mloutfie Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 I started my vinyl journey last year after years of changing DAC in digital realm I want to see what's all the rage about vinyl. I started with an full auto Dual CS455-1 which is a recent model still sell new for around $700 from overseas dealer which is the same with Thorens TD190-1. I got it for cheap less than half that so I say why not give it a try rather than buying and old unknown condition turntable. It comes with amber audio cart which is a rebadged grado black and pair with a rega phono mini. And the journey starts after fully servicing the turntable (Full service, replace belt etc), first impression is it's a good setup I definitely like it better than a similarly priced DAC ($300-400 range) but it still a step down from my main digital setup. So I started to look on how I can improve this. The obvious upgrade with the best bang I read around the forum is upgrading the cartridge so I go on buying a denon DL110 high output MC cart and was pleased with the result. I then continue on finding what I can improve and added an ecstasy prop spring isolation feet and XTM1 acrylic platter and upgraded my phono to a bruce herron DIY opamp based phono with burson supreme V5 opamp. From all my upgrade the phono upgrade has been the best improvement even a better improvement than upgrading the cartridge. But I still found them to be lacking on the bass department so I added integrating a sub to my system using mini dsp to add a bit more power to the low end. In the end of this I found my self with a decent setup that I happy with. Of course it doesn't stop there with our addiction. Since there is no more upgrade I can do on the dual, I want to see how much better I can get with a better turntable now I have a decent cartridge phono, cartridge and other accessories. I found a good candidate for upgrade recently in the classified section a fully upgraded rega p3-24 with Golden Age Delrin Platter, Blue Belter belt, Audiophile Metal Sub Platter, Rega TTPSU. I expected the turntable upgrade to be a knockout against my old setup considering it's a big jump in price. I know spending more money doesn't equals to same multiplication of quality in audio but I found myself slightly underwhelmed with the improvement. Yes there is an improvement of course, overall the rega in my setup has slightly better separation, low end details, and lower noise floor. Even though it is noticeable on an AB critical comparison overall I have to listen carefully tell the difference. I was planning to sell my old dual setup and now I'm tossing if I should keep the Dual and sell the rega to upgrade something else in my system like a new speaker. Summarizing my experience in order of the biggest improvement I found is as follow: 1. Phono stage 2. Burson supreme V5 opamp 3. Denon MC Cartridge 4. Turntable upgrade In the end my ear might just not good enough to appreciate what the new turntable gives me Or the Dual was a better turntable than what I thought to be. So there it is the beginning of my vinyl story (I will definitely keep on trying something new in the future). I am keen to hear YOUR vinyl upgrade story. Sorry for the long rant 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockpig Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 Like you I wanted to see (hear) what the fuss about vinyl was because I was not getting the sound I wanted from digital. Back in the 70's I started with vinyl but went digital in 1985. So I got a Rega P3-24 in 2012 and have not looked back. The Rega P3-24 with a Garrott Brothers P77i MM cartridge cost me $1,500AUD in early 2012 (TT $1,000, Cart $500) Immediately I got the sound I was seeking. So much more bass and relaxed (instead of harsh) midrange, I was amazed. I was very impressed with this combo which was sold, setup and recommended to me by Mervin at Northside HiFi Brisbane. Later I added the PSU mostly for the convenience of changing speeds. The upgrade that I did find that made a noticeable improvement to the highs and lows was the addition of a Pro-Ject platter puck. I really thought this puck thing would be a lot of hocus pocus but it is a real upgrade. I even blind tested it on an audio mate. Since then I have switched totally to vinyl (rarely buy digital now) and have been really enjoying music ever since. Got so hooked on vinyl again that when the opportunity to get an even better TT at the right price came up I jumped at it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 @@mloutfie What cart do you have on the Rega P3-24? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mloutfie Posted March 6, 2016 Author Share Posted March 6, 2016 At the moment I've only tried denon dl110 and nagaoka mp110. Preferring the denon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mloutfie Posted March 6, 2016 Author Share Posted March 6, 2016 One thing for sure the look of all black rega with the black delrin platter is oh so sleek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illusion Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 Like you I wanted to see (hear) what the fuss about vinyl was because I was not getting the sound I wanted from digital. Back in the 70's I started with vinyl but went digital in 1985. So I got a Rega P3-24 in 2012 and have not looked back. The Rega P3-24 with a Garrott Brothers P77i MM cartridge cost me $1,500AUD in early 2012 (TT $1,000, Cart $500) Immediately I got the sound I was seeking. So much more bass and relaxed (instead of harsh) midrange, I was amazed. I was very impressed with this combo which was sold, setup and recommended to me by Mervin at Northside HiFi Brisbane. Later I added the PSU mostly for the convenience of changing speeds. The upgrade that I did find that made a noticeable improvement to the highs and lows was the addition of a Pro-Ject platter puck. I really thought this puck thing would be a lot of hocus pocus but it is a real upgrade. I even blind tested it on an audio mate. Since then I have switched totally to vinyl (rarely buy digital now) and have been really enjoying music ever since. Got so hooked on vinyl again that when the opportunity to get an even better TT at the right price came up I jumped at it. That Garrott P77 is a very good match for the P3-24. I'm currently using a Ortofon Blue 2M but I have trialed a friends Garrott and was impressed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 The DL110 will be the limiting factor on your P-3. Don't get me wrong, it's a good cartridge, in fact very good for the money. The P-3's RB300 arm will can take just about anything. If you like the Denon sound, a DL301MkII is a big upgrade for very little money, but it is a low output cartridge so that may mean upgrading your phono preamp. Dynavector make a couple of very good high output moving coils which work perfectly on the RB300. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mloutfie Posted March 6, 2016 Author Share Posted March 6, 2016 The DL110 will be the limiting factor on your P-3. Don't get me wrong, it's a good cartridge, in fact very good for the money. The P-3's RB300 arm will can take just about anything. If you like the Denon sound, a DL301MkII is a big upgrade for very little money, but it is a low output cartridge so that may mean upgrading your phono preamp. Dynavector make a couple of very good high output moving coils which work perfectly on the RB300. Interesting comment how do you think of dl103? Making a MC headamp is on my plan so that wouldn't be a problem. Is dl110 not compatible with rb301? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 (edited) Interesting comment how do you think of dl103? Making a MC headamp is on my plan so that wouldn't be a problem. Is dl110 not compatible with rb301? The very first MC I owned was a DL-103 back in the seventies. I quickly progressed to a DL-301, a DL-303 and finally a DL-1000. My Japanese father in law has a DL-305 on his Micro Seika 777 air bearing turntable with SME3010 tonearm, a combination I like very much. The DL-103 was designed to work on the high mass tonearms of the 1960s and had a spherical stylus, both concessions to an older era. The current DL-103R still has a spherical tip and still sounds like the DL-103 I owned nearly 40 years ago. The DL-110 is in a whole different category sound wise - much better IMHO thanks to a modified elliptical stylus - yet still works well on tonearms on the heavy end of the light range. The DL-301MkII is an improvement on my old DL-301, and a big step up from the DL-110, however to extract all of the benefit requires better than an entry level tonearm. Both the DL-110 and the DL-301MkII will work very well on an RB303, (which unfortunately is a step down from its RB300 ancestor IMHO). Both cartridges outperform just about everything else under $1k with the main improvements of the DL-301MkII over the DL-110 being smoother midrange and a more natural sounding top end. The DL-110 is the killer cart for a less high performance tonearm, for example a low cost RP1 based turntable setup, and obviously works with a cheaper preamplifier. Edited March 6, 2016 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mloutfie Posted March 6, 2016 Author Share Posted March 6, 2016 (edited) Looks like I better hunt for a good deal on dl301mk2 then..... also better start planning on making MC headamp for it Edited March 6, 2016 by mloutfie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mloutfie Posted March 7, 2016 Author Share Posted March 7, 2016 @@johnmath what do you think of ortofon 2m Black I've got a chance to buy one slightly used for a similar price as a new dl301mk2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 (edited) @@mloutfie I think the DL301MkII is about 5 times better than a 2M Black. It's a no brainer. The DL110 is heaps better than a 2M Black as well. EDIT: What I thought I was listening to was a 2M Silver, not a 2M Black, which is the model above the Silver. This does not change the gist of my post. Edited March 26, 2016 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Muon Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 (edited) @@mloutfie I think the DL301MkII is about 5 times better than a 2M Black. It's a no brainer. The DL110 is heaps better than a 2M Black as well. *raises an eyebrow* Must be a personal taste thing....or a synergy thing...maybe both *shrugs*, as I wouldn't swap out my 2M bronze for a DL-110 if I were given two of them, not that they aren’t a great cart at their price point. I can't comment on the 301Mkll. Edit: typo Edited March 8, 2016 by Muon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hensa Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 *raises an eyebrow* Must be a personal taste thing....or a synergy thing...maybe both *shrugs*, as I wouldn't swap out my 2M bronze for a DL-110 if I were given two of them, not that they aren’t a great cart at their price point. I can't comment on the 301Mkll. Edit: typo I'd have to agree with this. In my system, the 2M Black (and OM40 and Bronze for that matter) absolutely hammer the DL110. The DL301MkII is significantly better than the DL110 but I'd probably take all three of the previously mentioned Ortofons ahead of it (very close between the Bronze and the OM40 though). Currently have a 2M Bronze, OM40 and 301MkII and that's just how they fare in my system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 (edited) *raises an eyebrow* Must be a personal taste thing....or a synergy thing...maybe both *shrugs*, I don't live in a vacuum - the turntables I upgrade belong to people and my comments are based on feedback from owners. There's not much point in me recommending something that doesn't please the customer. I do an average of one or two turntable upgrades per day. I've installed and listened to dozens of 2Ms (Reds, Blues, Bronzes and Blacks) on plenty of different turntables - Thorens, Pro-Ject, Systemdek, Sondek, Rega, Goldmund, Micro Seiki, plus plenty of old Japanese Pioneer, Teac, JVC, Sony, and plenty of Technics, and all sorts of cartridges, Denons, Dynavectors, Shelters, Linns, Koetsus, Clearaudios, Garrotts, etc. Edit: Whilst I have heard a 2M black, what I thought I was listening to recently was a 2M Silver, not a 2M Black, which is the model above the Silver. This does not change the gist of my post. Edited March 26, 2016 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Muon Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 @@johnmath "I don't live in a vacuum" Glad to hear it, John. I hear breathing is difficult is such Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 @@johnmath "I don't live in a vacuum" Glad to hear it, John. I hear breathing is difficult is such Ha ha - hearing is difficult too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Muon Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 Great! now we have defined that nobody lives in a vacuum, as It's not possible. The thread can continue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 (edited) I have done a couple of Bronze to DL110 upgrades, and the owners have been nothing less than ecstatic. I witnessed a shootout at a retail outlet on a fairly high end amplifier / loudspeaker system comparing a DL110 on a Rega RP1 to a Black on a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Esprit and everybody in the place laughed at the Black, the difference was so great in favour of the Denon. YMMV. Edited March 8, 2016 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Muon Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 Well if other aspects are a limiting factor, this could have been the case. Meh.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackangus Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 (edited) @@mloutfie I think the DL301MkII is about 5 times better than a 2M Black. It's a no brainer. The DL110 is heaps better than a 2M Black as well.In fact, I had a 2M black at one stage on the very turntable in question, although that was before Duc's platter. That cartridge made way for a denon 103r, but I also have and very, very much enjoy a 301 mk II on a Rega arm on my TD 160, so yes another vote for the 301 mk IIEdit : in my system, YMMV, IMHO, from my experience, salt according to taste and any number of other qualifying statements Edited March 8, 2016 by blackangus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Muon Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 We don't listen to just the cart! We listen to the system as a whole, and if a lower end cart works better in a given system, then use that cart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOPSHELF Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 Funny how we hear things, i went from a dl110 to a bronze and the Ortofon won hands down i then changed the rega for a well temperedclassic and got the word to put a stanton 881s on this rather than the 2M black. The sound i am now getting on this set up after 10 hours of run in time is nothing short of stunning. The stanton was 1/3rd of the cost of the black. It tracks very low and will show up any failings in your vinyl but the sound omg! It makes me smile every time...... bring on the 25 hour burn in on the cart as i am only 8 hours in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Muon Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 (edited) @@TOPSHELF Synergy? do you think? and of course personal preference is also a big factor in choosing a cart. Edit: ah, I see now that you must have moved from the Bronze/Black to the Stanton on the well tempered Those Stantons do have a following. Edited March 8, 2016 by Muon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mloutfie Posted March 8, 2016 Author Share Posted March 8, 2016 oh no what have I started Anyway I will do home audition on the weekend of the ortofon black so I can do a proper comparison to the dl110 to see if I do like it or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts