What makes some of the SS phono pres uber expensive?

[Happy]

Just curious. Is it the parts?

 

With tubes I can see how, but with SS not too sure why.

[betocool]

I suppose the fact that you have to amplify quite a bit, filter the signal evenly with high quality or matched components, and keep a low signal to noise ratio after that. Even more difficult with MC carts.

 

Imagine, you have to amplify that signal about a 1000 times while filtering. First of all, the signal will hopefully be clean enough, and then, somehow you have to keep it noise free all the way. If you hear some surface noise, it should be from the record, not the pre.

 

Just my opinion.

[Happy]

I suppose the fact that you have to amplify quite a bit, filter the signal evenly with high quality or matched components, and keep a low signal to noise ratio after that. Even more difficult with MC carts.

 

Imagine, you have to amplify that signal about a 1000 times while filtering. First of all, the signal will hopefully be clean enough, and then, somehow you have to keep it noise free all the way. If you hear some surface noise, it should be from the record, not the pre.

 

Just my opinion.

 

So do you think the parts that are required to achieve that goal are so expensive?

[pete_mac]

So do you think the parts that are required to achieve that goal are so expensive?

 

 

Some of the parts may not be that expensive in on a per-unit basis, but if they are being hand-matched to tight tolerances and components outside that tolerance range not used, it can start to become very time-consuming and more expensive than mass-produced gear where they simply install components direct from the supplier without any matching/tolerance checking.

[Mrs Bagcroft]

No, not expensive at all. It is alot to do with the Power supply as mentioned above. However,Id argue tubes are more of ***** to do properly.

I recently DIY'd a Elliot P06 phono pre. Simply SS pre, probably about $50 of parts, and it is stunning, really exceptional. It can be done on a budget before you start considering the big $$ items. One thing they may do better is noise suppression...I dont know because I havent heard any of the big ticket items. However, I notice zero noise issues I would blame the P06 for.

[audiofeline]

Profit margins, expensive tooling on cases, prestige, small production runs, etc. 

 

I'm not negating genuine factors like quality matched components, r+d, etc.  But I haven't noticed huge amounts of stuff in a phono stage, and they don't take up bulk and have huge heatsinks and transformers to add to shipping costs (like a mono poweramp). 

[Happy]

 But I haven't noticed huge amounts of stuff in a phono stage, and they don't take up bulk and have huge heatsinks and transformers to add to shipping costs (like a mono poweramp). 

 

hence my curiosity. can kinda see why some amps can cost so much, but not too sure with the phono pres.

[eltech]

Just curious. Is it the parts?

 

With tubes I can see how, but with SS not too sure why.

 

Hi David, I suspect if they create enough mistique around it and add a high price tag so it becomes exclusive (to those who can afford it) then it is a self fulfilling prophecy - it is expensive because its expensive, and its expensive because its good.

Having said that, i'm sure the expensive phono stages are good, and a fancy case is an expensive thing to make. But generally those on more modest budgets never get to compare to the expensive stuff, and likewise those who have bigger budgets dont bother to buy the more affordable gear. Its like the two paths never meet. Generally there is rarely an impartial person who compares affordable to uber priced gear. I dont consider magazines to be impartial when there are advertising dollars involved.

[Happy]

 and a fancy case is an expensive thing to make. 

 

one thing that strikes me odd is that you don't really see uber fancy cases in phono pres usually unlike power amps. 

 

expensive sure. but uber expensive, why?

 

Pete above mentioned things relating to precision tech, labour and niche demand. maybe that's it. but still hard to understand why uber expensive.

 

ok someone might say what's uber expensive. pls don't. we all sorta have a rough idea what it is.

[rockeater]

Profit margins, expensive tooling on cases, prestige, small production runs, etc. 

 

I'm not negating genuine factors like quality matched components, r+d, etc.  But I haven't noticed huge amounts of stuff in a phono stage, and they don't take up bulk and have huge heatsinks and transformers to add to shipping costs (like a mono poweramp). 

This is exactly right.

Purely profit margins and the fact that people are paying for it.

 

30 years ago, all amps - expensive and cheap - had phono stage.

There is nothing that engineers know now that they did not know 30 years ago.

The expensive ones had phono stages not inferior to the currently best, dedicated ones.

 

Naturally, there is an expense in having a separate component. The biggest expense is naturally the case (box), then power supply.

But for a single or dual stage low level amp, PSU is not really a problem or challenge.

 

If I still wanted to have TT, my solution would be to buy quality vintage pre-amp for its phono section. 

[pete_mac]

Pete above mentioned things relating to precision tech, labour and niche demand. maybe that's it. but still hard to understand why uber expensive.

 

 

Yeah, my comment only related to why the cost of building some 'boutique' gear can be higher than mass-produced gear (matching components does cost more). It's definitely not intended to justify the overall price of said gear - the raw components are a very small piece of the overall cost puzzle.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

I've told this story before, but it bears repeating:

Back in 1987 I visited a Hong Kong importer/dealer, in order to supply preamps and power amps that were made in Australia. The products were shipped to the dealer in advance, so he could warm them up and experience them. The dealer imported a very wide range of products, starting at the Wilson Audio WAMMs, down to some mid-range products.

When I arrived, I noted that the products I was representing were installed into the mid-range room. I asked why. He responded that, given the prices of the products, that seemed appropriate. I challenged him to move the preamp into his main room (preamp only, since integrating the power amp into the WAMM system would be far too difficult). He did just that and we spent the day listening and comparing. During that period, several of his regular customers popped in and offered their opinions. The preamp was priced at US$995.00 (Hong Kong RRP). We compared to American and European products costing up to around US$5,000.00. At the end of the day, we went for a meal and discussed the day and the findings. The dealer then presented the realities of life to me by saying:

"When a customer comes to buy a preamp from me, what do you think I will want to sell him? A preamp that nets me US$1,500.00 profit, or one that nets me US$250.00 profit?"

I then asked what we could do. He then suggested that the manufacturer should 'bling it up' a bit. Some gold plating here, some Italian marble there, expensive resistors, etc. That kind of thing. I asked about the sound quality. He was quite adamant that the sound quality was fine (it was at least as good as the expensive American and European items), so it should not be changed. It just needed to LOOK more expensive so he could sell it for between US3.5k and US$5k.

The manufacturer refused.

[eltech]

As others have said, low noise power supply is a good thing in a phono preamp, but in the DIY scene there are many recipes for very low noise power supplies and they dont cost much.

The TL431 shunt regulator chip costs cents. Add two resistors and you have a low noise power supply!

 

I'm sure the Nelson Pass pearl performs very well. Build it on veroboard. Or buy a non authorised knock off

 

People pay for stuff they can't build for themselves, and some are happy to pay for a fancy case. I think the case is the most expensive part

[betty boop]

this is one of the very nice SS MC phono pre's I've owned in the past

 

 

if reckon can make that for peanuts.... go for it ...

 

ps I ended up selling it... as good as it was....and it was a tough call...but preferred the match my tube phono pre made

[eltech]

one thing that strikes me odd is that you don't really see uber fancy cases in phono pres usually unlike power amps. 

In which case you should rightfully ask, what exactly are you paying for?

[Newman]

For every budget, there has to be product offerings that fit the budget and 'feel right' at that price point. People who spend $25,000 on a turntable want a 'commensurate' preamp, and that's not $393.61 less 5% on Fridays and wait I found a coupon.

 

Component costs have nothing to do with it in the premium goods market, honestly! Neither valve nor SS. If you think about component costs and query high prices, then you are not a shopper for the premium market: you are a value shopper. As such, you can expect to find, and will find with care, extremely high performance combined with prices that actually are a reflection of costs. As such you have a right to great listening satisfaction, but you need to be immune to having it eroded by people in the premium market wrongly insisting that your purchase is far less satisfying than theirs. That's life.

[Happy]

In which case you should rightfully ask, what exactly are you paying for?

 

doesn't bother me that some of us are paying uber amounts for fancy cases. so be it. but are they that expensive? as someone pointed out above, shipping's not even that expensive with phonos unlike monster amps.

[eltech]

this is one of the very nice SS MC phono pre's I've owned in the past

 

 

if reckon can make that for peanuts.... go for it ...

 

ps I ended up selling it... as good as it was....and it was a tough call...but preferred the match my tube phono pre made

Geez, thats a convoluted signal path if ever I've seen one.

 

BTW, I recon you could have that board made in China and populated with a machine for about $200 per board. The transformers are obviously the expensive part. Add $80 each in bulk. $5 for each RCA connector. Add $100 for the case. Add $20 for the power transformer.

Where was it made and how much did it cost?

[Happy]

Geez, thats a convoluted signal path if ever I've seen one.

 

BTW, I recon you could have that board made in China and populated with a machine for about $200 per board. The transformers are obviously the expensive part. Add $80 each in bulk. $5 for each RCA connector. Add $100 for the case. Add $20 for the power transformer.

Where was it made and how much did it cost?

 

and some of vintage units look way more complicated and bulky....yet they weren't uber expensive even at the time.

[eltech]

doesn't bother me that some of us are paying uber amounts for fancy cases. so be it. but are they that expensive? as someone pointed out above, shipping's not even that expensive with phonos unlike monster amps.

you're the one who mentioned that phono preamps dont often have fancy cases. Neither does it bother me what someone else does with their money.

I provided a link earlier to a whole different bunch of cases on ebay. relative to the price of a populated board, yes they are expensive, the cost of the case often equals the cost of the circuit board. Its probably a rort, knowing that people need to put the circuit board into a case!

Edited June 30, 2016 by eltech

[eltech]

and some of vintage units look way more complicated and bulky....yet they weren't uber expensive even at the time.

Im not that old, but from recollection, electronics were more expensive relative to wages in the 1980's than they are today.

1970's audio gear still used a lot of point to point wiring, which may account for its bulkyness.

[betty boop]

Geez, thats a convoluted signal path if ever I've seen one.

BTW, I recon you could have that board made in China and populated with a machine for about $200 per board. The transformers are obviously the expensive part. Add $80 each in bulk. $5 for each RCA connector. Add $100 for the case. Add $20 for the power transformer.

Where was it made and how much did it cost?

Go for it !

Of course chingwa copies are easy ! When all you do is copy with no investment in design or Developement !

Of course things are complex for a reason you can tell that from just looking at a low res photo without even looking at the circuit or components used ?

No worries so you are getting me one made for $405 ?

Tell me when I can have delivery. Also let me know when it is approved for use in Australia also let me know what my warranty is and where can take it for repair.

It amazes me constantly how people come up with numbers. Obviously worked in manufacturing and know what is involved to make consumer goods let alone bring to market

[Happy]

so was this uber expensive @@betty boop ?

[audiofeline]

doesn't bother me that some of us are paying uber amounts for fancy cases. so be it. but are they that expensive? as someone pointed out above, shipping's not even that expensive with phonos unlike monster amps.

Think of a high-end amp with an aluminum face which is 1cm think.  Firstly, you are paying for the metal (1cm thickness is a lot of metal compared to 2mm), and this adds a lot of weight, so add $ for packing and shipping.  Then factor in cnc machining, fancy finishing and engraving, etc.  It's a lot more than the old screen-printed metal face which are common on consumer level equipment. 

[blybo]

so was this uber expensive @@betty boop ?

knowing @@betty boop I bet it was a top end Musical Fidelity phono pre, so upper end of mass market