Gee Emm Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 (edited) I am in the process of amassing pro amplifiers, 18" drivers, microphone, downloading software etc so I can build 2 bass bins and setup my speakers after I refit my room. The 2 x 18" bass bins will be at the front of the room, and my current 12" sub will be the bass support at the back of the room. Paul Spencer has previously assisted with taking ~50 measurements of my room using REW etc, so I know what my room does bass wise. So part of my plan at Bathurst this year, was to setup my laptop with external sound card, REW, microphone, etc and learn more about setting up test gear & using REW & using this new found knowledge back at home. Well it seems that after a lot of fiddling, swearing, cable swapping, swearing, looping back, swearing etc my particular effing laptop wouldn't do it with the internal sound card, an external sound card or any other effing sound card or external device. But... It worked straight away & as easy as pie on 2 other laptops (one was a Mac one was using Win 7). God I hate computers some days. Make that most days. Even though it didn't work on my laptop, I was still able to learn from others efforts and it again was reinforced how for a coupla hundred dollars and an investment in some time; testing and measuring can remove days, weeks & months of effing around & basically guessing as to what we are doing when trying to optimise speakers in a room. You could still not have it right after months. We worked our way through a white paper on optimising speakers for stereo listening (reference to follow). The ability to identify changes in not just frequency response, but also other things like determine noise floor, waterfall plots, room echo etc cannot be underestimated. So although my laptop is crap for this type of function, I will either get another/borrow one or use my PC to do the testing in my room once I have built my bass bins. How we could spend many $000's of dollars on vinyl, CDs, etc & many more $000's on equipment and setting up rooms and not spend a coupla hundred dollars on some test gear, or spend a coupla hundred $ paying someone to do it for you is beyond me. So, if you are one of the "microphones are for singers" crew, I strongly recommend you check out what some measurement can really do. Maybe you know someone with some test gear, and a laptop or computer (that isn't like mine). It is a real eye opener. Graham Edited October 10, 2012 by mr-happy-pants 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArthurDent Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 (edited) Wouldn't this get more attention in the Room Acoustics & Tweaks section as it's soon going to be buried in this one. And never understood the "microphones are for singers" bit as surely they know that other musicians use them as well. Edited October 10, 2012 by KenTripp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Ken, You'd think a bloke with his experience would know where to put it. Geezers Humpypants, take a good look at yourself before it's too late. BTW, you know there is the clan from over the hill who think they know better than to take measurements. (It's the same group that swear cables change). Are you hoping to start a fight with them.? You could easily be outnumbered - which is very saddening, in human advancement terms. Anyway watcha gonna do, get a new lappie ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gee Emm Posted October 10, 2012 Author Share Posted October 10, 2012 Wouldn't this get more attention in the Room Acoustics & Tweaks section as it's soon going to be buried in this one. G'day Ken. My bad. If one of the mods could move it, thanks. Anyway watcha gonna do, get a new lappie ?? G'day nigel I reckon that might be on the cards. One of the guys there had a great external USB soundcard I'm keen to get. https://www.storedj.com.au/products/FOC-SCARLETT2I2 I've got the other stuff needed. Mic, cable, tripod, freeware (REW), time I've done it by ear. Slow, cumbersome, mainly guesswork but free. Ive done it by measurement. Fast, efficient, auditable & minor $ outlay. A bit like I've been poor (didn't like it) I've had money to spend (really like it) Exciting times for me, now that I've started (finally). Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Sounds good Graham, everyone that does measuring says the learning curve is steep but once you've got it, you can measure anythign and everything that comes to mind, in a few seconds. I've watched John Reekie run many sweeps, he is so fast and I remember when he was starting out. Glasslugger is learning now. I hope to learn how after I move out of my current abode/commode. Another nice thing is that you can go over to a mate's place and suss out what he/she needs, very easily. See you next week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter the Greek Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 I've got a Tascam 144mkii? I think it is, works well - PITA to get working, but once you figure it out its great. Cheaper than the one you linked too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joz Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 (edited) Anyone seriously contemplating subs really need to do this. I don't know why people don't do it? Apart from the intial outlay and the learning curve, which can be quite daunting I suppose. Also it sure does help having someone hold your hand through the learning stages even just to make sure that what you are doing intially is correct. But people DO drop huge amounts of coin on a system then go about setting it up with a white stick..??? Generally only a day or two with of measurements,frustration and adjustments will get the system sorted. Have fun HP Edited October 10, 2012 by joz 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L J T Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Paul's Bass Integration Guide is excellent. I would highly recommend it to anybody who is looking into taking measurements or learning about frequency plots and responses near and far field. It helped me to get a good in-room response of my DIY subwoofer. I could not imagine setting up a subwoofer without measurements now. I believe they are essential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gee Emm Posted October 10, 2012 Author Share Posted October 10, 2012 FYI This is the paper we were working to http://blog.acousticfrontiers.com/storage/acoustic_measurement_standards.pdf Excerpts from the introduction Introduction Much has been written about acoustical standards for home theater and professional studio control rooms. Very little, however, has been committed to paper about acoustical standards for high end stereo or two channel music listening rooms. The very practice of locating only two speakers and a single listening location in a room leads to consequences that are too often ignored and certainly poorly understood. In this coâ€authored white paper Nyal Mellor of Acoustic Frontiers and Jeff Hedback of HdAcoustics aim to explain a basic set of acoustical standards that can be used in the evaluation of existing rooms or the design and postâ€construction verification of a new room. ... It is therefore imperative that we do not just blindly expect well known studio and home theater design concepts to port straight into a two channel environment. We must develop our own set of acoustical standards that take into account the unique aspects of two channel reproduction in the home environment. ... With the recent availability of free or low cost ‘prosumer’ acoustical measurement systems such as Room EQ Wizard, XTZ Room Analyzer and Parts Express Omnimic dedicated enthusiasts can now take a set of measurements that describe the acoustical performance of their existing room. ... This paper puts forward a set of targets for what the acoustical measurements of a high performance two channel music listening room should look like. We describe what the key measurements are, what an optimal measurement would be and a range of acceptability. Once a room’s measurements have been compared with targets the end user can then decide whether to go the path of educating themselves on acoustics, acoustic treatment and acoustic design by reading books and experimenting and/or hire the services of an acoustical designer to correct their room’s acoustical deficiencies." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gainphile Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 So, if you are one of the "microphones are for singers" crew, I strongly recommend you check out what some measurement can really do. Maybe you know someone with some test gear, and a laptop or computer (that isn't like mine). It is a real eye opener. Graham Welcome to the mic-waving, measurement brigade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gee Emm Posted October 12, 2012 Author Share Posted October 12, 2012 Thanks Gainphile We is increasing in numbers Some actually do it as a profession, rather than set up their based on "I reckon ..." With the ongoing increase in white papers and the like, it is slowly becoming normal to measure if you want to optimise your speakers/room. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gee Emm Posted October 13, 2012 Author Share Posted October 13, 2012 Check out this youtube of a measured room treatment comparison over the Bathurst weekend. Comparing a non sound treated room with standard furnishings and carpet with an identical (mirror imaged) room fitted with acoustic treatment including bass traps, diffuser panels, deflector panels, etc. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norpus Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Sounds the same on my ipad Doh! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joz Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Sounds the same on my ipad Doh! Perhaps your ipad can be modded, then it would sound better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headbanger Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 So part of my plan at Bathurst this year, was to setup my laptop with external sound card, REW, microphone, etc and learn more about setting up test gear & using REW & using this new found knowledge back at home. Well it seems that after a lot of fiddling, swearing, cable swapping, swearing, looping back, swearing etc my particular effing laptop wouldn't do it with the internal sound card, an external sound card or any other effing sound card or external device. But... It worked straight away & as easy as pie on 2 other laptops (one was a Mac one was using Win 7). God I hate computers some days. Make that most days. Even though it didn't work on my laptop, I was still able to learn from others efforts and it again was reinforced how for a coupla hundred dollars and an investment in some time; testing and measuring can remove days, weeks & months of effing around & basically guessing as to what we are doing when trying to optimise speakers in a room. You could still not have it right after months. ........ It is a real eye opener. Graham Hi Graham, My first attempt was fine - all worked as it should - plug & pray = plug & play. Next few attempts at using REW, Windows 7 would only allow the laptop mic to work & not my TASCAM US-122MkII which of course I did not check as it was fine the first time I used the setup. Measurements of course did not correlate with what I heard. 40" ribbons off axis guaranteed that plus the laptop mic optimised for speech. Really frustrating. Almost to the stage of teaching the laptop how to swim [hint: a couple of bubbles & at the bottom of the pool in 5 secs]. Sometimes I really hate Windows. Both my desktop & work laptop are rock solid, nothing ever goes wrong. However add a new device which is not natively supported by Windows then the fun starts with Windows choosing what is default & sometimes it gets it wrong..... Very wrong at times. Easy fix though, just disabled the laptop mic driver once I realised what the issue was. Cannot choose a disabled service !!! One of the benefits of using the mic + REW + DEQ to tame room acoustics is that you become aware of what different frequencies sound like. No doubt with frequency awareness training, it could help to flatten a system by ear. After hundreds to thousands of hours of listening & playing music, most musicians can tell you what note it is, but I don't have that skill. If room EQ is to be done by ear using music as a reference, guaranteed to never get it right. When listening to speakers it is far quicker to flatten a system in the room using pink noise rather than music if you know what flat sounds like. Using music is too inconsistent. Mics, mic technique, producer/studio voicing bias etc. make for variable references. Using your favourite disc, you think you have it nailed on one CD/LP/etc. then change the reference disc & you start all over again. A mic is consistent day to day & certainly far quicker than trying to do by ear. Throw in software like REW & it becomes repeatable & consistent. Certainly beats dragging the speakers outside to hear them without the room adding it's sonic signature as some have done, me included. Good luck with your endeavours to tame the room. Cheers Russ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gee Emm Posted December 21, 2012 Author Share Posted December 21, 2012 G'day Russ I now have all the gear I need to play (pray) with this over the XMAS break. My pair of 18"DiY 250 litre subs are also built. Carpet gets laid today. So after that, all the gear gets put in place. A bit of a close shave, but done before XMAS, so should be good. Have a good one. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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