Different Directions. Halogens are hot on the front, LED's are hot on the back.

 

The LED's on that gets to 65°C in a 25° room. Without that heatsink the LED's would be cooking (until they suddenly stopped working).

 

i find this curious though, surely its related to wattage…. ?

 

a 5w LED…thats consuming 5w yeah …it really needs heat sinking ? can't be too efficient ? and how much power is it actually chewing up ? can't be 5 w !

 

I can under the large clusters packed close together….

 

Rule of thumb @@betty boop

If you can see a bulb it's replaceable

If you see a permanent glass cover then the whole unit is replaced

About 2 years ago I had 12 down lights replaced when we did the kitchen with Atom brand

They sell both types I mentioned above but the electrician fitted the replaceable bulb type

But I wish they went with the permanent seal units as I have had several bulbs blow on me , and replaced under warrantee

 

will look again

 

I just wish there were some sort of standards with these things !

i find this curious though, surely its related to wattage…. ?

 

a 5w LED…thats consuming 5w yeah …it really needs heat sinking ? can't be too efficient ? and how much power is it actually chewing up ? can't be 5 w !

 

I can under the large clusters packed close together….

 

 

will look again

 

I just wish there were some sort of standards with these things !

Too many different things to select from and all that has to happen is that it changes the product line and that's it, or the company manufacturing them goes broke.....so in cases like this make sure you get a few spares.

seriously I now pity people in the current climate of door to door salesman coming through and getting people converted over from halogen to LEDs…if LEDs being put in are cheap sh!te…that in one to two years will need replacement…and by that I mean wholesale replacement….with the fly by night companies be around that are doing these conversions….am thinking the solar and ceiling insulation shonks….that all dissapered once the funding did the same.

 

iPart and VEET had schemes that were astronomically dodgy. You could sell off energy certificates you generates by swapping old lights with new energy efficient lights.... except originally they didn't have any restrictions on what those energy efficient lights were... So some enterprising individuals decided to import a heap of the cheapest light fittings imaginable, install them for free and claim the certificates.

They have tightened it up a heap now, but there is a few places around with some interesting lighting installations.

 

i find this curious though, surely its related to wattage…. ?

 

a 5w LED…thats consuming 5w yeah …it really needs heat sinking ? can't be too efficient ? and how much power is it actually chewing up ? can't be 5 w !

 

I can under the large clusters packed close together….

 

 

will look again

 

I just wish there were some sort of standards with these things !

 

Yep, its wattage related.

5W definitely needs heatsinking, not as much as 60W does but it still needs something so the LED doesn't kick the bucket.

The problem is, the cheaper LED's don't produce much light - lets call it 100lumens per watt (being generous).

 

5W of LED = 500 lumens.

a 50W Halogen has around 900 lumens.

 

So you'd need at LEAST 9W to match the output of a halogen (+ 10% ish for driver losses)

 

with 9W of LED you just can't package enough heatsinking into the shape of a 'bulb' or globe.

 

That means you get anything from a severely underpowered light to a light running too hot (reducing its lifespan dramatically).

 

Remove the whole light from the ceiling, it will be held by 2 spring clips. Just get your fingers under the trim and pull down evenly.

 

Once its out - measure the hole size

How many audiophiles does it take to change a light bulb?

Eleven, one to change the bulb, five to declare that the new bulb has made a night and day difference, five to declare the new bulb to be snake oil and that there is no difference at all

Too many different things to select from and all that has to happen is that it changes the product line and that's it, or the company manufacturing them goes broke.....so in cases like this make sure you get a few spares.

 

One of the biggest problems people don't seem to pickup on is that many of those Globes have poor binning (batch control).

 

So first globe has 3 x 1W LED's at 100lumens per watt and 3000K colour temperature

2 months later the globe has 3 x 1W LED's at 110lumens per watt and 2800K colour temperature.

Light 3 has 3 x 1W LED's at 90 lumens per watt and 3200K colour temperature.

 

3 light fittings, all visibly different in colour and brightness.

 

Honestly, best way to do it is replace it with a good quality one-piece unit

Or as this thread has proven

How many audiophiles to change a light bulb?

Ten, one to change the bulb, nine others to argue about the merits of the different types of bulbs and declare anyone who doesn't agree an idiot

Edited January 19, 201610 yr by caddisgeek

How many audiophiles does it take to change a light bulb?

Eleven, one to change the bulb, five to declare that the new bulb has made a night and day difference, five to declare the new bulb to be snake oil and that there is no difference at all

Don't forget the double blind test...

Don't forget the double blind test...

Is that where you bring in @@djb and one of his mates?

Don't forget the double blind test...

 

Participants in the double blind test could see no visual differences between LED's and the blank ceiling.

Participants in the double blind test could see no visual differences between LED's and the blank ceiling.

 

they all now trust their ears

@@betty boop

Yep, halogens are time bombs. All my LEDs I can touch and emit no heat.

http://www.fire.nsw.gov.au/page.php?id=709

@@betty boop

Yep, halogens are time bombs. All my LEDs I can touch and emit no heat.

http://www.fire.nsw.gov.au/page.php?id=709

 

You can touch the face of an LED fitting because all the heat goes out the back, not on the face like a halogen.

 

You still have to be careful with insulation etc with LED's. But typically they are ~20° cooler than a halogen.

Interesting thread.

When people come knocking on my door wanting to give me free stuff I normally send them away.

After all they get to flog off the carbon credits I have signed over to them and I get a house full of the cheapest and crappiest light fittings that it it is possible to source

Good value?

Interesting thread.

When people come knocking on my door wanting to give me free stuff I normally send them away.

After all they get to flog off the carbon credits I have signed over to them and I get a house full of the cheapest and crappiest light fittings that it it is possible to source

Good value?

 

yes is it free if it goes poop in the warranty (and there is no recourse i.e. company gone bust/dissapeared) or out of warranty...and then have to replace the entire lot ...whcih if you look at what some people are posting is getting up in the 1000s !!!!

 

we did the change over from incandescent to the low energy flouro light bulbs....that was easy enough. didnt cost us nothing...and our power bill did go down subsequently. and if any of those go poop it is easily replaced (though they do cost significantly more e.g. $8 vs 80c of the originals)

 

but LEDs are something else I think. we're talking in order of $20 for replaceable LEDS to $50 per fitting. so something to consider. we are told here house hold names we know philips and osram  are sh!te and grenades that will go poop if you give them the wrong look .... hehe

 

and here I am a professional engineer thats done multi million dollar very complex technical upgrades in multi disciplines and projects over 20 odd years in all sorts of industries asking how to change a light bulb !!!!  

yes is it free if it goes poop in the warranty (and there is no recourse i.e. company gone bust/dissapeared) or out of warranty...and then have to replace the entire lot ...whcih if you look at what some people are posting is getting up in the 1000s !!!!

 

we did the change over from incandescent to the low energy flouro light bulbs....that was easy enough. didnt cost us nothing...and our power bill did go down subsequently. and if any of those go poop it is easily replaced (though they do cost significantly more e.g. $8 vs 80c of the originals)

 

but LEDs are something else I think. we're talking in order of $20 for replaceable LEDS to $50 per fitting. so something to consider. we are told here house hold names we know philips and osram  are sh!te and grenades that will go poop if you give them the wrong look .... hehe

 

and here I am a professional engineer thats done multi million dollar very complex technical upgrades in multi disciplines and projects over 20 odd years in all sorts of industries asking how to change a light bulb !!!!

Hey Al, I have some reliable fittings, nice color at 10w for $37, 5 yrs warranty, plug in

Edited January 19, 201610 yr by Guest

Hey Al, I have some reliable fittings, nice color at 10w for $37, 5 yrs warranty, plug in

 

good to know matt. with our renovations we only fitted two of the things...but in coming years we have another 5 rooms atleast will need LED downlight as we go through in renovations. they re appropriate in rooms like bathrooms, kitchen, laundry and such where their flush nature against the ceiling makes easier to keep clean rather than a large light fitting that gets a bit yucky. think wife likes the clean look of LED down lights to.

 

definitely been an eye opener for sure this thread.

 

as a side note.....in industrial applications I've converted entire areas to inductance lighting instead of LED as in those application we found no LEDs that were reliable enough.... industrial and warehouse applications and their environments are quite different though. inductance lighting we found used as little energy as LED and we got a genuine 25 year warranty from reputable supplier wiht those.... in those installations your talking upwards of $1200 a lamp though and significant cost to install and replace.

 

would have thought domestic installation simple enough. you'd think there'd be leds can just buy in confidence with warranties to match their claims too much in this thread that says otherwise. wish their was a way of knowing what out there was reliable and decent quality worth the money and what isn't.

good to know matt. with our renovations we only fitted two of the things...but in coming years we have another 5 rooms atleast will need LED downlight as we go through in renovations. they re appropriate in rooms like bathrooms, kitchen, laundry and such where their flush nature against the ceiling makes easier to keep clean rather than a large light fitting that gets a bit yucky. think wife likes the clean look of LED down lights to.

 

definitely been an eye opener for sure this thread.

 

as a side note.....in industrial applications I've converted entire areas to inductance lighting instead of LED as in those application we found no LEDs that were reliable enough.... industrial and warehouse applications and their environments are quite different though. inductance lighting we found used as little energy as LED and we got a genuine 25 year warranty from reputable supplier wiht those.... in those installations your talking upwards of $1200 a lamp though and significant cost to install and replace.

 

would have thought domestic installation simple enough. you'd think there'd be leds can just buy in confidence with warranties to match their claims too much in this thread that says otherwise. wish their was a way of knowing what out there was reliable and decent quality worth the money and what isn't.

Hey yea Al, quality is everything, so is confidence in a purchase

That old cave of a shop has been operating for 32 years and sells good honest stuff, with proven, renewable, efficiency bend of gear including lights.

Sorry I'm still in Retail mode.   .Should put a record on

@@betty boop,

I would label Philips lighting as Sh!t....

Over the period of my life this brand of lighting last the longest compared to all the brands I've tried. I've also tried some of the brands that are sold in professional lighting stores with all sorts of claims and the Philips are the ones that I still regard as long lasting.

When compact fluoro came out I purchase 3 of the them at $30 each in a Macwans hardware store in the city that is now know as Bunnings. They originally weren't made in China but in Holland, I still have 2 here that still work! 30yrs later! OK they are a bit grey at the end but they still work! The one that's not here was damaged due to the move!

I run 2 circuits so there's 2 banks of switches, one for downlights and the other for normal battens...The battens I have all Philips LEDs 13W and haven't replaced any of these especially in the kitchen and the living areas. In my daughter's bedroom they get let on the minute she arrives home, and they haven't been replaced.....yet!

With the government scheme, we were approached by a friend who's an electrician trying for work. I wouldn't let willy nelly people in the house changing ligh globes because I don't trust strangers. For me to change to these $60 LED times 32 is $1920 silly money spent especially when you don't use that circuit. Regardless of whether these cheap nasty LEDs are Sh!t I got them for free, if anything I can rolled up to Bunnings and get a replacement at next to nothing! I definitely am not a believer on well designed LEDs claims, even with decent heatsink or driver, either way if they go, the whole lot needs to be replaced, you're not going to just replace the driver!

Or as this thread has proven

How many audiophiles to change a light bulb?

Ten, one to change the bulb, nine others to argue about the merits of the different types of bulbs and declare anyone who doesn't agree an idiot

Wire makes the biggest difference.

Enjoy your journey!

@@betty boop,

Philips are the ones that I still regard as long lasting.

 

 

They just had a recall of 100,000 globes due to an electrical hazard.

The year before they had 35,000 GU10 8W globes recalled due to earth leakage.

This is on top of the horrific failure rate of the fan cooled MR16 LED they had. 

 

Philips replacement globes didn't even use their own Philips branded LED's until late last year. They were purchasing SMD LED's from another company.... the little driver in their MR16 globe was the only 'philips' part of the whole package...

 

A well made stand-alone unit with a flex & plug is infinitely better than a replacement globe. The argument that you have to replace the whole unit when it fails is like saying "lets just use wireless speakers so that when they fail we don't have to unplug them".

 

It cost me $150 (per room) to supply the lighting for each bedroom in my house, cheap investment if you ask me.

Edited January 19, 201610 yr by amkr

They just had a recall of 100,000 globes due to an electrical hazard.

The year before they had 35,000 GU10 8W globes recalled due to earth leakage.

This is on top of the horrific failure rate of the fan cooled MR16 LED they had. 

 

Philips replacement globes didn't even use their own Philips branded LED's until late last year. They were purchasing SMD LED's from another company.... the little driver in their MR16 globe was the only 'philips' part of the whole package...

 

A well made stand-alone unit with a flex & plug is infinitely better than a replacement globe. The argument that you have to replace the whole unit when it fails is like saying "lets just use wireless speakers so that when they fail we don't have to unplug them".

 

It cost me $150 (per room) to supply the lighting for each bedroom in my house, cheap investment if you ask me.

It's not unusual for companies to recall there products, it's a commercial environment, somewhere along the line no matter how perfect a product is, I find that it fails and FWIW it's my job to go out there and correct some of the BS designs that actually passed all QA testings. I've heard it all before, motor X is a DC brushless motor and will guarantee to live the life of that product; Rubbish when you have to replaced them in the morning and then in the afternoon! We live in a disposable society and nothing commercially is designed or leaves the production line to last pass your use by date!

However I don't have Phillips MR16 in the house so it doesn't concern me, and it's good for a company to pull the plug for safety and recall X quantity, better to do this then get sued over a real issue and you are trying to hide it, I rest my case with companies such as VW. Why would anyone purchase from such a deceptive organisation that's done it more than once.

It's not unusual for companies to recall there products, it's a commercial environment, somewhere along the line no matter how perfect a product is, I find that it fails and FWIW it's my job to go out there and correct some of the BS designs that actually passed all QA testings. I've heard it all before, motor X is a DC brushless motor and will guarantee to live the life of that product; Rubbish when you have to replaced them in the morning and then in the afternoon! We live in a disposable society and nothing commercially is designed or leaves the production line to last pass your use by date!

However I don't have Phillips MR16 in the house so it doesn't concern me, and it's good for a company to pull the plug for safety and recall X quantity, better to do this then get sued over a real issue and you are trying to hide it, I rest my case with companies such as VW. Why would anyone purchase from such a deceptive organisation that's done it more than once.

Disagree (a bit). You don't have to live in a disposable way. There are products, companies and people who do not have this ethos. But you are right, in that many more do. If your cheap MP3 player only lasted its 12 months, you'd probably say $20 well spent. But if your $3000 Benchmark or $20000 Cary went poof! after 12 months, you'd be crying foul straight away (and not only on here). It's all a matter of perceptions and requirements. In many cases, I buy things to last, I expect it, and I get my 'pound of flesh' if they do not. Mrs CE does not always see that it's useful to pay more initially for a product that will end up being better value (leather for couches, good sheets, etc), but she's coming around (I chose her for the same reasons...  )

But horses are for courses. We don't expect to be in this house for more than 10 years, so we took the middle option, with the largest of these operators (LEDified) and we were happy with the expertise of the installers. Considering what they had to work with - the original halogens had been installed in the subfloor with no thought to any sort of future replacement, even though the house was only built 18 years ago. No problems so far...

Yes, 'you get what you pay for' usually runs true.

It's up there with 'careful what you wish for' and 'for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction'.

Disagree (a bit). You don't have to live in a disposable way. There are products, companies and people who do not have this ethos. But you are right, in that many more do. If your cheap MP3 player only lasted its 12 months, you'd probably say $20 well spent. But if your $3000 Benchmark or $20000 Cary went poof! after 12 months, you'd be crying foul straight away (and not only on here). It's all a matter of perceptions and requirements. In many cases, I buy things to last, I expect it, and I get my 'pound of flesh' if they do not. Mrs CE does not always see that it's useful to pay more initially for a product that will end up being better value (leather for couches, good sheets, etc), but she's coming around (I chose her for the same reasons...  )

But horses are for courses. We don't expect to be in this house for more than 10 years, so we took the middle option, with the largest of these operators (LEDified) and we were happy with the expertise of the installers. Considering what they had to work with - the original halogens had been installed in the subfloor with no thought to any sort of future replacement, even though the house was only built 18 years ago. No problems so far...

Most organisations have good intentions and designed products that last, or at least try to. My point is I will buy from companies that will pull the plug and recall a bad batch that doesn't comply for whatever reason. It's not an easy decision to to do a recall as it will push you into the red. At least they have publicly advised and withdrawn the item and in many cases refund or replaced, I will give companies that do do this my hard earn cash. You also have to remember there's a lot of products out there that's failed and hasn't been recalled regardless of seriousness of the issue, some are fire hazards or can inflict injury, some are well known by consumer affairs and some violate Air Safety, it's these companies that won't admit to issues and are arrogant in resolving an issue is where my hard earn cash won't be going.

It's a pretty easy decision to make when you've been busted selling a faulty product and the authorities have told them to pull it from the shelves. This wasn't some honourable recall, it was recalled because it was going to cause serious injury if they didn't. They didn't really have a choice.

They didn't recall the clearly problematic 9W globes, despite a horrific failure rate and an obvious design flaw.