Power cable discussion (anything goes) WARNING - DBTs will be discussed

[Addicted to music]

1 minute ago, scumbag said:

Wallet or cable?

 

If I get a full wallet, you know you're not getting it back...   

 

Arent i a very....very bad boy... 

[AudioGeek]

15 minutes ago, Addicted to music said:

 

Can I borrow it?

Iam in Sydney. Its bulky and heavy - not worth the postage, but can do if your really interested.

[Guest guru]

18 minutes ago, scumbag said:

Does getting stuck into the Porfidio count as double blind, blind or half-blind?

If you saw the measures I pour and the singular nature of that pour then you would have your answer quickly. War time rations come to mind.

[Cafad]

Well I've never heard a power cord make a difference but then I've only half heartedly tried.  I can say that I've found I prefer certain amps plugged directly into the wall socket rather than through power boards but on others I couldn't hear any difference.  

 

I would say that power cords are the last thing I'd spend my money on but since I've had a Consonance Ella Baby cord, bought several cords from NZ and still have a home made jobbie from a friendly neighborhood sparkie, I would be lying if I did.  

So I'll say this instead, even if it was conclusively proven in this thread that power cords do make a difference then I would still be placing them behind speaker cables and interconnects on my list of things to change to make an audible difference.

 

I am enjoying the thread though, so please, do continue.

[rantan]

 

In the interests of full disclosure , I did buy some second hand Audio Principe signature power cords at a very  good price as well as one direct from Peter before they increased in price. They don't make any discernible difference, that I can detect, but they don't owe me a lot and with their construction quality, they should last a lifetime

 

Directly opposed to this, was my recent purchase of new speaker and IC cables which made a OMG difference and improvement to my system. My humble advice if you want to spend on cables is to get speaker and IC cables and use the money you were going to spend on power cords to buy these instead

[rocky500]

Just did a quick search and found a quote from Alan Shaw.

 

" The point to stress here is that as we will surely have seen, the further separated in time exposure to X and Y are, the less precise our analysis of the events becomes. This is due to the electro-chemical nature of our brain: we do not store data as a hard disk does in certain, permanent bits and bytes. Our memory reduced the experience to some 'essential components' and stores that. How and why it selects certain features I do not know: we may even live with a partner our whole lives and not be able to pick-out the colour of their eyes or lips yet we recognise them immediately.

Because at the point of committing the experience to memory we 'data reduce' the experience (similar to lossy zip compression or lossy MP3) unless the contrast between the current experience and the ghost-memory of the previous experience is sufficiently dramatic, we are not able to detect a difference when separated by more than a second or so - as we've seen.

In my opinion, the proper evaluation of sound or image, taste or smell must be conducted under instantaneous A-B conditions, with as short a gap as possible. "

 

 

 

Now I understand why I do not hear differences in these tests. My brain must compress everything more than most.

I can watch a movie and then a month later, put it on and it is almost like watching it for the first time. My brother can remember a movie and all what is about to happen even 10 years later from watching it once.

Edited December 18, 2016 by rocky500

[Addicted to music]

I think most here would agree that IC make a difference. Whether it be RCA or XLR.  If I were to experiment on cables this is where I start, and you don't need a DBT to note the difference.

[sir sanders zingmore]

10 minutes ago, Addicted to music said:

and you don't need a DBT to note the difference.

 

I think this comment is indicative of a common misunderstanding of DBTs. 

For components like interconnects, where differences should be minuscule but seem large, this is precisely where you do need some sort of blind testing. 

To eliminate the sighted bias that more often than not, is the only cause of those large 'differences'

 

[Addicted to music]

17 minutes ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

 

I think this comment is indicative of a common misunderstanding of DBTs. 

For components like interconnects, where differences should be minuscule but seem large, this is precisely where you do need some sort of blind testing. 

To eliminate the sighted bias that more often than not, is the only cause of those large 'differences'

 

 

I don't think so, some of the  IC that I own is not "minuscule" between them.  They maybe identical in lengths, but different in materials used.  When you switch them, you do not need a DBT to distinguish between them.  And if I were to do a dBT I bet you will be able to tell which is which and point out which one is used even if It wasn't switch.

The same goes for changing a component on board level, if replaced a capacitor and go from electrolytic to MKP, or make a resistor change that is different in material in the "signal path" a trained ear will be able to pick it.  Anything that changes in the signal path will effect the final result,  

 

[Guest]

Is a bit of a bugger if you operate a 4 way active system, the IC's and power cables as there is more than a large shoe box chockers with those.

 

Mine has 6 power IEC's and 11 IC's at a minimum with 1 source unit, another 1 IEC and 4 IC's with the second source, a TT.

 

So, in conclusion found it is better to concentrate on the fact they all actually connect Ok and provide a decent pure power supply (mains) that is free of the hash and transformer chattering DC.

 

That has been the challenge and most influence on the final output of the system

Anyway, my 20c

[sir sanders zingmore]

1 hour ago, Addicted to music said:

And if I were to do a dBT I bet you will be able to tell which is which and point out which one is used even if It wasn't switch.

 

How much do you want to bet?  

[Soundwise]

36 minutes ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

 

How much do you want to bet?  

 

I'd be happy for you to come over and have a listen to my system. If you don't think there is any difference then I will accept your opinion. Everyone hears things differently. Even if we disagree on this one, we still share the same passion for audio. PM me if you're interested.

[rocky500]

Just wondering with these DBT's or BT's that anyone is suggesting with power cables.

How can you properly test them, as according to Alan Shaw from Harbeth in his tests

 

"we are not able to detect a difference when separated by more than a second or so"

 

[rocky500]

From reading the Harbeth forums, I would say Alan is a master, Guru etc of comparative tests in Audio.

He attributes his great success in business to exactly by doing the comparative tests in a precise way that give him repeatable meaningful results.

My quotes came from here

LINK

 

 

So unless you can test any cables (or any components, resistors, capacitors, circuits etc) by instantly switching it seems you could be possibly wasting your time as the results will not be relevant it seems.

Edited December 19, 2016 by rocky500

[sir sanders zingmore]

38 minutes ago, rocky500 said:

Just wondering with these DBT's or BT's that anyone is suggesting with power cables.

How can you properly test them, as according to Alan Shaw from Harbeth in his tests

 

"we are not able to detect a difference when separated by more than a second or so"

 

 

Sure, but opponents of DBTs complain about fast switching for all sorts of reasons (stressful, you need to live with the system for a while, etc). 

So doing a DBT with slow switching shouldn't be a problem for them, right ?

[Guest BobbyD]

18 minutes ago, rocky500 said:

From reading the Harbeth forums, I would say Alan is a master, Guru etc of comparative tests in Audio.

..... what!!!!  There is another guru?

 

Say it isn't so........

[rocky500]

3 minutes ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

 

Sure, but opponents of DBTs complain about fast switching for all sorts of reasons (stressful, you need to live with the system for a while, etc). 

So doing a DBT with slow switching shouldn't be a problem for them, right ?

I don't think it matters what anyone thinks.

You just want to do the tests properly is really all that matters.

Edited December 19, 2016 by rocky500

[sir sanders zingmore]

7 minutes ago, rocky500 said:

I don't think it matters what anyone thinks.

You just want to do the tests properly is really all that matters.

 

If someone claims large differences in sighted testing with slow switching then it's very informative to repeat the same test with knowledge removed. 

[Guest scumbag]

Here's how this (and other discussions) seem to play out:

 

Point 1: We can trust our ears:

Answer A. No, perception is fickle. When we listen we actually change the way that our brain perceives stimulus. 

A1. That's why we need DBT.

A2. That's why DBT does not work.

 

Answer B. Yes. That's how we:

B1. Know that we can trust DBT.

B2. Know that we don't need DBT.

 

So you can see why this is a bit confusing to an average punter???

[Guest scumbag]

Oh, and plus, no one really knows how to do DBT and/or it's impossible to do it properly (which seems like an act of shooting yourself in the foot if you are from the pro-DBT camp)

Or, I don't need DBT 'cause I know exactly what the effects of any changes made to my system are regardless of the circumstance under which I made them.

 

Did I leave anything out?

[sir sanders zingmore]

I'm not even talking about a DBT. 

Get your mate to switch the cables with telling you which is which. Leave them there as long or short as you like and see if you can tell the difference. 

 

If its suddenly a lot harder to tell, then ask yourself why (and be honest with yourself about it)

[Guest scumbag]

1 minute ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

I'm not even talking about a DBT. 

Get your mate to switch the cables with telling you which is which. Leave them there as long or short as you like and see if you can tell the difference. 

 

If its suddenly a lot harder to tell, then ask yourself why (and be honest with yourself about it)

Well BT but it's still blind testing of a sort though it won't pass muster with the "DBT is the only way to do it" crowd.

[sir sanders zingmore]

4 minutes ago, scumbag said:

Well BT but it's still blind testing of a sort though it won't pass muster with the "DBT is the only way to do it" crowd.

 

If it's not a DBT the it will be biased in favour of hearing a difference. 

If despite the odds being unfairly in your favour you, still can't hear a difference, what do you conclude?

[Guest scumbag]

1 minute ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

 

If it's not a DBT the it will be biased in favour of hearing a difference. 

If despite the odds being unfairly in your favour you, still can't hear a difference, what do you conclude?

That there's no difference. Or was that a trick question?

Edited December 19, 2016 by scumbag

[sir sanders zingmore]

3 minutes ago, scumbag said:

That there's no difference. Or was that a trick question?

 

Exactly 

no tricks. But most blind test naysayers come to a different conclusion