Anthem MCA30 and Anthem PVA7 and Parasound A31 Power Amplifiers

[mpearce38]

ummm... lot of questions to answer here

 

AVR = this is Preamp and power amp in one and will run 5 to 7 channels. Great for movies but for audio they often suffer, They tend to have smaller power supplies which also have to run the video circuits and surround processors. Hence they are not as powerful then a dedicated power amp. there can also be a lot of interference from these components in the audio path.  Most moderatly priced AVR's will offer 'Pre Outs' This basically allows you to take the signal from your avr and input it into an external power amp, effectively bypassing the internal amps of the AVR.

 

Pre Amp - OK these are designed as high quality preamps primarily for stereo sources. They normally have well designed power supplies and curcuits they handle stereo sources only like CD players or turntables. There is no power amplifiers on board it is basically a switch box and volume control for your sources. You must connect it to power amp. The sound quality is normally much better. Most modern Pre amps will offer a HT BYPASS fuction. Basically you connect the 'Pre Out' from our AVR into the pre amp and when you select HT bypass mode it will by pass though the signal from your AVR to the power amp bypassing the pre amp volume control. This means you use the volume control on your AVR to adjust the volume.

 

Now in grey area - you can AV Processors with no amps on board - good ones for stereo sources are Cary Audio 11a / Or Anthem AVM20 they are normally very expensive

 

You can by pre amps with power amps on board these are know as Integrated amps

 

never heard any nuforce stuff and as for power conditioner thats a personal choice and probably will be specific to your own set-up and needs

 

BTW do you have a budget may help to suggest could path and products?

Edited November 15, 2013 by mpearce38

[Perth.hifi]

Oh man... You love my questions don't ya. I'm Often told I ask to much. Haha. Truly Thanks Thou as you are really making me understand this. Thou still a little unclear. Sorry. I understand what a receiver is now. But if I don't use the amp inside it, does that improve the sound Quality? If the answer is yes, then why bother with a pre amp. This is what I don't understand. I can get a receiver with so many features ( Which I'm sure we'll never use) at a lower cost than most preamps. Are you telling me that, I'd in running the pre outs from the receiver that it will still suffer from having to run all the stuff the receiver has to do, such as video processing? Am I on track?

Maybe I should get your no. .. might be quicker I think to figure this out. . Ha

In terms of budget, what I had allowed seems to have to increase to be able to get quality. If I had to put at a budget for applifiers and/or receiver/pre-amp. Was $4000-$5000. But I can raise it to $7000-$8500 If need be. But that means I just need to tighten up elsewhere. Means I go the Panasonic projector instead of a Epson with Lens. Couldn't really justify the cost of a anamorphic lens anyway.

So if you had to look at brands such as parasound, anthem, integra, nuforce. What exactly would you recommend? You confused me ( yes once again ) with the integrated amp and bypass. My understanding is you can bypass most receivers. Is that when you simply select direct and it has no processing applied to the sound or is this something different?

Scenario one.

Parasound a31 , 3 channel 250x3 for front speakers and Centre.

Receiver or Pre-amp? Your saying I need both to run movies and music. Correct?

My understanding is yes. Or I can run the receiver only and power the surrounds of the receiver.

Scenario two.

Parasound a31 , 3 channel for fronts x 3

Parasound a52 , 5 channel 125x5 for rear four Surtounds.

Receiver or pre amp for movies and music.

If a receiver is only run the in built amps for the front highs for simulated 9.1 as ive already had the front highs pre wired in the new home as I got excited. Really only because I had my focal surrounds and wanted to use them. As I'm using ceiling treat surrounds add my room did not suit wall speakers. .. Any recommendations for ceiling speakers. I've got 6.5 inch performance series Sonance speakers selected atm.

[Midori]

Surround sound Perth having a moving sale this weekend. I saw them having a few projector on sale. The fixed screen are going at steep discount. You can pick a quality screen up for $250.

Oh and they are clearing quite some ceiling speakers as well.

Edited November 15, 2013 by coeuslee

[mpearce38]

hifi perth Hifi

 

1) Yes if you don't use the internal amps in your receiver and use dedicated power amps instead should improve sound quality especially if you go with anything of the calibre of parasound

 

2) lets clear something up. If you want an AVR with no internal amps this is generally called a surround sound controller or surround sound processor. This will handle all your video switching and decoding of multi channel audio like DTS and Dolby Digital which it will send to your external power amps. When you buy one of these they are very expensive more so then a similar specced unit with amps built in. Why??? million dollar question. Generally these products are aimed at high end installations hence the processing both video and audio will top notch, they normally have a a lot more inputs, advanced options for zoning, high quality EQ and room correction and advanced home automation options. 

 

3) When we use the term pre amp we are referring to a device which handles stereo audio sources only. they do not have any video switching (HDMI inputs) or EQ etc

 

I'm guessing you are more into movies and most music listening will be Blu rays music videos with the occasional CD or Music from your iPhone/ iPod?

 

if so check out the Marantz http://www.audiotrends.com.au/Marantz_AV7701_Black.html?action=viewProduct&itemId=1768

This has killer tech for video and the bonus is Marantz have  a reputation for delivering excellent music performance, so you will not need a separate pre amp for stereo sources we discussed in earlier posts as this should keep you adequately entertained I have seen x - demos on ebay for 1850 was considering this myself.

 

Match it with a parasound A51 (hell yea) and an A23 for the pesky satellites for a truly kick arse system will probably be pushing close to 10K all depends on what you can get the Parasounds for. If you can't go that high a good quality 7 channel amp around 200w will keep the focals very happy.

 

I think the avr to preamp to power amp senario will be a little too complicated for your set up. This route is normally preferred by audiophiles who are looking to integrate AV into there existing stereo set-up rather then the other way around which is i think what your trying to achieve which is an excellent AV system which performs admirably with Music

Edited November 16, 2013 by mpearce38

[mpearce38]

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Elektra-Theatron-7-Channel-Power-Amp-/261312195725?pt=AU_Electronics_Audio_Amplifiers&hash=item3cd76bac8d&_uhb=1

 

this is a very well regarded amp!

[Perth.hifi]

Ok.  Let's look at a couple possibilities.  If I used the A31 Paraound to run front three channels.  And a receiver to run the surrounds.  Would I then have a perfect two channel stereo system for music?  And would having a pre amp unit in this setup be useless?  Where I'm unclear is.  World a pre amp provide that much better sound in this set up for two channel stereo?  I'm trying to achieve best of both music and movies. 

 

Parasound A31 plus integra receiver.  With a option to purchase a second power amp for the surrounds.  So using the receiver as a pre amp only.  Would this achieve the best?   Or will a dedicated pre amp for music all be heaps or only a fraction better?  What makes a pre amp unit so much better in this scenario?  Correct me if I'm wrong but a receiver will have pretty much every option and still cost less than a pre amp? 

 

Paradound A31 plus integra controller preamp plus either integra 70.1 power amp setup. Would I still need a dedicated stereo pre amp for better music?  

 

I've also been told that I shouldn't mix power amp brands with fronts and surrounds.  Is this going to make a huge difference?  Eg parasound A31 front plus either integra or anthem or nuforce for surrounds or the integra receiver for surrounds? 

[mpearce38]

As i said above id buy the marantz processor with parasound power amps this would be an ultimate system for music and movies, 

Edited November 17, 2013 by mpearce38

[betty boop]

Probably need to decide your priorities, if it's 2ch prowess then need dedicated 2ch gear in the source and pre.

As far as power Amps go, can get an amp to drive your mains and/or rest of your speakers. If it's stereo then it's your mains that are most important. If it's av then it's the centre speaker that's most important. So get the amps to drive the speakers that are most important.

If it's mainly 2ch that's important in the amp side get something like a 2ch integrated with ht bypass eg the musical fidelity that are a great match for the focals. And partner with an arvo that will take care of rest.

A multichannel power amp will be a good option if want something to drive all your speakers, and the local Elektra pointed to earlier is a great match for the focals. But you'll need a 2ch pre with ht bypass then as an arvo or av pre amp unless spending a ridiculous amount on them is likely to be a let down 2ch wise.

Decide what your priorities are, questions you have to a user, not questions others can answer for you.

[WhakPak]

I have the luxury of both very good 2ch setup and multi-channel setup. I find even for watching movies I just use the 2ch, the multi-channel hardly gets used any more. I think you get a much more satisfying overall result focussing on 2ch as your first priority. If you incorporate a very good multi-channel amp to start with, once you've got your 2ch all sorted out it's straight forward to then tackle the movie side if you feel you need to.

[Perth.hifi]

Thanks again my fellow hifi junkies.  :-). I guess I've still got unanswered questions. I am taking on board all your comments.Manny have said that for music the best choice is a two channel amp.  So even though the parasound is a three channel.  What I'm thinking is it is equal too a two channel amp for me Stereo music use. ????? Yes or No.  I've not had a clear response to that question.  Once I've established that fact I can move on to the theatre side of things. ...... which them brings me to my decision of using a receiver for surround sound processing for movies and (2nd for music)..... midday have suggested a receiver is not the way to go for music, even though I would be using it as a preamp by running a separate power amp for the surrounds now or in the future.... as this is a new home build system,  my installer recommends integra, hence my choice of a integra receiver or integra controller pre amp. ... some have recommended marantz, being great for music, but how does it compare for movies????? I've not had any comments on that yet. ..... ive also had 4k pass through on my list of amplifier or pre amp wants,  hence why I've chosen the integra dtr60.5 receiver over the integra dhc30 controller preamp.  My installer has not recommended marantz for movies Thou hence my choice of integra.  I've also word up for front high speakers which I know is useless but I had spare focal surround speakers and wanted to use them. . So ireally need to decide if I want to use the receiverto power the surrounds now don't I,,, otherwise I would only get a pre amp plus a second amp for the surrounds. . Is that right? ??

Edited November 17, 2013 by Perth.hifi.gp

[WhakPak]

As I said at #10, just get a good 7 channel power amp and go from there...once you have 7 channels of amplification choose a pre-amp processor, several have been mentioned above and there are many others to choose from. Absence of 4k pass-through in a processor is no reason to remove it from your list of contenders.

Edited November 17, 2013 by brodricj

[betty boop]

Perth, if 2ch is important, there's two options way I see it.

Add a 2ch integrated amp with ht bypass eg musical fidelity a5/m6i integrated. This will do your mains justice. This would partner with an avr to take care of av side and 2ch. Best of both worlds.

Or buy a 7 ch power amp. Use an av pre and 2ch pre with ht bypass eg musical fidelity a5/m6 pre.

Both options ensure 2ch isn't scuttled by av processor/ avr pre amp stage.

The integras in my experience are not best choice for 2ch but excellent for av. If wanting to maintain 2ch prowess important to add 2ch gear.

Some brands eg arcam, the marantz 8801 pre, rotel, Cambridge, nad etc do have av gear that's also decent 2ch wise. These might be the in between choice if above 2 options not quite to liking.

[mpearce38]

Yes a31 will be indentical to a21

[mpearce38]

Hi Perth Hifi,

 

Lots of questions is good and I'm glad your jumping on this forum to expand your knowledge. It is a great source of info and you will learn a lot from the contributors here.

 

It's really hard to give you good advice because audio is very subjective and everyone has there own preferences in sounds and budgets. You want the best for music and movies which is what we are all striving for but unfortunately our budgets mean we must all compromise at some point (yes even with 10K)

 

Without knowing what your willing to compromise it is really hard to give advice on what to do and I doubt you yourself know what your after or more importantly whats achievable.

 

Not sure when your moving into your house but prehaps you should take a step by step approach. First I would choose a nice AVR one that had the best video processing you can afford and just start with that. Run your speakers and see how it does for Movies and Music you may find it ticks all your boxes or you may find it is under powered  and distorts at the levels you listen at, then you can make an informed decision on wether you need external power amps or not.

 

Same with 2 channel music - You may find the AVR is fine for two cannel listening or you may find two channel listening boring or fatiguing and decide to spend more money on a dedicated preamp but once again your decision will be an informed one.

[WhakPak]

Same with 2 channel music - You may find the AVR is fine for two cannel listening or you may find two channel listening boring or fatiguing and decide to spend more money on a dedicated preamp but once again your decision will be an informed one.

 

The speakers are probably more responsible for listening fatigue than anything else, so choose your main speakers to suit 2ch. An AVR might be fine for 2ch listening, but a dedicated 2ch pre-amp is likely to be better (my Integra pre-pro is not involved at all for 2ch because my dedicated 2ch preamp is so much better).

[Perth.hifi]

Hi Brod... I've got focal 826v towers atm.  Will see how it goes with the parasound a31 amp.  The elektra seven channel amp recommended here by others, I've never heard of, is it as good as parasound, what is the brand name,, can't find a website for it?  So it seems of I want great movie sound I should get a controller pre amp.  And if I want great music I should get a second or amp,  or are you saying a integrated amp which has built in amp power?  That's something I don't understand.  I'm just trying to understand the concept,  and I do understand that it's a personal choice,  I'm just after more understanding. Ih have been considering a integra pre amp controller,  but hesitant now. So how is your system wired up mate?  You have a pre amp integra and a second pre amp for music, is that right? 

[WhakPak]

So how is your system wired up mate? You have a pre amp integra and a second pre amp for music, is that right?

Correct. I have 2 signal paths.

For 2ch: source player>2ch preamp>main amps>main speakers

For multi-channel: source player>pre-pro>

2ch preamp (set to pass-through)>main amps>main speakers

surround amps>surround speakers

To change from 2ch playback to movies it's simply a matter of selecting the correct input on the pre-amp, and turning on the pre-pro.

Edited November 18, 2013 by brodricj

[WhakPak]

...So it seems of I want great movie sound I should get a controller pre amp....

Great movie sound = pre-pro + multi-channel amps

Great 2ch = pre-amp + stereo amp (or 2 mono blocks)

[WhakPak]

....or are you saying a integrated amp which has built in amp power?

Great at nothing, except a simple installation in a single box

[Perth.hifi]

Ok. I think maybe I've had a break thru. I've been thinking all this time that a stereo pre amp is equal to a pre amp processor, meaning the same thing in terms of sound reproduction.  Ate you saying there is a huge difference?  I had assumed the receiver was the only issue.  So what does one have to look for in a stereo pre amp?  And why is a pre amp Processor not as good?  Here is another another scrnario, why can't I simply use a high quality cd player that uses its own Dac instead of the processor or receive? 

Edited November 18, 2013 by Perth.hifi.gp

[mpearce38]

have a look at this pic for an example of how to integrate a stereo preamp.

 

When listening to music sources i.e cd player turntable or music from a computer like itunes you would only have your preamp and power amp on driving the front speakers. No messy AVR stuffing with the stereo signal

 

When watching a movie you would have your bluray feeding into your AVR via HDMI cable. Then the front speakers would feed via the P5 preamp in HT bypass and the centre out of the intrgra directly to the A31which drives the centre speaker

 

The surround duties is handled by the amps built into the integra AVR 

 

 

Edited November 18, 2013 by mpearce38

[WhakPak]

...why can't I simply use a high quality cd player that uses its own Dac instead of the processor or receive?

You can, which is exactly what I do (see post #42). The pre-pro is entirely removed from my 2ch setup. The source player is connected directly to the pre-amp.

Remember: pre-amp = dedicated 2ch, pre-pro = 2ch + multi-channel, AVR = pre-pro with built-in power amps.

[WhakPak]

If I was spending your money, my 2nd choice solution for you would be:

One of these:

http://www.parasound.com/halo/p7.php

One of these:

http://www.parasound.com/halo/a31.php

Plus whatever surround channel amps, plus a good source player with a full set of analog outputs.

[Perth.hifi]

You guys are legends.  It's all finally starting to make some sense  $$$$$ :-) I've got some thinking to do. The diagram above really makes sense now.  It paints a  thousand words. .. When would you connect the 7.1 inputs into the P7 above?  Would a basic preamp and high end cf player achieve the sound quality as a high end pre amp?  .......Pearce in your diagram,  if the integra receiver were removed,  it could be replaced with a integra DHC 80.3 controller and then have a power amplifier running of it for the surrounds,  right? 

Edited November 18, 2013 by Perth.hifi.gp

[Midori]

brod's suggestion on the P7 is good. I think the performance of the P7 would be fairly close to it's dedicated 2 channel preamp P5 model. This could then potentially save you the need for a 2 channel pre-amp.

 

However, from what I can see, your Integra 60.5 has got 11.2 pre-out options. This means that you could still use your Integra as a HT processor and use its internal amp to drive your surrounds. The pre-outs for front 3s are then connected to the power amp. In summary :

 

For HT movie

Blu-ray player -> Intergra -> surround speakers via the speaker taps.

Integra pre-outs front 2 channels -> a dedicated 2 channel pre-amp with HT by-pass capability (I think the Parasound P5 has this) -> A31

Integra pre-out centre channel -> A31

 

For music

CD player - a dedicated 2 channel pre-amp with HT by-pass capability (I think the Parasound P5 has this) - A31

 

This is how I am connecting my set-up at the moment and I think brod and mpearce have theirs set up this way as well.