Al.M Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 One often reads audiophiles preferring soft dome tweeters over metal domes as being a metallic scratchy sound. Is that really so, well here's an interesting article that says it isn't. IMO metal domes seem to sound different but they come with advantages. http://www.axiomaudio.com/blog/drivers-and-the-myth-of-tweeter-dome-materials/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amkr Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 We auditioned about 20 different speakers a month ago in the $2600-$6000 price range. We didn't know much about any of the speakers except some sounded harsh and near offensive when things like cymbals were played. Turns out every speaker we had a specific dislike for had a metal tweeter. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hensa Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 I've listened to outstanding as well as ordinary examples of both metal domed tweeter speakers and silk dome tweeter speakers and currently own a couple of each. I think it's less about the actual material used and more about the implementation. I would be very surprised if there could be a finding that all metal domed tweeters sound harsh when so many manufacturers including those of some very expensive speakers, have determined through their own testing (and listening) that the metal domed tweeter best suits their particular application. Like anything in audio, subjective experiences of these things are just that - personal to the listener. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amkr Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 Fact is after auditioning nearly every speaker at 2 different large hifi stores, we couldn't find a metal dome tweeter that came close to the silk counterparts that we liked. I'm sure they exist, just not in our price bracket and in the ranges we heard. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Muon Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 Prefer fabric dome tweeters over metal ones myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloth Ears Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 (edited) Is it a case of the material used, or more the amplification, source and the implementation of the tweeter in the speaker? If you have a really good metallic or ceramic tweeter that is: crossed too low fed inferior source material (that's either the actual recording or the retrieval of information from it) amplified with inferior or non-matching amplifier then you can easily find the sound from the tweeter being harsh. Fabric dome tweeters are a lot more forgiving. The compromise you make is between revealing/fatiguing and musical enjoyment. Accuton drivers are notorious for being difficult to drive and they show up faults in your source and amplification very easily - but they are brilliant when they are got right (WAR Audio used to do a good job with them - but even they used to use Raven over Accuton in the tweeters for some of their speaker designs). Edited April 14, 2016 by Cloth Ears Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Muon Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 @@Cloth Ears I like your ears, natural materials are my preference if it vibrates or resonates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 Metal is natural tho Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Muon Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 Metal is natural tho Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Touche! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Muon Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 Still don't like metal dome tweeters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 one the most cutting like shards of glass sounding speakers have heard used a coated fabric each speaker have their overall sound....voicing....and depends what you are chasing... can also be a combination of gear run with one mans wine is another vinegar. one persons spritely lively, exuberant, sparkle is for another hard, cutting...over the top, bright....forward...in your face ! similarly while some will find some speakers will be smooth....mellow, warm, theres mind find the same.... laid back, relaxed, putting you to sleep, dull, boring such is life ...find what you are looking for ...plenty t choose from...last thing Id be worried about is tweeter type ! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GFuNK Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 My understanding is that they require very different design philosophies. Metal domes, ceramic or diamond tweeters are often designed to be driven in their pistonic range, ie, without cone breakup. Silk dome rely on controlled breakup. This results in differences in dispersion and distortion to name but two. Controlled breakup improves dispersion but can suffer from higher levels of distortion if the loss is not suitably high. Metal drivers usually have low loss and suffer nasty breakup outside the range of interest which can be difficult to control. Anyway point is there are inherent differences which means they will inevitably sound different. I've used controlled breakup drivers and love the sound. I'm very much interested in comparisons though with rigid drivers. Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloth Ears Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 (edited) @@Cloth Ears I like your ears, natural materials are my preference if it vibrates or resonates I'd have said linen, but sometimes they're cotton or just plain woolly! Metal is natural tho Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Mostly the oxide is the natural state. But then again, most fabrics do not occur naturally in their woven state (bloody plants and animals, making all that work)! The exceptions being the Weaver Caterpillar and the appropriately named Rattan Flax group of grasses. But I digress from the original line. I think betty put it best - horses for courses. Edited April 14, 2016 by Cloth Ears Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hensa Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 I found this article to be a fairly balanced view on the subject ... https://www.audioholics.com/av-research/fabric-vs-metal-dome-tweeters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Muon Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 one the most cutting like shards of glass sounding speakers have heard used a coated fabric each speaker have their overall sound....voicing....and depends what you are chasing... can also be a combination of gear run with one mans wine is another vinegar. one persons spritely lively, exuberant, sparkle is for another hard, cutting...over the top, bright....forward...in your face ! similarly while some will find some speakers will be smooth....mellow, warm, theres mind find the same.... laid back, relaxed, putting you to sleep, dull, boring such is life ...find what you are looking for ...plenty t choose from...last thing Id be worried about is tweeter type ! Agreed, there is more to a speaker than what is visible. And It's accurate that we all have different preferences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GFuNK Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 I think the challenge is: to compare them under the conditions of "all other things equal" I'd be interested in people's opinions on that one. Perhaps: same box, mounting geometry and cross-over frequency and both with similarly tight frequency response, ie, +- 0.25 dB with octave band smoothing. Sensitivity doesn't need to be matched but volume does. You'd probably want to feed them high pass filtered music to remove any masking due to differences in bass response as well. Then you'd need to repeat with a few examples to get a statistically significant result. We having fun yet Many of the characteristics described can come about due to the cross-over design. Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 It is completely simplistic to ascribe sonic stereotypes ( pun not intended ) based on the materials used in the driver construction and I agree with the others who say that implementation is the key factor in speaker design. The very best speakers are far more than the sum of their parts and no one method of technology guarantees superiority. Others may disagree, that's fine and I certainly don't claim to be any kind of engineer or scientist 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocky500 Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 (edited) If one was really superior over the other then every speaker maker would be using that one. What it looks like from the first linked article is Axiom have a good design that works well for them with a metal dome, so they use them. Edited April 15, 2016 by rocky500 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Muon Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 Materials have a sound when resonating though. So not without consideration IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasebass Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 We having fun yet Always.....and I like metal dome tweeters!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ex brickie Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 What about Beryllium?? I agree that metal tweeters are brighter than silk or paper. But as another SNA'er has said, top companies wouldn't use them without reason. I'd say that metal tweeters can be more fatiguing to listen to, but they are more accurate. AMKR's comments are interesting in that he didn't say silk was better - just preferred. Hardly surprising a cymbal sounds rather harsh - have you sat next to a cymbal when it is being played? If accurate reproduction is the name of the game then I suspect metal wins hands down Ultimately betty boop has got it about right.... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 One often reads audiophiles preferring soft dome tweeters over metal domes as being a metallic scratchy sound. Is that really so, well here's an interesting article that says it isn't. IMO metal domes seem to sound different but they come with advantages. http://www.axiomaudio.com/blog/drivers-and-the-myth-of-tweeter-dome-materials/ Many many times, we see that tweeters are compared .... and we note that they sound different from each other. People then draw a correlation between the sound they hear, and the materials of construction. However, rarely, if ever are tweeters compared when they have been configured to produce the same frequency response. If the tweeters are match within 1dB, this still represents ~20% difference. The automotive industry would not compare the performance of different tyres, using two cars, one of which had 20% more powerful engine. The point isn't that there is no way things diaphram material can have an effect on sound.... the point is that quite often, differences in sound are blamed on things such as diaphram material ..... when there are much more fundamental differences between the devices in play, that need to be accounted for first. I spent years on tweeters, perusing the ideology that metal domes were "better".... I still think in theory they are. What I discovered though, was there are things which matter 100 times more.... and now I would never imply anything about the sound of a speaker due the diaphram material or anything like that. There's simply too many much larger factors which will stomp all over it. FWIW - I now use mostly a soft dome tweeter (contrary to my beliefs stated above) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 implementation of the tweeter in the speaker? It is almost only this. I could (and do) use a $5 tweeter*, with some directivity control, and a good filter and cabinet design. It sounds ace. We could use a $500 tweeter with a poor accompanying design..... it would be completely un-listenable. * .... The tweeter actually costs $20, but never let the trust get in the way of a good story. crossed too low Interestingly, the issue in a typical hifi speaker is usually the opposite. Passive filters which are not steep or accurate enough, back people into the corner of a too high crossover point. fed inferior source material (that's either the actual recording or the retrieval of information from it) amplified with inferior or non-matching amplifier Source is always a potential problem .... although to objectively evaluate a speaker, we need to decouple it from the source material..... and worry more about whether the speaker is doing a good job of reproducing what it is sent (so if one day we improve our source material, we can be sure the improvement will be reproduced by the speaker). amplified with inferior or non-matching amplifier ... a bit like diaphram material IMO. Could be an issue .... but in reality, masked by a million bigger issues. (especially for a tweeter) Ultimately betty boop has got it about right.... I agree. In so far, he's noted there are wide ranging "opinions". I think what is easily missed, is that these varied opinions are often the result of inconsistent testing and/or faulty logic. Are V8 engine cars, "higher performance" than cars with smaller engines? Everyone go borrow one tonight, and we'll report back tomorrow and get a consensus?! Someone will drive an insane sports car which goes to 300km/h .... someone else will test drive a campervan.... and what is even the definition of "performance" when we are just having a test drive? Same conundrum with speakers, unless careful objective and methodical testing is undertaken. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GFuNK Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 Materials have a sound when resonating though. So not without consideration IMO. They have a sound when they are not resonating too [emoji14] .Cone breakup is when it's resonating, that's what I was referring to. Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted April 15, 2016 Volunteer Share Posted April 15, 2016 Silk tweeters sound soft Tubes sound warm Horns honk Electrostats sound light and airy Silver cable is bright Wooden speakers sound organic Metal drivers sound hard Open baffle sounds open Copper cable is warm Anyone notice a pattern? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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