JBL Owners & Discussion Thread

[TerryO]

21 hours ago, Grizaudio said:

The 4367s are great speakers. 

…..

I will say the 4367s would respond very favourably to +3db bass lift and linearisation to help with low end roll off. They don’t extend or have enough presence down low for all music types. 
 

Interesting, I reckon I must have different 4367’s here than you had heard when it comes to bass, the 4367’s here make the 75” TV hanging on the wall and the Tv cabinet vibrate like crazy when I am playing any bass heavy piece of music at volume, they can and do dig deep when driven by a suitable front end. I have tried them with several different amps since having them here and they do respond accordingly to what is powering them, but that can be said of any speaker.
 

Maybe it’s a case that compared to other JBL’s some might judge them to be bit bass light, but compared to many other speakers with comparable sized drivers the one thing they are not is bass light. If anything from my limited experience with them playing 2-channel I’d say they have a very nice balance.

 

On your first point, I do agree that the 4367’s are great speakers. …
 

cheers,

Terry
 

 

Edited February 4, 2024 by TerryO

[Grizaudio]

This game is very subjective, and the JBL 4367 is definitely a fantastic passive speaker. 

 

The 4367 is not bass light from a dynamic sense, I'm talking about their ability to dig deep and retrieve & reproduce bass energy in the last octave 20-40hz. 

You can see Greg Timbers the JBL designer feels the same, and the speaker measurements don't lie.

 

The 4367 has a typical in room Harman bass rise from about 100hz down, which only lasts to about 50hz in room, before the response rolls away.  The speakers estimated in room response shows -10db at 30hz relative to measured response at 70hz. 

 

If you head on over to Erins review's, you can see the Spinorama (Flat to 60hz - before roll off) and in room response charts show a slightly lower response before rolling away in the same fashion (45-50hz ish). But obviously ones room will greatly change ones experience here. 

 

The dynamics and somewhat typical Harman elevated bass response between 100-50hz make the speaker feel quite bass capable, but if you compare the 4367 to say the M2 you immediately understand the last octave is missing, especially with any meaningful authority. Without stating the obvious, subs would easily fix this. This has very little to do with electronic source/amp choices. 

 

If you compare the 4367 measurements to Erin's measurements on the JBL M2 you can quickly see the M2 digs flat to about 30hz, with a slow roll off to 20hz, in my room (real life) the M2 in standard tune exhibits a typical Harman bass curve from 100hz down, with a flat response extending down to 20hz. 

 

But anyway, the 4367 is an amazing passive speaker, incredibly capable sound producer and a joy to listen to, I would just be linearising its bass from 40-50hz down, as the speaker is capable with available excursion headroom. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 4, 2024 by Grizaudio

[Grizaudio]

7 hours ago, DSharp said:

All going well with import timings, we'll have a pair of 4367s here later this month that belong to a new SNA member. 

The plan is to do a shoot out with the Array 1400s and 4435s before he takes them home interstate.

We can take some pics & do a write up if there is any interest.

He has 4430s and 4349s on the way too but I'm not sure on the timing for our first shootout. 

 

 

 

I really like the Array 1400. I believe Greg Timbers was very fond of this (His) design. A true 3 way with exceptional imaging (vertical waveguide) a great speaker and highly collectable in the future IMHO. 

[Grizaudio]

Anyone looking for Array 1400's? 

Great price. 

[ray4410]

i have actually listened to the Paragons at one of the very early HIFI shows in Melbourne 

[ray4410]

The JBL D44000 Paragon is a one-piece stereo loudspeaker created by JBL that was introduced in 1957 and discontinued in 1983; its production run was the longest of any JBL speaker.[1] At its launch, the Paragon was the most expensive domestic loudspeaker on the market.[2]

Designed by Arnold Wolf from a concept elaborated by Richard Ranger, it is almost 9 feet (2.7 m) long and requires over a hundred-man hours of hand-finishing by a team of dedicated craftsmen.[1] Resembling less a conventional loudspeaker than an elegant sideboard,[3] it is a landmark product for the company that was sought after by the well-heeled and by celebrities.[4] With an estimated total production of about 1,000 units, it is highly sought after by collectors to this day.[1]

History[edit]

The Paragon is a horn-loaded, stereo speaker system within a single 9-foot-wide (2.7 m) housing.[3] It is based on a diffusion principle developed by Richard Ranger as consultant to JBL. Launched in 1957, the Paragon is the world's earliest production stereo loudspeaker for home use,[5] and also the most expensive speaker at the time.[2] As the flagship JBL product, it cost $1,830 (£650) – equivalent to $19,100 in 2022.[3] The "Paragon" is the product with the longest production run of all JBL loudspeakers.[1] It was produced continually until it was discontinued in 1983, when it was replaced by a product line named "Everest".[2][4]

Design[edit]

horizontal cross section of a Paragon unit, with labels showing the individual components

Since even the early days of stereophonic sound, designers were faced with the issue of directionality and the listener who was not located exactly in between the two speaker units. Col. Richard R. Ranger, a pioneer of stereophonic sound in the film industry, conceptualised the solution to the problem of reproducing stereo sound for all and not just the centrally-positioned listener. He devised a loudspeaker system where the sound from the speaker drive units would be reflected against curved surfaces (wood panels) within a cabinet to create a wide, uniform stereo image that would hold stable in any location within the listening room. Ranger elaborates on the JBL-Ranger Radial Refraction system of stereophonic reproduction thus:[1]

... only along this axis of symmetry that the two speakers have consistently equal effect. As soon as the listener moves off axis, the speaker toward which he moves takes predominance. Sound intensity decreases rapidly with distance and the more distant speaker quickly loses out to the nearer.

This can be avoided by projecting the sound from each speaker against a curved surface which acts as a convex lens for the sound and directs it more strongly to the side opposite the speaker than it does to its own side. The convex refractor thus eliminates the sharp axis of symmetry where the slightest movement of the listener is so disturbing.

In the listening area in front of the integrated speaker system, the energy from the two stereo channels builds up a full front of sound which can readily be appreciated by more than one person. So the axis of symmetry no longer exerts its unstable equilibrium on the critical listener.

The term "unstable equilibrium" is not mere whimsy. In stereo reproduction, it is customary for the soloist to appear in the center. Then, certain sections of the accompanying music are positioned right or left; but it is most important that wherever they are, they STAY THERE. Uncertain movement of the apparent sound source gives a very queasy feeling.

Once it became possible to hold monaural sound to the center, it was found that with regular stereo everything fell into its proper place ... A whole curtain of sound was opened up.

Ranger's 9-foot prototype of the product, with plenty of right angles and shiny black Micarta skin, was bulky, imposing, and visually unattractive.[6] Arnold Wolf was called in as the industrial design consultant to this project in early 1957.[1] Wolf, who would later become president and chief executive of JBL, was initially asked to produce a shell version for dealers' shops. Due to transportation and installation constraints, it was decided that the speaker would be split into three components – the left and right channel enclosures, and the curved radiator panel – that could be easily re-assembled with a screwdriver.[6] To support the weight and prevent deforming, the design called for six feet, of which four are height-adjustable.[5] Instead of producing detailed drawings, Wolf worked with scale models.[5] First, he created a 1:4 model in plastic, after which he made others. He ended with a 1:12 scale model that would show how it could be disassembled and reassembled.[5][6] During the design phase, the relationship between Wolf and Ranger became very tense, and the project nearly collapsed.[5] The parties came together over the month of June, and agreed on the definitive production specification for the Paragon. This would be a 2-way design.[5]

Construction[edit]

Frontal aspects of a JBL Paragon

Sculpted leg

Horn (375 Compression driver)

As can be seen from the diagram, the unusual shape of the Paragon made it very complicated to build.[1] Engineering and factory translated the design into one executable on the shop floor. After overcoming the manufacturing challenges posed by the curved refractor panels and the cabinet legs, the speaker entered production in late 1957.[6]

Rear view of a JBL Paragon

075 Ring radiator, from rear

Connector terminals

The Paragon much resembles a sideboard, measures 106 × 33.75 × 24.5 inches (269 × 86 × 62 cm), and weighs 850 pounds (390 kg) according to the product brochure.[3] Standard finishes include korina, birch, mahogany and ebony; premium wood finishes included light and dark walnut, oak, teak, rosewood;[3] a piano lacquer finish would cost extra.[1] A team of six worked on each unit, spending an estimated 112 to 125-man-hours to complete a single unit,[1][5] most of it spent on finishing of the woodwork. After assembly, eight hours would be needed just for sanding down the entire enclosure. Then, several coats of varnish are applied by hand, allowed to dry, and then smoothed down by further rubbing.[1]

 

 

Product revisions[edit]

Product brochure from JBL

The components used in the Paragon went through numerous changes over the years.[1]

1957 – Paragon 44000 launched ("domestic" and "industrial" variants).

Early 1960s – the 150-4C bass driver replaced by the LE15A.

Early 1960s – SE408S power amplifier launched, and available for integration with Paragon as powered speakers (removed by the 1970s).

1979 – use the new drivers employing ferrite magnets instead of Alnico V – the LE15A bass driver replaced by the ferrite LE15H; the 375 midrange driver replaced with the Alnico 376.

1983 – Paragon discontinued.

Reception[edit]

Partick Vercher at L'Audiophile said that the ideal listening position is at least 3 metres away, and 40–50 cm lower than a normal seated position; alternatively the speaker needs to be hoisted up by that amount for a comfortable sound. The sound itself is described as possessing "unshakeable dynamics" when turned up loud, pacey without any sign of fatiguing distortion, and with an impressive separation of instruments.[5] Sonic Flare describes the sound of the Paragon as possessing well-integrated "liquid highs, excellent midrange and bass", and proverbially worth dying for. There are rumours that Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin acquired three Paragons each – one for each of left, center and right channels – with which they used to monitor their recordings from master tapes.[4]

Only about a thousand units were ever produced over its 25-year life. At the height of production, five units left the factory each week.[1] In 2000, units in mint condition would fetch upwards of $20,000 on the second hand market.[1][3][Note 1] It has featured in museum exhibitions, namely one held at Los Angeles County Museum of Art in 2011–12 entitled "California Design, 1930–1965: Living in a Modern Way."[7]

Spin-offs and legacy[edit]

In 1960, JBL launched a smaller and less elaborate 3-way sideboard speaker, measuring 73.7 × 30 × 22.5 inches (187 × 76 × 57 cm), named the "C45 Metregon".[8] Self powered Paragons and Metregons employing the JBL SE-408S stereo amplifier were optional. A miniature version, the C46 Minigon was also available in the early 1960s.[5][9]

Notes[edit]

^ Info: December 2013 sale of JBL Paragon (C44) legendary speaker in very nice condition – Asking Price: USD $26250.00

References[edit]

^ Jump up to:a b c d e f g h i j k l m "Paragon". Audio Heritage.

^ Jump up to:a b c "Whatmough Paragon". Australian Hi-fi – via courtesy link by Whatmough Audio.

^ Jump up to:a b c d e f Everard, Andrew (30 April 2013). "Arnold Wolf, 1927–2013: from JBL's monster Paragon to the best selling speaker of the 1970s", What Hi-Fi?

^ Jump up to:a b c Kaey, Danny (10 September 2006). "Hi-Fi reviews, audio events, show coverage, photos and more JBL Everest DD66000". SonicFlare.

^ Jump up to:a b c d e f g h i Vercher, Patrick (May 1990). "L'enceinte JBL Paragon" Archived 1 February 2014 at the Wayback Machine. L'Audiophile, N°10, pages 26–32 (Courtesy link by Societatea Romana a Radioamatorilor). (in French)

^ Jump up to:a b c d "The Paragon". Audio Heritage.

^ "Arnold Wolf, fomer head of JBL audio, dies" Archived 1 February 2014 at the Wayback Machine. Monterey Herald, 26 April 2013

^ "1960 C45 METREGON". Lansing Heritage.

^ "JBL Paragon". The Vintage Knob. January 2007.

External links[edit]

Product brochure, Lansing Heritage

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Categories: 

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Products introduced in 1957

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[DSharp]

My first impressions are: we have a new leader in the !JBL club.

If you have heard K2 9800s, please post your thoughts...

[DSharp]

I'll leave a couple of hints what the next project is.

 

I can't lift the HF driver on my own & the concrete bases are a hefty 45kg each.

 

.

Edited February 10, 2024 by DSharp

[STROP]

Does JBL make robo-vacuam cleaners now...

[DSharp]

I'm doing little bits and pieces of restoration work on an ongoing basis. I'm certainly no expert but my goal is to repair & refurbish as close to original as I can, to keep these great speakers going so the next generation can hopefully enjoy them as much as we do.

I'd be happy to post pics to foster discussions if people are interesting in making this forum a bit more active.

 

A couple of the projects I have on the go at the moment is to restore a pair of 4410As that I bought in the late 90s from a trading post. Remember the days before Ebay, Gumtree & SNA?

 

These 4410As started life new as background music in a bar in Melbourne. They were with me for a number of years, then have been in a mates timber workshop for many many years. The cabinets & grills were fifthly with fine sawdust.

Sorry I didn't take pics before we blew the bulk of the mess away with compressed air. 

 

The 127H-1 bass driver was re-foamed a couple of years ago, so it doesn't need to be touched.

 

The foam plug behind the 052Ti tweeter was completely melted. 

This plug adsorbs the energy produced by the titanium diaphragm preventing it from bouncing back directly from the magnet structure behind and creating interference/cancelation of the HF being produced out the front.

It is a little bit different setup to the common 035Ti tweeter, 035Ti tweeter replacement foams are readily available online.

 

If your speakers that use either of these drivers, there is a fair chance the HF doesn't sound as good now and when they left the factory if this foam has detoriated.

 

I'm yet to source new foam. I was thinking a trip to Clark Rubber and buying a sheet of 25mm thick foam & cutting out a cylinder with a 15mm leather punch.

I think the foam on the 035Ti actually rests against the back of the diaphragm, with the 052Ti the foam was so melted it was hard to tell, it certainly sits proud of the hole in the magnet structure. 

The 035Ti has a little hard phase plug that sits under the foam that doesn't seems to be there in the 052Ti.

Any thought here are more than welcome...

 

If your protective mesh or titanium dome is dinted, these are two very easy things to fix. The titanium dome in very resilient to being pushed out from behind. I tried it over & over again on a dead 035Ti.

 

 

 

Magnetic structures from the 052Ti on the left, 035Ti on the right. Both with the foams removed.

 

 

 

The rubber o ring has been removed from the tweeter on the left ready to remove the wire mesh & the 4 screws holding the diaphragm in place.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The cabinets are all laminate, so the came up nicely with a good vacuum & wipe down with a wet microfibre.

Broken grill pins have since been removed & set aside for re-gluing.

 

 

 

The grills were encrusted with fine dust. vacuuming & compressed are didn't get them clean.

I recall reading somewhere about washing grills in the bath, so I thought I'd give it a try with some wool mix.

I've got to say, they came up a treat & the water left behind was filthy.

These grills have all plastic frames! I wouldn't recommend for craft-wood frames

 

 

 

Lower grill had already been blasted with compressed air and vacuumed. Top one has just been washed.

 

 

 

Back together just waiting on a tweeter.

Using the correct driver & masking tape on the screwdriver tip when disassembling & reassembling keeps the black screws from being marked

 

 

 

Next project

 

Clean up some old L60Ts that had been sitting in a mates garage.

I don't have drivers or crossovers for these, so I was just treating it a practice for cabinet restoration.

I went over these with the orbital sander & scotch pad. Then puttied up the corner gaps with dark putty.

 

 

 

They then had two coats on JBL oil with a scotch rubdown inbetween coats.

I think they came up really nice and it's given me some confidence to work on other cabinets that have had a life.

I'm also working on some amplifier & speaker stands for Yamaha NS-1000s but we don't talk about them here

 

JBL oil: Three parts boiled linseed oil. One part pure gum turpentine (not household turps). 

 

[DSharp]

I'm learning that almost everything is repairable.

 

A mate called me this week & was going to chuck a pair of L100Ts in the tip. They had been stored in the shed. Cat scratched. Water damaged. Mouse urine....

 

The cabinets are goners but he dropped the drivers off to me today. They will restore back to near mint. Clean up the original cones, they are very tough. New surrounds. New dust caps. Re-glue the spider. It's all fixable.

 

Looks like I have some more 035Ti tweeters to fix too

 

When I get to them on the project list (LOL) I post the progress pics.

 

Alex if you read this I might be giving you a couple of 2214H to repair

 

[kelossus]

Might throw in my latest and ongoing restoration into the mix.

 

Got a lead on a pair of C60 Sovereigns with the big boy load out, 375/075/LE15A/PR15, which had been used in a studio down in Byron for the last 20 odd years. Drivers are all original with the wax seals and in decent enough condition. Unfortunately the cabinets had been painted black and the grilles long gone ( this is most upsetting as the grilles really give the speaker character)

 

Upon demoing the speakers I could hear something was wrong, the horn was running full tilt but everything was working with no scraping etc. Someone had absolutely butchered the crossovers, I don't even want to get into it but they needed a full re-work.

 

I took the speakers home and spent the next few days stripping the paint off. This was incredibly tedious as the moulding on these is intricate creating a lot of nooks and crannies. In a few places the veneer had started to lift but all of this seemed repairable, and it was. Once the cabinets were stripped I took them to my favourite french polisher. Whilst shellac is not an original finish to me it looks the best and is not out of place on a vintage speaker considering it's been around forever.

 

These are pretty much at the assembly stage now and I'll rewire them completely whilst there. Not entirely happy with the baffles and I might have to repaint them.

 

Like with most of my restorations I will sell these at an expected loss. I take things a little far at times and seldom make anything for the time and money invested.

 

 

 

Edited February 11, 2024 by kelossus

[ray4410]

what bonehead would want to paint such an iconic set of speakers as the  C60 Sovereigns
your effort will bring them back to what they deserve the crossovers look great,i am sure that when you have finished they will be a lovely set of sovereigns,have heard unmolested sovereigns as a mate had a mint pair several years ago 
keep us up-to-date with the progress

[Guest]

1 hour ago, kelossus said:

Like with most of my restorations I will sell these at an expected loss. I take things a little far at times and seldom make anything for the time and money invested.

 

 

The term is 'passion projects'! And I for one tip my hat to you and others here that are rescuing and restoring vintage JBL speakers, just like the artisans out there doing the same with classic cars. You're preserving audio history! 

[DSharp]

Hell yes! What a great speaker to restore.

You've done a fantastic job on getting that black paint off. That is a labour of love.

They look pretty close to one of the original colours now.

 

Images below pinched from the web.

The owner made comment country oak and golden oak finishes were available from new. I'd take a guess this is country oak. Lots of other pics online seem to be more golden.

The grills are pretty special.

 

 

[DSharp]

Chris what are your thoughts on spraying vs rolling paint on the baffles?

[ray4410]

1 hour ago, ray4410 said:

what bonehead would want to paint such an iconic set of speakers as the  C60 Sovereigns
your effort will bring them back to what they deserve the crossovers look great,i am sure that when you have finished they will be a lovely set of sovereigns,have heard unmolested sovereigns as a mate had a mint pair several years ago 
keep us up-to-date with the progress

a pic of my mates Sovereigns 

[kelossus]

21 minutes ago, DSharp said:

Chris what are your thoughts on spraying vs rolling paint on the baffles?

 

It depends on the texture of the paint on the baffle.  The bigger 43xx series have somewhat of a mottled texture to the paint. If you have a proper setup to spray them that would be ideal but I haven't invested that far into it. If you don't have to get carried away with sanding them you can keep that texture still. In that case I would just roll them.

 

If it's something like the L series, L150 for example. I'd mask them up and spray them with Rustoleum matte black. They have a flat finish which I can't replicate with a nap roller.

Edited February 12, 2024 by kelossus

[sleach]

An opportunity to compare 2 iconic speakers while still have both in house

 

 The Martion Bullfrog and JBL 1400 array. The Bullfrog needs some tuning in the dsp  crossover, but it hits you with absolute force. The jbl has plenty of bass too, and a bit more refinement. Martion mids and highs a little veiled by comparison.  

[DSharp]

If the sticky tops on your 1400s is putting perspective buyers off, I can find out the number of the guy who wrapped mine for the previous owner in Melbourne. He did a stellar job. 

This seems to happen to all of them, even if not exposed to sunlight. My 1500 Array brand new in the sealed box was sticky on the top & bottom.

Edited February 12, 2024 by DSharp

[sleach]

Thanks, yes that has been mentioned by prospective buyers as a concern.  They aren't super sticky, yet but they are on the way there. I'll see how it goes, but that contact could be very handy thank you 

[Guest]

lol, I don’t think my new JBL’S would be welcome in here

[Xecuter]

22 minutes ago, Sime said:

lol, I don’t think my new JBL’S would be welcome in here

All JBL welcome here!

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Xecuter said:

All JBL welcome here!

I just bought a pair of the New JBL PartyBox ultimates, at 4k a pair, not the cheapest “toy” but they make old 80’s metal sound glorious. While I’m in the process of selling my entire 805D3 system, I’ve had more recent joy with these new speakers than I have had in years with the “better” system. 
lol, I even have my Chord MScaler and Cutest DAC running them, with the node 2i. 
 

Edited February 12, 2024 by Sime

[Bass13]

52 minutes ago, Sime said:

I just bought a pair of the New JBL PartyBox ultimates, at 4k a pair, not the cheapest “toy” but they make old 80’s metal sound glorious. While I’m in the process of selling my entire 805D3 system, I’ve had more recent joy with these new speakers than I have had in years with the “better” system. 
lol, I even have my Chord MScaler and Cutest DAC running them, with the node 2i. 

 

I dare say they would Rock the house for sure (Partybox ultimate's x 2), I only have the Partybox 100's x 2, and I love them myself...

 

Enjoy....