Fezz Audio Mira Ceti 300B

[xlr8or]

Okay Thomas. Let's assume your signal is fixed gain (non-adjustable) coming from the Linn. The signal needs to be amplified in the Fezz to your desired listening level. You'll be utilising the full circuitry and input and driver stage and power amplification stage of the Fezz to do this. The volume control on the Fezz allows you to adjust the output level to your liking. The challenge here is that you need to match the fixed gain setting on the Linn to match the input sensitivity level on the Fezz to have the availability of the full volume control range.

 

If the Linn is set on variable gain and the volume control is used as an active control to vary the amount of gain going into the Fezz, the Fezz would benefit greatly to have access to its full volume range and input sensitivity. What you don't want to do is restrict the range of volume to distort and clip the signal easily. The challenge here is that if the Fezz has a low input sensitivity (let's take the R8 here as a classic example) the gain will over saturate very easily. The maximum volume setting on the Fezz will maximise the range available for gain to come in before it distorts and clips for too high incoming gain. You back off the gain on the Linn to accommodate accordingly.

[Saltycoogee]

4 hours ago, ThoFi said:

Hi Gregory,

congrats that you bought the Mira Ceti and that you like it!

I think it’s hard to give advices for tube rolling and it depends on personal taste and your other hifi components.

With my set up and the EH6SN7 the sound is a little to clean with a little lack of warmth. Do you have the same experiences?

As I shared I am still looking for different 6SN7s.

 

I set the volume at 12‘ (~50%) and do the volume control with my Linn. The Linn is connected via line in.
Gregory, you use a pre amp connected to line in?

 

@xlr8or Kirk, you recommend 100%? Why?

Thanx!

 

@douxreveur131 Jean Louis, what is your volume setting and source?

thanx

I agree with you Thomas. The sound is a little too clean for me so what I did is connect my 6ohm Monitor Audio speakers into the 4ohm tap instead of the 8ohm taps. This softens the high end detail, increases the mids and mid bass and generally thickens the sound. I would like to find some 6SN7 tubes that would create more of a "liquid" warm sound and add some air. I use a WIIM streamer going into a solid state Moon HAD230 headphone amp/preamp/dac combo. I have the Fezz at 75%, the preamp at 33% and control the streamer volume via the iPhone app. I'm curious though to try the Fezz at 100% to see if it will add more tube sound . . . I'm also cautious about tube wear by leaving the Fez at 100%. . . 

[muon*]

45 minutes ago, Saltycoogee said:

I agree with you Thomas. The sound is a little too clean for me so what I did is connect my 6ohm Monitor Audio speakers into the 4ohm tap instead of the 8ohm taps. This softens the high end detail, increases the mids and mid bass and generally thickens the sound. I would like to find some 6SN7 tubes that would create more of a "liquid" warm sound and add some air. I use a WIIM streamer going into a solid state Moon HAD230 headphone amp/preamp/dac combo. I have the Fezz at 75%, the preamp at 33% and control the streamer volume via the iPhone app. I'm curious though to try the Fezz at 100% to see if it will add more tube sound . . . I'm also cautious about tube wear by leaving the Fez at 100%. . . 

If the FEZZ is at 100% volume but fed from an attenuated signal (pre amp or volume controlled source) it makes no difference to the tube life, and it will not have any more 'tube sound' as a result..

All you are doing is attenuating the signal earlier in the chain, that's all.

 

BUT I still say the FEZZ should not be fed an active level of amplification such as would come from an active pre, as it wants to see a line level at It's 3 RCA inputs. This is for the early FEZZ with no pre inputs. It's gain structure and more so input sensitivity will not suit an active pre amplification.

 

If it is the later FEZZ with pre inputs then it can be used via It's pre inputs by an active volume controlled source or active pre amplifier as when using the pre inputs the FEZZ;s volume control will be bypassed and It's sensitivity will be like that of a power amp.

Edited April 6 by muon*

[Saltycoogee]

2 hours ago, ThoFi said:

your Fezz has preamp in?

or you really hooked your amp to an RCA input of the Fezz?

in this case your preamp must have any kind of attenuator 

I have the legacy model without any preamp inputs. . .

[Saltycoogee]

25 minutes ago, muon* said:

If the FEZZ is at 100% volume but fed from an attenuated signal (pre amp or volume controlled source) it makes no difference to the tube life, and it will not have any more 'tube sound' as a result..

All you are doing is attenuating the signal earlier in the chain, that's all.

 

BUT I still say the FEZZ should not be fed an active level of amplification such as would come from an active pre, as it wants to see a line level at It's 3 RCA inputs. This is for the early FEZZ with no pre inputs. It's gain structure and more so input sensitivity will not suit an active pre amplification.

 

If it is the later FEZZ with pre inputs then it can be used via It's pre inputs by an active volume controlled source or active pre amplifier as when using the pre inputs the FEZZ;s volume control will be bypassed and It's sensitivity will be like that of a power amp.

Thanks for this detailed explanation. It's much appreciated! My preamp/dac does have a fixed output option when using the device as a DAC. I'll give this a try. Also, my streamer has a fixed output option but if I use this I would need to control the volume from the Fezz which isn't as convenient compared to controlling the streamer output from the app.  . .

 

[muon*]

What I find annoying about FEZZ, is that neither in the tech description nor the user manual do they mention things like input sensitivities and input impedances.

 

https://fezzaudio.com/en/produkt/fezz-mira-ceti-300b-evolution/

Edited April 6 by muon*

[ThoFi]

42 minutes ago, Saltycoogee said:

Thanks for this detailed explanation. It's much appreciated! My preamp/dac does have a fixed output option when using the device as a DAC. I'll give this a try. Also, my streamer has a fixed output option but if I use this I would need to control the volume from the Fezz which isn't as convenient compared to controlling the streamer output from the app.  . .

 

what volume setting do you have on your preamp/dac when using it as a preamp connected to RCA at the Fezz?

[Saltycoogee]

4 hours ago, ThoFi said:

what volume setting do you have on your preamp/dac when using it as a preamp connected to RCA at the Fezz?

35%. I tried the fixed output but the signal was much louder and I found the tonality wasn't as desirable since the solid state preamp was now more dominant. I went back to 75%+ on the Fezz and 35% on the preamp. I'm happy with that., it works well with my setup.

[xlr8or]

6 hours ago, Saltycoogee said:

Thanks for this detailed explanation. It's much appreciated! My preamp/dac does have a fixed output option when using the device as a DAC. I'll give this a try. Also, my streamer has a fixed output option but if I use this I would need to control the volume from the Fezz which isn't as convenient compared to controlling the streamer output from the app.  . .

 

 

Have you tried bypassing the preamp/DAC entirely and controlling the volume control directly from the streamer?

[Saltycoogee]

1 hour ago, xlr8or said:

 

Have you tried bypassing the preamp/DAC entirely and controlling the volume control directly from the streamer?

I don't use the DAC in the streamer. I go optical out from the streamer to the preamp/DAC because it's a much better device. 

[ThoFi]

Strange to me that a preamp works on a line level input

[Saltycoogee]

On 7/4/2024 at 4:09 AM, ThoFi said:

Strange to me that a preamp works on a line level input

The Moon 230HAD is actually a headphone amp/dac/preamp that has fixed and variable analog outputs. Since you all have so well guided me to the Mira Ceti 300B, I'm now thinking of changing my speakers. I currently use Monitor Audio RS6 towers with a Rel T/7x sub. The sound is very pleasant but I'm still curious to know what a speaker upgrade could bring to the sound. What do you gents recommend?

[douxreveur131]

10 hours ago, Saltycoogee said:

The Moon 230HAD is actually a headphone amp/dac/preamp that has fixed and variable analog outputs. Since you all have so well guided me to the Mira Ceti 300B, I'm now thinking of changing my speakers. I currently use Monitor Audio RS6 towers with a Rel T/7x sub. The sound is very pleasant but I'm still curious to know what a speaker upgrade could bring to the sound. What do you gents recommend?

 

Hello. 

 

Choosing a pair of loudspeakers is an extremely difficult exercise, as the criteria for choice are immense in terms of budget, extremely varied across the different makes and models, and the sound results can be extremely different from one model to another. 

 

Of course, each of us can think of his or her own speakers, but they meet our needs, expectations and listening criteria. 

I can, however, suggest that you think carefully about the listening results you want to achieve before looking for the speakers that will best achieve them. Try to define the three sound criteria that are most important to you. Then prioritize them, rather than going from speaker to speaker, without really knowing what to look for. 

 

For example, for me, the three criteria are as follows :

 

- 1) reproduction of the human voice, which must be as plausible as possible, human and warm, embodied and carnal but without excess, as devoid as possible of coldness, harshness or aggressiveness, without accentuating sibilance, and as emotionally moving as possible. 

 

- 2) The second criterion focuses on timbre, especially in the treble. Above all, the overall balance must not be too high. Again, the sound must be free of aggressiveness and harshness, but rich in harmonics, full-bodied and without causing auditory fatigue. 

 

- 3) The third criterion is the width of the sound image, but above all, its depth, which must offer a sound panorama at the very back of the room, others in between, and still others very close to us.  

 

Finally, you need to take into account the size of the room, whether you like to listen very loudly or at an intermediate or modest level, and above all, the musical style you listen to most. Of course, the loudspeakers you choose must be the best possible match for your FEZZ Audio Amplifier, and offer the right level of performance.

 

I'd just like to point out that my TOTEM Sttaf speakers, bought second-hand, have now been replaced by Totem Bison Towers. But alas, the Canadian brand has become extremely expensive in Europe, costing almost 3300 euros a pair. But as you're in Montreal, if they fit your budget, they're definitely worth discovering, at least for a listen.

These are small columns with a very average output of 88 Db. But my living room is quite modest in size, and I listen at an average sound level. They give me an astonishing musical quality for their size, and they meet all the criteria mentioned above, in the context of my listening style, which tends to focus on classical music, baroque, vocal jazz, but also sometimes more contemporary music, most often based on the human voice. 

 

I really advise you to take your time to think about all this, and if possible, of course, to do some listening in real life. 

 

Enjoy your research !

 

 

 

Edited April 10 by douxreveur131

[Saltycoogee]

5 hours ago, douxreveur131 said:

 

Hello. 

 

Choosing a pair of loudspeakers is an extremely difficult exercise, as the criteria for choice are immense in terms of budget, extremely varied across the different makes and models, and the sound results can be extremely different from one model to another. 

 

Of course, each of us can think of his or her own speakers, but they meet our needs, expectations and listening criteria. 

I can, however, suggest that you think carefully about the listening results you want to achieve before looking for the speakers that will best achieve them. Try to define the three sound criteria that are most important to you. Then prioritize them, rather than going from speaker to speaker, without really knowing what to look for. 

 

For example, for me, the three criteria are as follows :

 

- 1) reproduction of the human voice, which must be as plausible as possible, human and warm, embodied and carnal but without excess, as devoid as possible of coldness, harshness or aggressiveness, without accentuating sibilance, and as emotionally moving as possible. 

 

- 2) The second criterion focuses on timbre, especially in the treble. Above all, the overall balance must not be too high. Again, the sound must be free of aggressiveness and harshness, but rich in harmonics, full-bodied and without causing auditory fatigue. 

 

- 3) The third criterion is the width of the sound image, but above all, its depth, which must offer a sound panorama at the very back of the room, others in between, and still others very close to us.  

 

Finally, you need to take into account the size of the room, whether you like to listen very loudly or at an intermediate or modest level, and above all, the musical style you listen to most. Of course, the loudspeakers you choose must be the best possible match for your FEZZ Audio Amplifier, and offer the right level of performance.

 

I'd just like to point out that my TOTEM Sttaf speakers, bought second-hand, have now been replaced by Totem Bison Towers. But alas, the Canadian brand has become extremely expensive in Europe, costing almost 3300 euros a pair. But as you're in Montreal, if they fit your budget, they're definitely worth discovering, at least for a listen.

These are small columns with a very average output of 88 Db. But my living room is quite modest in size, and I listen at an average sound level. They give me an astonishing musical quality for their size, and they meet all the criteria mentioned above, in the context of my listening style, which tends to focus on classical music, baroque, vocal jazz, but also sometimes more contemporary music, most often based on the human voice. 

 

I really advise you to take your time to think about all this, and if possible, of course, to do some listening in real life. 

 

Enjoy your research !

 

 

 

Thank you for all this information! I like my Monitor Audio RS6 towers and feel that if I'm going to upgrade I have to try something different like Harbeth, Spendor or Linton speakers. I am wondering though if the sensitivity on these are too low for my 8w Fezz. . .I'll start visiting the local stores and then listen and learn.

[ThoFi]

Good information from Jean Louis!

I own Harbeth speakers and with Fezz they cover criteria 1 and 2.

 

With criteria 3 I always struggle and it don’t know for sure what’s the issue. Most influence could make the room and speaker placement. And maybe a neutral speaker is not able to deliver criteria no3 ?

 

All in all I like my Harbeth Fezz combination but yes a more powerful amp delivers more attack, control and dynamic. 
My Harbeth SHL5+ 40th An only has 86dB sensitivity and 6Ohm but never lower than 5Ohms.

Edited April 10 by ThoFi

[Saltycoogee]

36 minutes ago, ThoFi said:

Good information from Jean Louis!

I own Harbeth speakers and with Fezz they cover criteria 1 and 2.

 

With criteria 3 I always struggle and it don’t know for sure what’s the issue. Most influence could make the room and speaker placement. And maybe a neutral speaker is not able to deliver criteria no3 ?

 

All in all I like my Harbeth Fezz combination but yes a more powerful amp delivers more attack, control and dynamic. 
My Harbeth SHL5+ 40th An only has 86dB sensitivity and 6Ohm but never lower than 5Ohms.

It's good to know that the Fezz can handle the Harbeths. What are your thoughts on the Harbeth M30 and C7 speakers? Are you familiar with these models as well?

[ThoFi]

35 minutes ago, Saltycoogee said:

It's good to know that the Fezz can handle the Harbeths. What are your thoughts on the Harbeth M30 and C7 speakers? Are you familiar with these models as well?

I never owned or auditioned the M30s but before the SHL5s I owned the C7ES-3. They are beautiful warm sounding speakers as all the older Harbeth models. (I also own the P3ESR SE). 
The Harbeth sound changed to more neutral, dynamic and detailed sound = modern sound?(different inner damping and crossover board).

Speaker specs are very similar.

[Saltycoogee]

On 10/4/2024 at 11:30 AM, ThoFi said:

Good information from Jean Louis!

I own Harbeth speakers and with Fezz they cover criteria 1 and 2.

 

With criteria 3 I always struggle and it don’t know for sure what’s the issue. Most influence could make the room and speaker placement. And maybe a neutral speaker is not able to deliver criteria no3 ?

 

All in all I like my Harbeth Fezz combination but yes a more powerful amp delivers more attack, control and dynamic. 
My Harbeth SHL5+ 40th An only has 86dB sensitivity and 6Ohm but never lower than 5Ohms.

Thanks for the information Thomas! It's much appreciated. I'm planning to audition some Harbeths next week. I wanted to ask your advice on tubes for the Mira Ceti. I'm finding the sound a bit bright. I have the stock 6SN7 Tubes and Sophia Electric Carbon Plate for the 300Bs. I moved my speakers to the 4 ohm taps which helped quite a bit but I'm wondering if I should roll some tubes to see if I can get a more lush and less bright sound. Would you have any suggestions? Thx again. BTW, the amp came with the Sophias so I haven't heard the original EHG tubes.

 

[ThoFi]

17 minutes ago, Saltycoogee said:

Thanks for the information Thomas! It's much appreciated. I'm planning to audition some Harbeths next week. I wanted to ask your advice on tubes for the Mira Ceti. I'm finding the sound a bit bright. I have the stock 6SN7 Tubes and Sophia Electric Carbon Plate for the 300Bs. I moved my speakers to the 4 ohm taps which helped quite a bit but I'm wondering if I should roll some tubes to see if I can get a more lush and less bright sound. Would you have any suggestions? Thx again. BTW, the amp came with the Sophias so I haven't heard the original EHG tubes.

 

The biggest influence on the sound do of course have the speakers. If you’re looking for a warmer sound I highly recommend the Harbeth C7ES-3 (not the XD or 40An).

Regarding tubes I am not that experienced. As far as I know the 6SN7s has the bigger influence on SQ.

I have the new production EH, Tung Sol and TAD.

For me the Tung Sols are less „aggressiv „ than the EH.

The TAD are leaner but not bright sounding and maybe not for your taste.

Many do recommend NOS Sylvania. I never heard them and good ones at a good price are not easy to find.

(Beside the 6SN7s I use some 12AU7+adpater. But thats maybe a different story…)

 

If you are looking for new speaker than put your money on the speakers and start tube rolling afterwards.

 

Looking forward to your thoughts about the Harbeth. What Harbeth will you be able to listen to?

 

[douxreveur131]

On 4/10/2024 at 5:30 PM, ThoFi said:

Good information from Jean Louis!

I own Harbeth speakers and with Fezz they cover criteria 1 and 2.

 

With criteria 3 I always struggle and it don’t know for sure what’s the issue. Most influence could make the room and speaker placement. And maybe a neutral speaker is not able to deliver criteria no3 ?

 

All in all I like my Harbeth Fezz combination but yes a more powerful amp delivers more attack, control and dynamic. 
My Harbeth SHL5+ 40th An only has 86dB sensitivity and 6Ohm but never lower than 5Ohms.

 

Hello Thomas and all of you. 

 

I don't have the pleasure of knowing your Harbeth loudspeakers. What I can say, however, is that they have an immense "Côte d'Amour" in France. In their category, they're considered an essential reference. 

 

As a result, it's surprising not to have a vast, deep sound image. As far as streaming is concerned, it's undoubtedly the DAC that you should turn to. Few of them really know how to offer a deep image. I'll mention Musical Paradise, Denafrips and Gustard R26, for those I know best. 

 

As for vinyl playback, I really don't know, as this is a field I left a long time ago. 

 

Finally, let's come back to the choice of 6SN7 tubes. I'd like to point out that the Linlai sound amazingly transparent, but they're not that warm. 

 

That's why they're great in the DAC, and there's a balance with much softer, warmer 6SN7s in the amplifier. If I can't find a pair of 6SN7 PSVANE 6SN7 black Treasure, I might be interested in the PSVANE 6SN7 Classic Serie. After all, the new FEZZs now come with these tubes as standard. Another solution would be to install the Linlai in the amplifier and choose very warm tubes in the dAC. But I find this inversion less logical. 

I wish Saltycoogee every success in his musical and audiophile quest !

 

Edited April 12 by douxreveur131

[Saltycoogee]

51 minutes ago, ThoFi said:

The biggest influence on the sound do of course have the speakers. If you’re looking for a warmer sound I highly recommend the Harbeth C7ES-3 (not the XD or 40An).

Regarding tubes I am not that experienced. As far as I know the 6SN7s has the bigger influence on SQ.

I have the new production EH, Tung Sol and TAD.

For me the Tung Sols are less „aggressiv „ than the EH.

The TAD are leaner but not bright sounding and maybe not for your taste.

Many do recommend NOS Sylvania. I never heard them and good ones at a good price are not easy to find.

(Beside the 6SN7s I use some 12AU7+adpater. But thats maybe a different story…)

 

If you are looking for new speaker than put your money on the speakers and start tube rolling afterwards.

 

Looking forward to your thoughts about the Harbeth. What Harbeth will you be able to listen to?

 

I'm hoping to audition the M30.2 XD, C7ES-3 XD and the SHL5plus XD. I'm thinking about rolling tubes before getting new speakers because when I had the Willsenton R300 I was very happy with the tonality in my setup. I find the Fezz with the Princess Electric Carbon 300B tubes has more detail, clarity and finesse then the 300B but the sound is a bit bright and not as "luscious".  I'm wondering then, if I roll some tubes on the Fezz, perhaps I can get back those qualities and postpone upgrading my speakers. 

[ThoFi]

2 minutes ago, Saltycoogee said:

I'm hoping to audition the M30.2 XD, C7ES-3 XD and the SHL5plus XD. I'm thinking about rolling tubes before getting new speakers because when I had the Willsenton R300 I was very happy with the tonality in my setup. I find the Fezz with the Princess Electric Carbon 300B tubes has more detail, clarity and finesse then the 300B but the sound is a bit bright and not as "luscious".  I'm wondering then, if I roll some tubes on the Fezz, perhaps I can get back those qualities and postpone upgrading my speakers. 

I own the R300 also and it’s warmer sounding than the Fezz.

So for me your speakers are on the brighter side and the more neutral Fezz boost that.

I am not sure if tube rolling brings you back the warmer sound of the R300.

Jean Louis also had the R300. His thoughts on that would be helpful

 

[Saltycoogee]

41 minutes ago, douxreveur131 said:

 

Hello Thomas and all of you. 

 

I don't have the pleasure of knowing your Harbeth loudspeakers. What I can say, however, is that they have an immense "Côte d'Amour" in France. In their category, they're considered an essential reference. 

 

As a result, it's surprising not to have a vast, deep sound image. As far as streaming is concerned, it's undoubtedly the DAC that you should turn to. Few of them really know how to offer a deep image. I'll mention Musical Paradise, Denafrips and Gustard R26, for those I know best. 

 

As for vinyl playback, I really don't know, as this is a field I left a long time ago. 

 

Finally, let's come back to the choice of 6SN7 tubes. I'd like to point out that the Linlai sound amazingly transparent, but they're not that warm. 

 

That's why they're great in the DAC, and there's a balance with much softer, warmer 6SN7s in the amplifier. If I can't find a pair of 6SN7 PSVANE 6SN7 black Treasure, I might be interested in the PSVANE 6SN7 Classic Serie. After all, the new FEZZs now come with these tubes as standard. Another solution would be to install the Linlai in the amplifier and choose very warm tubes in the dAC. But I find this inversion less logical. 

I wish Saltycoogee every success in his musical and audiophile quest !

 

Merci beaucoup Jean-Louis! I'll take your advice and try the warmer 6SN7s. If you read my recent reply to Thomas, you'll understand my "dilemma" (lol did I say "dilemma'!). I'm trying to recreate the warmth of the Willsenton 300B sound and combine it with the detail and clarity of the Fezz. You don't think I should roll the 300B tubes for now, correct?  I appreciate everyone's help here! This all completely new to me. BTW I saw you mentioned wanting black treasure tubes recently. I recently saw an ad for some Shuguang TREASURE 300B-Z Tubes. 

[ThoFi]

Many out there say that Chinese tubes tend to sound a little bright….

Many say the Tung Sol aren’t bad and do sound tubey and warm.

Give the Tung Sols a try.

 

Note: I have never heard Psavane tubes. And be careful there a different series available and they may do sound different!

Edited April 12 by ThoFi

[Saltycoogee]

31 minutes ago, ThoFi said:

Many out there say that Chinese tubes tend to sound a little bright….

Many say the Tung Sol aren’t bad and do sound tubey and warm.

Give the Tung Sols a try.

 

Note: I have never heard Psavane tubes. And be careful there a different series available and they may do sound different!

I'll give Tung Sol a try. Thanks again.