Bunno77 Posted June 26, 2017 Posted June 26, 2017 (edited) Just saw this on Audio Research's Facebook page. It is exactly what I experienced when working for a retailer and being able to experiment with gear from all sorts of budgets. So many speakers are choked by cheap/poor electronics and AVR's and never perform at their potential......... Hierarchy - Where to start Dave G., Brand Ambassador A few years ago, our chief engineer asked for a new pair of small speakers to put on his bench to replace an ancient pair of well-worn Fultons. A pair of PSB Alphas would be perfect, compact and a great value. Instead of dropping them off in engineering when they arrived, we stuck the Alphas on a pair of stands in our large sound room, hooked them up to some serious electronics, and fired up the system. With modest expectations, we were unprepared for what we heard. The sound was beyond surprising, it was shockingly good, with an engaging presentation that was very natural, clear, and with excellent imaging. They made music! Very few owners know what their Alphas are capable of because they’re normally hooked up to inexpensive electronics, maybe a modest integrated amp, not reference-level electronics. In our sound room, we were hearing the performance these speakers were capable of delivering. Among the lines I sold in retail back in the ‘80s, Linn (which manufactured only turntable and speaker systems at the time) insisted the most important component was the source, not the speakers as most people thought. They said if you lose information at the source, you can’t get it back farther down the line. In those days, you began with the phono cartridge, then the tonearm/turntable, then the electronics, then the speakers. It made sense and still does, even if most people want to start with the most personal choice of all, the speakers. Our experience with those $280 Alphas reminded me that Linn’s contention was correct. Today we have access to so many wonderful high-resolution analog and digital sources: You don’t want to lose the information (the music!) in the pipeline to your speakers. Start with a great source and feed it to the best preamp you can get because a great amp can’t compensate for a mediocre preamp—it just amplifies what it’s fed. It seems so simple, but the preamp makes an incredible (and immediately obvious) difference. Then, find the best amplifier you can get your hands on to feed your speakers what they deserve, all of the musical information possible. Then relax, enjoy the music, and forget about the hardware. Sent from my JAZZ using Tapatalk Edited June 26, 2017 by Bunno77 additions 2
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted June 26, 2017 Volunteer Posted June 26, 2017 Well of course a company that doesn't make speakers would de-emphasise their importance. 6
Happy Posted June 26, 2017 Posted June 26, 2017 Good to see the Alphas get a good word but have they directly compared them to more expensive speakers? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Bunno77 Posted June 26, 2017 Author Posted June 26, 2017 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said: Well of course a company that doesn't make speakers would de-emphasise their importance. Of course, I thought that too but it mirrors my experience and they do hold a little more validity now being under the same baneer that owns Sonus Faber Edited June 26, 2017 by Bunno77 .
Bunno77 Posted June 26, 2017 Author Posted June 26, 2017 4 minutes ago, Happy said: Good to see the Alphas get a good word but have they directly compared them to more expensive speakers? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I guess the Fultons and the Sonus Fabers in the pic
Happy Posted June 26, 2017 Posted June 26, 2017 I guess the Fultons and the Sonus Fabers in the pic A big maybe. They made nil mention of it. I highly doubt they'd have said the Alphas were as good as the big boys let alone being better.But it is an entertaining read. Makes you wanna have the old fashioned audiophile fun with rolling amps.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
AudioGeek Posted June 26, 2017 Posted June 26, 2017 PSB also have a powered version of the Alpha.... So spend $300-500 on speakers, and then $40k on electronics. Sounds like a plan! 1
WhakPak Posted June 26, 2017 Posted June 26, 2017 And this comes as a surprise? It's why my cheap DefTech BP10 sound so good. 1
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted June 26, 2017 Volunteer Posted June 26, 2017 From the stereophile review of the alphas The drop below 6 ohms between 120Hz and 350Hz implies that mid-fi receivers need not apply for the job of driving this little PSB, though it is actually a very easy load in the midrange and above.Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/psb-alpha-loudspeaker-measurements#K2b1IEUwg5pleBBz.99 so perhaps it's more that some speakers require better electronics than their price-point would suggest 3
Bunno77 Posted June 26, 2017 Author Posted June 26, 2017 PSB also have a powered version of the Alpha.... So spend $300-500 on speakers, and then $40k on electronics. Sounds like a plan! Of course not, there is a point of stupidity but the general idea is what I experienced with many speakers and amps. Sent from my JAZZ using Tapatalk
Happy Posted June 26, 2017 Posted June 26, 2017 5 minutes ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said: From the stereophile review of the alphas The drop below 6 ohms between 120Hz and 350Hz implies that mid-fi receivers need not apply for the job of driving this little PSB, though it is actually a very easy load in the midrange and above.Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/psb-alpha-loudspeaker-measurements#K2b1IEUwg5pleBBz.99 so perhaps it's more that some speakers require better electronics than their price-point would suggest Black box receivers. Are they good at driving anything really when Stereophile is involved
Bunno77 Posted June 26, 2017 Author Posted June 26, 2017 A big maybe. They made nil mention of it. I highly doubt they'd have said the Alphas were as good as the big boys let alone being better.But it is an entertaining read. Makes you wanna have the old fashioned audiophile fun with rolling amps.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Of course but like it says they were expecting very little but enjoyed it. Everyone can hear when a system sounds good or bad. Sent from my JAZZ using Tapatalk
AudioGeek Posted June 26, 2017 Posted June 26, 2017 6 minutes ago, Bunno77 said: Of course not, there is a point of stupidity but the general idea is what I experienced with many speakers and amps. Sent from my JAZZ using Tapatalk I have heard it as well. Also heard the reverse where a cheap amps have equaled or bettered much more expensive brands. There is no universal solution, ultimately it comes down to personal choice for sound and cost. I get what the article is suggesting, and I am a source believer. There example is quite ludicrous though
sjay Posted June 26, 2017 Posted June 26, 2017 I have a 20 yr old pair of Infinity RS 4.5's in rotation at the moment and, for their age, they sound very good when hooked up to my Arye KX5/VX5/MSB setup so I can confirm what the ARC people are saying above as true. 4
allthumbs Posted June 26, 2017 Posted June 26, 2017 Wasn't it recently that the owner or designer of Harbeth Speakers said just the opposite, ie more money for speakers and less for amplification? If these guys can't agree what hope for the rest of us? Maybe the cable aficionados were correct all along, it's not the source, nor the speaker but what lies between. 2
Happy Posted June 26, 2017 Posted June 26, 2017 Just now, allthumbs said: Wasn't it recently that the owner or designer of Harbeth Speakers said just the opposite, ie more money for speakers and less for amplification? If these guys can't agree what hope for the rest of us? Maybe the cable aficionados were correct all along, it's not the source, nor the speaker but what lies between. One would have thought the Harbie fans would follow Shaw like their religious leader. But they mostly don't like what the man says. Apparently Shaw knows nothing about amps or audio
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted June 26, 2017 Volunteer Posted June 26, 2017 3 minutes ago, allthumbs said: Wasn't it recently that the owner or designer of Harbeth Speakers said just the opposite, ie more money for speakers and less for amplification? Amp manufacturers think speakers matter less. Speaker makers saying amps don't matter. Is anyone surprised? 4
Wimbo Posted June 27, 2017 Posted June 27, 2017 Garbage in, garbage out. Totally agree on good source first. 2
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted June 27, 2017 Volunteer Posted June 27, 2017 3 minutes ago, Wimbo said: Garbage in, garbage out. Totally agree on good source first. Then the most important thing by a country mile, is the recording 2
t_mike Posted June 27, 2017 Posted June 27, 2017 Looks like all of us vinyl guys are going to have to buy a $15k cartridge for our Bose speakers to reach their potential. 2
tesla13BMW Posted June 27, 2017 Posted June 27, 2017 Audio reproduction is the result of a system. The weakest link in the system limits the result to be achieved. Recording, source, cables, amps, speakers, room and ears! Any one of these things could limit what is achieved. It is a balance and hence always an upgrade path unless of course you can go out and buy the best of everything in one go. But what fun would that be? 4
PleasantSounds Posted June 27, 2017 Posted June 27, 2017 The most important component of the audio system is your brain. Failing that, the next in line is your wallet. The rest just falls into place… 1
betty boop Posted June 27, 2017 Posted June 27, 2017 2 hours ago, Bunno77 said: Just saw this on Audio Research's Facebook page. It is exactly what I experienced when working for a retailer and being able to experiment with gear from all sorts of budgets. So many speakers are choked by cheap/poor electronics and AVR's and never perform at their potential......... not surprising and i agree with the sentiment. I know wiht myself some years ago looking to upgrade my mains it was very much obvious that the law diminishing returns very much applied to speakers to. can spend up but it doesnt necessarily bringing better but could just bringing different. depends on aspects chasing too. i picked up some ~$200 20 year old standmounts in mission 750LE's tiny little thing. do wonderfull mid range and superb top end, amazing sound stage and 3D holographic imaging. and a clean snappy sounding speaker. it is very easy to indeed over invest on the speaker... and then completely undernourish the source and amps (including disc players/dacs/processors pre amps, power amps/integrated units) a lot of this also comes down to system matching i feel. visiting whatmough the other week they had a lovely little system in the front room all it had was some old gen whatmough speakers (wiht the chisel edges) an arcam integrated and nad cd player... was beaut 2
rantan Posted June 27, 2017 Posted June 27, 2017 (edited) In my own experience I have always found that a modest quality pair of speakers driven by a premium quality amplifier gives a better result ( other things being equal ) than the reverse. Shaw has been pushing the amps-don't-matter barrow for years now and IMHO he is 100% wrong. Just listen to a pair of Super HL 5 with a crap receiver and you will know ( hear ) what I mean. Edited June 27, 2017 by rantan 6
Happy Posted June 27, 2017 Posted June 27, 2017 17 minutes ago, t_mike said: Looks like all of us vinyl guys are going to have to buy a $15k cartridge for our Bose speakers to reach their potential. Then them vinyl guys many of them think it's more in the turntable, arm and phono as opposed to the cartridge. Buy $30 cart and chuck it on $14,970 turntable instead please 1
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