To toe in or not toe in. That is the question? A SUB….??????

[Almaz]

Had a bit of fun this afternoon with the sub. While making sure it meet the correct criteria. Wonderful bass notes, that seem like they are creating by the speakers.

Got that dialed in right after a lot of ups and downs back to the sub controls. Isn’t it funny how some rooms take only a few minutes to get right, others much, much longer. I started playing around with the toe in, with varying degrees of success.

What are your thoughts……?????

 

[Silver Audiophile]

I would refer to the speakers manual, regarding the toe in or not. 

Speakers with a good off-axis response will allow for minimal to no toe in. 

Minimal toe in, will give the widest soundstage and help cast the most detailed 3D image. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Keith_W]

This is why data like this is so helpful. This is a random speaker I pulled from Google search: 

 

 

It tells you exactly how far you can toe in/out your speaker before you start hearing a lumpy frequency response. As @Silver Audiophile said, engaging side wall reflections is what gives you a sense of space. Less toe in gives you more reflections, which may or may not be a good thing depending on your speaker. 

 

Most of us aren't lucky enough to have access to data like this about our speakers. So I use the age old technique of toe-ing them in/out until they sound right. I generally prefer to toe my speakers in until they directly face the listening position, then toe them out a tiny bit so that they are in-line with the ears. 

[Almaz]

I do apologise if my topic was misleading. I’m all good with the toe in on the speakers. Got the image just where I like it,I was only referring to the Sub.

Thank you both for your comments though. My appreciation.

Edited April 29, 2024 by Almaz

[frednork]

When you move the sub it changes how it interacts with the room so will be different.

[almikel]

On 29/04/2024 at 8:58 PM, Almaz said:

I do apologise if my topic was misleading. I’m all good with the toe in on the speakers. Got the image just where I like it,I was only referring to the Sub.

Toe in/out doesn't matter with the sub - the wavelengths are so large it's radiating in all directions.

Moving the sub will make much larger differences.

 

Mike

[LogicprObe]

 

If you want more bass............put it on the coffee table!

[Almaz]

I totally understand what you are saying, and agree.

However, I have a pair or Martin Logan Ethos. Must admit the hardest speaker I’ve come across to get the staging right. Not just the toe in, but every other dimension. When you find that sweet spot, oh my goodness do they sound magical. Apologies I digress. The Marten Logan’s have an active sub underneath their panel. So the subs point where the panels point. I couldn’t see them sounding better any other way.

Edited May 14, 2024 by Almaz

[almikel]

32 minutes ago, Almaz said:

I totally understand what you are saying, and agree.

However, I have a pair or Marten Logan Ethos. Must admit the hardest speaker I’ve come across to get the staging right. Not just the toe in, but every other dimension. When you find that sweet spot, oh my goodness do they sound magical. Apologies I digress. The Marten Logan’s have an active sub underneath their panel. So the subs point where the panels point. I couldn’t see them sounding better any other way.

point the speakers where they need to be for best imaging...

...add a sub if needed for best bass at the listening position

 

Mike

[andyr]

31 minutes ago, Almaz said:

However, I have a pair or Marten Logan Ethos. Must admit the hardest speaker I’ve come across to get the staging right. Not just the toe in, but every other dimension. When you find that sweet spot, oh my goodness do they sound magical. Apologies I digress. The Marten Logan’s have an active sub underneath their panel. So the subs point where the panels point. I couldn’t see them sounding better any other way.

 

I would've thought your ML 'Ethos' do not have a 'sub' underneath each stat panel - they have a woofer under each stat panel.  

 

Subs go flat to down below 20 Hz ... the specs for the Ethos say "effortlessly detailed bass down to 34Hz."!  And that's probably their -3dB point - not flat to 34Hz.

 

Being stats - with their 'head-in-a-vice' sweet spot ... I would suggest that they may well need to be toed in pretty severely?  Like ... pointing towards your ears.  (And as you say ... the subs/woofers point where the panels point.)

 

Have you ever tried toeing them in more - so the perpendiculars cross just in front of you?  Of course, toe-in is a play-off between wide sound-stage and pinpoint imaging!

 

[Almaz]

Andy you know I respect your opinion very much. Stereonet is all the better for members like you. Your knowledge is absolutely next level.

 

One day when you’re in Casino, I’ll cook you and your wife a wonderful lunch and let you have a listen. Your opinion would be very much appreciated, and respected.

 

kindest regards 

John

[Almaz]

Disclaimer….. Granted Martin Logan’s aren’t everyone’s cup of tea.

Edited May 14, 2024 by Almaz

[Keith_W]

5 hours ago, LogicprObe said:

 

If you want more bass............put it on the coffee table!

 

Or go to a fishmonger 

 

4 hours ago, Almaz said:

I totally understand what you are saying, and agree.

However, I have a pair or Marten Logan Ethos. Must admit the hardest speaker I’ve come across to get the staging right. Not just the toe in, but every other dimension. When you find that sweet spot, oh my goodness do they sound magical. Apologies I digress. The Marten Logan’s have an active sub underneath their panel. So the subs point where the panels point. I couldn’t see them sounding better any other way.

 

Dipole speakers like your Martin-Logans have two characteristics. The first is the front wave, which has very narrow directivity. They are thus very sensitive to toe-in and listener position. The second is the back wave, which reflects from your front wall and produces what Linkwitz called an "enveloping soundfield". This is what creates the open sound of the Dipole. You want this to be as delayed and as scattered as possible, meaning that the distance between the speaker and front wall is critical. The amount of toe-in/out will also determine the direction of the reflections. Having the speakers pointing straight ahead will send the reflections straight back at the listener. The more you toe them in, the more the reflections will bounce off the front wall and be directed to the side walls. Needless to say, side wall reflections are also critical to develop the "enveloping soundfield" so speaker placement needs to be as symmetrical as possible. 

 

Martin-Logans are great, that combination of narrow directivity + enveloping soundfield is unlike any monopole speaker you will ever hear. They have an amazing trick of placing musicians with uncanny precision whilst sounding incredibly spacious at the same time.  But they also have problems, i.e. they are even more sensitive than normal to proper placement and toe-in, and they are strictly for one listener only. 

[Almaz]

A wonderful synopsis Kieth. Extremely well written and conveyed.