Willsenton R8 Owners & Discussion Thread

[2Dculture]

Thanks @echorec for sharing the link. A pleasant surprise this morning. Nice review with his signature stories and weird analogies. While a bit disappointing that he didn't discuss tube rolling in this video but great that he's generous enough to make a separate video on it. 

 

He even spoke about the preamp bypass which @Atmaj highlighted. 

 

I took the plunge 2 weeks ago and purchased some tungsols. for the pretubes. Very big difference switching between the standard 6SL7s, shuguangs and tungsols. The difference can be further tuned with the KT88 and EL34s. 

 

This is a dangerous amp for tube rolling. I might make one more tube purchase based on his next video if it make sense. But that's it.. I wanna save for another speaker. 

 

 

[echorec]

34 minutes ago, 2Dculture said:

This is a dangerous amp for tube rolling. I might make one more tube purchase based on his next video if it make sense. But that's it.. I wanna save for another speaker.

 

Dangerous, but so much fun! I'm really excited for his tube rolling video. He mentioned elsewhere that either Mr. Vintage or Mr. Kanta used some VERY expensive NOS tubes to see what it was capable of. That will be a fun video.

[2Dculture]

16 minutes ago, echorec said:

He mentioned elsewhere that either Mr. Vintage or Mr. Kanta used some VERY expensive NOS tubes to see what it was capable of. That will be a fun video.

Oh yes.. I remember that. There was a video or a photo showing the different tubes one of them had purchased. 

 

It is fun.. esp if you want to shape the sound.

[Atmaj]

I have done plenty of tube rolling including new and NOS and I think I am done with it 

 

It was a bit disappointing that Thomas did not use the snaps I sent him. He liked this post and said that he may use in his video.

[2Dculture]

2 hours ago, Atmaj said:

I have done plenty of tube rolling including new and NOS and I think I am done with it 

 

I'm pretty there already. Just seeing what else Thomas will recommend. I noticed he showed the Shuguang 6SL7 in the video. i wonder if its a sign of things to come. 

 

My priority now is a pre-loved Klipsch. Sonus Faber are great but I realise its not that great for music that has urgency. 

 

Ya.. he didn't mention or showed your diagrams. I was expecting some reference to you whenever he mentioned a subscriber. Would be nice. But I think we learnt more about the R8 in your journey tearing apart the system than his review. So thanks for your sharing and importantly, starting this thread Mr OP!

 

His review was nice but it was more about affirmation about our purchase, whether it was good or bad. I like my purchase so I know its good but would be nice if some kind of influencer who have heard more gear than me likes it as well. 

[echorec]

Ok guys, now the question is: Who's gonna change their caps?!

[08Boss302]

Great review, a few weeks back, maybe even over a month when Thomas first posted he was going to review the R8 I got the vibe he didnt enjoy it as he illuded to a lot of NOS tube rolling and the massive differences it made and the cost of NOS tubes vs the cost of the amp...whilst I have no insight I am kind of expecting that to be a feature in his follow up video.  Having said that, I could be way off and NOS tubes on any amp irrespective of purchase price add up quick.

I really enjoy his channel, I find him one of the best on YouTube in all his reviews. I like his stories and the way he goes about explaining each piece of equipment he reviews. I also like how his reviews are quite real world gear, whether thats intentional or chance I dont know but it draws me to his channel frequently looking for his next review.

 

Anyway, Good to see another positive review of this amp.  The price of the amp seems to be a point often referenced, which keeps indicating to me it is competetive well beyond its rrp tag.

 

He was bang on about the difference in TR vs UL.  The change is drastic. With the KT88 its pushes everything forward and singer right in your face almost.

I am still running the Willsenton tubes KT88.  Some suggest in tube amps to roll the power tubes first for most change but this amp seems to lean toward the pre tubes being swapped out first.

...that said, I am happy enough for now, I'll definately experiment but for the time being I am happy to leave good enough alone - before hitting the slippery slope!!

 

Great thread, I have to say it again!!

Edited November 17, 2020 by 08Boss302

[Atmaj]

4 hours ago, echorec said:

Ok guys, now the question is: Who's gonna change their caps?!

Probably I wouldn't bother. Caps are like cables, bad caps and bad cables can deteriorate the sound but once at a standard level, any further better quality won't affect anything. R8 already seems to have good quality caps. I have changed on my previous amp Yaqin and it made a small difference but those stock caps were pretty ordinary.

 

This is my opinion being more a technical person than an audiophile

[muon*]

..................

Edited July 22, 2021 by muon*

[Graywulf]

On 21/10/2020 at 1:23 PM, 08Boss302 said:

Hi All..

Upto about a dozen hours now and all is good.

I am very happy with lows, I am finding the mids/highs  a bit forward and even maybe brittle, maybe even distored is a good word but its not true distortion. More so a sound presentation that is not my preference.  

Further burn in might settle this down but reading around it could also be the KT88 doing what they're designed to do.  Maybe they're not as forgiving with hard rock and metal as I was aiming for.  That small and very fixable thing aside  I have no humming or any other noise to raise any unwanted suspicions.   Its great. 

I have read around online with regard to tubes  to allow about 40hrs of burn in but am wondering if the KT88 will settle to the sound signature I like or if I need/should consider rolling these out sooner than my initial plan?

To provide clarity I am after a fat "laid back" sound.  Lows I like to have some kick,  mids dont need to be overly pronounced but a flat mid quite ok.. With highs, a sweeter sound, nothing overly exaggerated or glassy, even slightly rolled off is better than bright!!!  I am new to this rolling caper and also have some confusion about rolling the pre tubes or the power tubes first and which is going to have influence.

 

Based on reading through this thread and the rolling already done I am not sure the KT77 or 6550 are quite what I am after but also happy to advised otherwise.

I am thinking maybe the Tung Sol EL34B will be good. Most suggest its mids are clean and full, plenty of bass and slightly softer but well detailed top end all without being a forwardly accentuated presentation. 

For the 6SN7 I am thinking the Tung Sol GTB or the EHGold Pin both seem to be well regarded - not sure of any distinct SQ signature being vastly different.

For the 6SL7 I am thinking the Tung Sol or the Sovtek, again, pretty well regarded and not much to suggest much difference. 

 

Whilst I wont be pulling the trigger on any of the above this week or so I am happy to get some opinion on the above options.  I can keep playing music with all the stock tubes and if still itching for change I can make some purchases.

 

Cheers.

 

Hi Boss,

 not into speed/thrash type, but classic rock (inc Motorhead) rock/pop. prog, through to classical.

Allowing for the fact different ears, speakers, amps and brands of equipment/tubes produces a different sound, my thought would be this.

  Get some decent NoS tubes, doesn't have to be the 'holy grail' gear, but what would be 'average production'  back then, will still outperform 90%+ of modern tubes. (6SN7 & 6SL7). These will make the biggest difference to the sound. 6SN7's can tend to be microphonic, so you may need to look at isolation of the amp (pads/rubber) under the feet. KT77's will basically give you a KT88 type sound, 6CA7 could be a possible option in the EL34 type end of the tube family. I am running the Sovtek 6550WE at present, they are not a bad tube overall. Best advice for outputs is google search 'best sounding KT88' and you'll get a lot of info from forums, and sellers like the tubestore often have purchaser reviews. That'll give you an idea of the possible sonic signature you can expect.

 Some dislike Chinese tubes, some dislike the 'new sensor corp' tubes because they are now trading on the 'name' of some of the best tubes made, but they are NOTHING like the original. So maybe the standard EH tubes? Some I know in other forums are impressed with the Psvane KT88-2, others like  the Shuguang treasures, many say the 'new' Gold Lion (new sensor corp) are the best. At the end of the day, it's always a bit of a lottery as to what tube YOU prefer.

 

 

[demoiree]

19 hours ago, 2Dculture said:

I'm pretty there already. Just seeing what else Thomas will recommend. I noticed he showed the Shuguang 6SL7 in the video. i wonder if its a sign of things to come. 

 

 

i suspect he is just sharing the tubes he received from chinahifi , hopefully he makes a video on his R8 tube rolling experience.

18 hours ago, 08Boss302 said:

He was bang on about the difference in TR vs UL.  The change is drastic. With the KT88 its pushes everything forward and singer right in your face almost.

I am still running the Willsenton tubes KT88.  Some suggest in tube amps to roll the power tubes first for most change but this amp seems to lean toward the pre tubes being swapped out first.

 

from a technical standpoint ,the power output is very much different between TR and UL so i suspect we are just hearing softer versus louder volume??  I wonder if there is any difference if we match wattage and SPL output between TR and UL , someone with an oscilloscope could probably do this experiment. 

 

i tried both EL34 and KT88 on the R8 , i do concur with Thomas , the R8 seems to have very strong bass(i compared this with muzishare x7), so running the KT88 seems abit boomy in my room. EL34 on the other hand sounded more natural and pleasing.

 

 

 

 

 

[demoiree]

22 hours ago, Atmaj said:

I have done plenty of tube rolling including new and NOS and I think I am done with it 

 

It was a bit disappointing that Thomas did not use the snaps I sent him. He liked this post and said that he may use in his video.

maybe you could share the snaps here  

[Atmaj]

28 minutes ago, demoiree said:

maybe you could share the snaps here  

You have already done it mate 

[demoiree]

10 minutes ago, Atmaj said:

You have already done it mate 

Ah , haha I thought you have some with your NOS tubes installed etc

[Atmaj]

16 minutes ago, demoiree said:

Ah , haha I thought you have some with your NOS tubes installed etc

I only have 6SL7 as NOS, 6SN7 are new Tung Sol and power tubes are new 6CA7 EH so picture is not worth enough 

I tried NOS Tung Sol 6SU7 WGT and found out to be much brighter then Sylvania 6SL7 so sold those off. Sylvania 6SL7 are very well balanced, sweet sounding  tubes.

 

[2Dculture]

47 minutes ago, demoiree said:

 

i suspect he is just sharing the tubes he received from chinahifi , hopefully he makes a video on his R8 tube rolling experience.

 

from a technical standpoint ,the power output is very much different between TR and UL so i suspect we are just hearing softer versus louder volume??  I wonder if there is any difference if we match wattage and SPL output between TR and UL , someone with an oscilloscope could probably do this experiment. 

 

i tried both EL34 and KT88 on the R8 , i do concur with Thomas , the R8 seems to have very strong bass(i compared this with muzishare x7), so running the KT88 seems abit boomy in my room. EL34 on the other hand sounded more natural and pleasing.

 

Thomas did say he will make a video on the R8 tube rolling. Hopefully he'll bring his friends along. One of them bought a lot of tubes to roll. Was reading through some of the comments and Thomas tested the shuguang from Chinahifi.. I think he said something about clarity and sparkle. I forgot. But having done so myself switching from the stock 6SL7 to the shuguang, i felt it was more sensitive, more natural mid range and really good for vocals. 

 

With the KT88 and the shuguang, the bass was a bit boomy and a bit wide and muddy. Switch to EL34, the stage shrank a bit and everything came into focus on the centre. Something moving from a live pub to a small recital. 

 

I then switched the shuguang to tungsol, the tungsol was clean and bright but dropped a bit in the chesty area.. the stage height was cut by about 25%. Switch to back to KT88, everything went back up with different characteristics. 

 

This amp is fun. I think part of it is that the amp is very transparent and sensitive to changes. Thomas mentioned a hiss in his 6SL7. My stock 6SL7 has a hiss as well, the shuguang has a hum (which I returned for a set with no hum), the tungsols are silent. Maybe this, sensitivity is also what makes the TR and UL so distinct. To me the difference between TR and UL is not only the volume. the singer is behind the speakers in TR and in front of the speakers in UL. TR has a quieter/ blacker background. Maybe I misunderstood you when you say its just volume, but if I crank up the volume in TR, the singer's mouth is bigger and higher but does not 'walk' from the back from the speakers to the front. But maybe its my set up. 

 

On that note, going back to what @muon* said, maybe the changing the caps for the R8 will see a difference. Bad analogy but cheap cars you feel lots of stuff coz its bare bones and a minor tweak, you'll feel it. An expensive car is well insulated so your modifications need to be more impactful for you to feel a difference. Keen to hear his experience but I'm not technically savvy and not the one who will try this. 

[Atmaj]

17 hours ago, muon* said:

On paper maybe not, but in the real world they can have a profound improvement, but you need to know what to change to, changing from an ordinary cap to a slightly less ordinary cap is going to be more subtle or sideways move.

 

I embrace the technical side but keep an open ear at the same time.

 

I don't have this amp, but do have a EL34 PP AB triode strapped amp, original coupling caps were like Benic or similar, then I bypassed them with Mundorf silver and oil, big audible change and a nice one, then I replaced that combo with Duelund Alexandra Copper Foil and Oil caps, better again if you prefer a more natural sound over all like I do.

 

They also have to be able to fit and some of the better caps are larger, definitely so with copper foil types, you also need to, or at least it is advisable to install them taking into consideration the outer foil end, this is in fact a technical aspect as orientated the correct way will allow better shielding of RFI.

 

Anyway, cap rolling is something I do even though I also adhere to technical aspects for the larger part in this hobby.

 

Each to their own paths though.

 

Edit: oops, typo

You encourages me to go for it . 

 

I somewhat agree with you. It makes difference in some amp and not in others and also depends upon the existing caps. The main problem is that those caps like Mundorf silver oil are pretty expensive to try. Not as easy as NOS tubes to sell again if no difference found so it is a risk of about $350. 

 

I can take a risk of trying with Mundorf EVO oil caps as they are cheaper but again comes back to same dilemma that even if there is a difference, it will not be noticeable as existing caps are not bad (not oil caps though but good quality film caps).

 

Regarding RFI, you will notice is it if you have it so no point in changing caps if you don't have interference but yes, if you are replacing, follow the orientation which does not harm at all. 

Edited November 17, 2020 by Atmaj

[echorec]

For me the difference between TR/UL:

 

TR: Softer highs/upper mids. Center image is pushed back. Quieter in relation to volume level. Sounds better than UL when pushed, though it also depends on the recording.

 

UL: Brighter, more upper mids, and more forward. Louder in relation to volume. For me, UL sounds better at lower volumes (less than 70db). I use UL almost as I would a loudness button, but again, it depends on the recording.

 

The soundstage widths are equal. TR is not as tall.

 

I use both equally 50/50. It's nice to have the option. For example, Roger Waters' Amused to Death album sounds especially nice in TR because his vocals are very forward on that recording with my speakers. It's nice to tame the vocals and push them back a bit. Same with the vocals on Norah Jones' Come Away With Me album. TR tames the hot vocal mix. But if the vocals are already lean in the recording, TR doesn't sound as good and the vocals will seem too distant.

[Atmaj]

37 minutes ago, echorec said:

For me the difference between TR/UL:

 

TR: Softer highs/upper mids. Center image is pushed back. Quieter in relation to volume level. Sounds better than UL when pushed, though it also depends on the recording.

 

UL: Brighter, more upper mids, and more forward. Louder in relation to volume. For me, UL sounds better at lower volumes (less than 70db). I use UL almost as I would a loudness button, but again, it depends on the recording.

 

The soundstage widths are equal. TR is not as tall.

 

I use both equally 50/50. It's nice to have the option. For example, Roger Waters' Amused to Death album sounds especially nice in TR because his vocals are very forward on that recording with my speakers. It's nice to tame the vocals and push them back a bit. Same with the vocals on Norah Jones' Come Away With Me album. TR tames the hot vocal mix. But if the vocals are already lean in the recording, TR doesn't sound as good and the vocals will seem too distant.

 

Yeah, my observation with TR/UL mode is exactly same as yours. UL is too forward and gain in upper mid bit too much. I prefer TR mode all the time as it is more natural sounding and softer too.

[muon*]

......................

Edited July 22, 2021 by muon*

[echorec]

@muon* Are these the coupling caps? If so, they are 0.22uf 630 VDC. They measure 24 mm long x 15 mm tall (off the PCB), and are 11 mm wide. This is my old faulty bias PCB, so I don't know how close to the bottom cover they are, but there is definitely some room because the brown capacitors are 5mm taller than these silver caps off the PCB. That means replacements could be at least 20 mm tall if mounted flush with that PCB.

 

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by echorec

[muon*]

.....................

Edited July 22, 2021 by muon*

[muon*]

.............................

Edited July 22, 2021 by muon*

[08Boss302]

15 hours ago, Graywulf said:

 

Hi Boss,

 not into speed/thrash type, but classic rock (inc Motorhead) rock/pop. prog, through to classical.

Allowing for the fact different ears, speakers, amps and brands of equipment/tubes produces a different sound, my thought would be this.

  Get some decent NoS tubes, doesn't have to be the 'holy grail' gear, but what would be 'average production'  back then, will still outperform 90%+ of modern tubes. (6SN7 & 6SL7). These will make the biggest difference to the sound. 6SN7's can tend to be microphonic, so you may need to look at isolation of the amp (pads/rubber) under the feet. KT77's will basically give you a KT88 type sound, 6CA7 could be a possible option in the EL34 type end of the tube family. I am running the Sovtek 6550WE at present, they are not a bad tube overall. Best advice for outputs is google search 'best sounding KT88' and you'll get a lot of info from forums, and sellers like the tubestore often have purchaser reviews. That'll give you an idea of the possible sonic signature you can expect.

 Some dislike Chinese tubes, some dislike the 'new sensor corp' tubes because they are now trading on the 'name' of some of the best tubes made, but they are NOTHING like the original. So maybe the standard EH tubes? Some I know in other forums are impressed with the Psvane KT88-2, others like  the Shuguang treasures, many say the 'new' Gold Lion (new sensor corp) are the best. At the end of the day, it's always a bit of a lottery as to what tube YOU prefer.

 

 

Thanks @Graywulf

It is certainly something I aim to do and will do a bit or research prior.  Its like you mentioned, there are different ears, speakers, rooms etc and I think I can do a bit of reading and absorb information online and in this thread to grab some tubes that will lean toward the type of sound I like and expand on what the factory fitted tubes provide.

[Atmaj]

1 hour ago, muon* said:

If they fit with 50mm length and 30mm diameter, the Miflex KPCU-01 (0.22uF 600Vdc, Copper Foil Paper/Polypropylene in Oil) are between $25 and $30aud each, depending on where you buy. They are $16.58USD at parts connxion in Canada.

 

Note that the lead outs are twisted pairs of 0.8mm, relevant to connecting to a through hole PCB.

https://www.partsconnexion.com/media/pdfs/MIFLEX-85251.pdf

Those are the coupling caps, total 4 for each tube. There is also one 0.33uf grid leak (bypass) cap in phase splitter.

 

Space is not the problem as if it does not fit on the pcb, can be installed on chassis and wired up to pcb.

 

With that amount,  I am happy to give it a try . Mudorf EVO oil are cheap but only 450V and Supreme oil are about $70 each on Soundlabs.