jakeyb77

[Roumelio.]

9 minutes ago, Jakeyb77 said:

 

While I'm happy for your choice, your post assumes that anyone paying a high price for gear is a snob trying to impress everyone. I look at @alistairm's system and I see expense I'll never likely achieve but do I get jealous or think he's showing off? Nah I think man that's cool. I'm pretty sure he couldn't give a stuff if he was sitting in the sweet spot and no one else knew what was there. 

My Dad says buying my son a babycino is a rediculous extravagance. $2 for a small cup of froth with chocolate he says. But he doesn't see that the smile on my boy's face is priceless. Value is not just material. 

 

He seems like he has a lot of interesting components coming and going through his hands. I agree It's interesting to look at, but I'm quite happy to play in the vintage corner at the moment seeing what I can do with things that people have otherwise thrown away.

[Guest jakeyb77]

10 minutes ago, Roumelio. said:

 

He seems like he has a lot of interesting components coming and going through his hands. I agree It's interesting to look at, but I'm quite happy to play in the vintage corner at the moment seeing what I can do with things that people have otherwise thrown away.

 

Well that's your choice and that's great. I totally agree if that suits your needs and wants. It was more in response to your statement that expensive gear is only purchased to impress others. While I agree some of that may happen, I wouldn't be assuming that of everyone with high end gear. Also others piggy banks are bigger than others and you don't get that without hard work so I wish them well. Buy the toys that you want with your hard earned I say. 

[Roumelio.]

If you want to spend your money on expensive Hi-Fi gear that's cool also. Everyone has different interests. Music is just one of mine. Some people have a far bigger interest in it than I do also. It's not really a matter of bank account.

Edited July 7, 2017 by Roumelio.

[TerryO]

I seriously doubt that many people, especially those on this forum, buy top end audio gear to impress others, most of the photo's I have ever seen of peoples far more expensive systems than mine have them set up in rather modest rooms with modest furnishings, meaning most of if not all of their spare money goes into their hobby. 

To me that would indicate that most people are involved with this hobby because it is their passion not some thing that they use as a bragging platform.

 

cheers Terry

Edited July 7, 2017 by TerryO

[Happy]

it's such a niche market to swing around what you have and feel great about it. 

 

but i don't wanna discount the pleasure of feeling exclusive about the expensive gear. is it to be looked down upon? i find that sort of approach to be as hypocritical as the usual 'it's all about music' on an audio forum. 

[Oenophile]

I am a wine geek and participate in international wine forums where many fancy pants wines are discussed and tasted, with many posters regularly busting bottles worth about the same as a new car. After all it is just fermented grape juice, but to some people who are able to discern infinitesimally small differences, they perceive ultra premium wines as value or QPR.

Following a number of the discussions on this board makes me think that a wine geek and a hifi geek grapple with the identical philosophical questions.....

 

[TerryO]

52 minutes ago, Oenophile said:

I am a wine geek and participate in international wine forums where many fancy pants wines are discussed and tasted, with many posters regularly busting bottles worth about the same as a new car. After all it is just fermented grape juice, but to some people who are able to discern infinitesimally small differences, they perceive ultra premium wines as value or QPR.

Following a number of the discussions on this board makes me think that a wine geek and a hifi geek grapple with the identical philosophical questions.....

 

 

Through out most of my life I have been involved in motorcycle racing, either as a competitor, team owner or now as a event promoter. I have never forgotten something a Pommy racer on a bus in Hong Kong going down to catch the then Hydrofoil, which you used to catch back in the 90's, over to Macau said to me about racing. It was in fact a question, he asked me, How much does it cost to go racing? I sat there trying to add up the costs and after a short while he said stop trying to add it up, the answer is, it costs everything. 

He was right, ones passion whether it is motorcycle racing, 4WDriving, Hifi, Vino etc, usually costs diehards every cent they have and often for those with little restraint, like myself at the moment, more than they can afford.

 

cheers Terry

Edited July 7, 2017 by TerryO

[Roumelio.]

It's true. Quality Hi-Fi gear to me is one infinitesimally small component of what I do. No doubt I enjoy it, it grew up out of growing up in the back of a transit van, and going to gigs with my dad since I was knee high to a grasshopper and meeting some very interesting people along the way. It's not my be all and end all. At the moment that's my ongoing pursuit towards academics. Every person has different things that drive me. Throwing everything I have at expensive things I could probably afford is something I used to do particularly with car audio when I was younger. Right now I'm actually more into all things vintage, Hi-Fi, cameras, electronics. I agree if you love something, why not throw everything at it. Whatever that is, but I also like those people like Dallas Frasca and Goat Boy that can play on a global stage in front of 10s of thousands then come out and have a drink in a pub in Melbourne with practical nobodies.

[Wayne Elliott]

On 06/07/2017 at 7:00 PM, crisis said:

What improvement? How does this improvement manifest itself? Will it be vaguely related to $s?

 

This line of discussion is largely rhetorical. And I am interested in how we justify adding extra 0s to the price tags of equipment. I fully expect that a $30,000 amp will sound better than a $3000 one. But I haven't heard one and I am interested in how much? I also am quite happy with my system although, I have been exposed to 30 years of HiFi magazines that tell me that there are always "improvements" to be had. I am not entirely sure I want to go out and hear how much better the $30,000 amp sounds because I may then feel dissatisfied. And if I could ever justify purchasing the $30,000 amp what happens when I hear a $60,000 one?

With all things being equal, say a quality $8,000 to a quality $20,000 system, the improvement will manifest itself in greater musical involvement, at least in my case. I base what I try to get close to with my set-ups on live music gigs,of which I've experienced many thousands, i.e., I want the music to "move me", experience it fully in mind and body. As I've stated before do not correlate something as being "better" just because it is more expensive. I've had a greater musical experience with a well thought out $8,000 system than a poor $20,000 system. Going to extremes I have heard $100k + Speakers that I havn't "enjoyed" as much as my budget Pioneer SP-FS52's in my kitchen system!

 

 

[Guest guru]

Anyone who spends money on an audio system does it for a passion, either the gear or the tunes or both. Either passion are equally valid and to be celebrated. I'm lucky because I enjoy both the music and the equipment at all levels, both inexpensive and very expensive and all levels inbetween. Interestingly, only having one brand to choose from gives a relative perspective on what something costs and if it sounds better than a cheaper version or a more expensive version, especially as some of the circuit designs are very similar and only component choices and power supplies vary. Even down to speakers which only vary in terms of cable, magnet material and x-over and yet the the prices vary greatly. Just grist for the mill.

[crisis]

6 hours ago, Oenophile said:

I am a wine geek and participate in international wine forums where many fancy pants wines are discussed and tasted, with many posters regularly busting bottles worth about the same as a new car. After all it is just fermented grape juice, but to some people who are able to discern infinitesimally small differences, they perceive ultra premium wines as value or QPR.

Following a number of the discussions on this board makes me think that a wine geek and a hifi geek grapple with the identical philosophical questions.....

 

No. Wine is subjective. Despite what wine tasters and experts say and indeed understand it is of little consequence to the drinker. When you drink wine you have to "like" it. Now I have come across many people who drink wine that other people like because they want to be seen to like what the experts like, But there is no wine that is "accurate" to the source. That would taste like ****.

 

2 hours ago, initforthemusic said:

With all things being equal, say a quality $8,000 to a quality $20,000 system, the improvement will manifest itself in greater musical involvement, at least in my case.            

 

What does "involvement" sound like to you?

 

2 hours ago, initforthemusic said:

 I base what I try to get close to with my set-ups on live music gigs,of which I've experienced many thousands, i.e.,       

"Live"? meaning un amplified acoustic gigs?

2 hours ago, initforthemusic said:

I want the music to "move me", experience it fully in mind and body. As I've stated before do not correlate something as being "better" just because it is more expensive. I've had a greater musical experience with a well thought out $8,000 system than a poor $20,000 system. Going to extremes I have heard $100k + Speakers that I havn't "enjoyed" as much as my budget Pioneer SP-FS52's in my kitchen system!

 

So a $8000, $30,000 amp/speaker doesn't have a quantifiable improvement over a $1500/$3000 one?

[Wayne Elliott]

2 minutes ago, crisis said:

 

 

 

What does "involvement" sound like to you?

 

 

When you "experience" the music, rather than just hear it.

[Wayne Elliott]

6 minutes ago, crisis said:

 

 

 

"Live"? meaning un amplified acoustic gigs?

 

Marshall stacks turned up to 11!

[Wayne Elliott]

9 minutes ago, crisis said:

 

So a $8000, $30,000 amp/speaker doesn't have a quantifiable improvement over a $1500/$3000 one?

Done right, $8,000/$30,000 will be a massive improvement.

[crisis]

On 7/7/2017 at 11:05 PM, initforthemusic said:

When you "experience" the music, rather than just hear it.

Its a bit ambiguous. I hate it when What HiFi use that term. It always sounds to me like they use it as an excuse. I do understand how you feel music though but that is possible with quite modest equipment.

 

On 7/7/2017 at 11:08 PM, initforthemusic said:

Marshall stacks turned up to 11!

lol. Rarely if ever can anyone listen to that. Never will you hear a "Marshall stack" at a live concert that hasn't been miced though a thousand meters of cables, processors, desk and back to PA speakers. Live concerts of amplified music resemble the sound of actual instrument far less accurately than do studio recorded albums.

Edited July 9, 2017 by crisis

[Guest Eggcup The Daft]

17 hours ago, initforthemusic said:

Marshall stacks turned up to 11!

Not deaf yet?

[andyr]

6 hours ago, crisis said:

 

Its a bit ambiguous. I hate it when What HiFi use that term. It always sounds to me like they use it as an excuse. I do understand how you fell music though but that is possible with quite modest equipment.

 

 

I'm thinking (given your comments on this post - which you started) that you must be an engineer?

 

IOW, measurement is king ... forget feeling!

 

Andy

 

Edited July 8, 2017 by andyr