Have speaker set up sorted out.  For my room, tweeter on the outside and speakers tilted back.  Gives a much larger and fuller sound and sound stage.  I think the bass goes down to about 120hz before dipping.  The REL has it covered.  I'm happy with the sound for now.

 

I've even taken the socks off and have the speakers  on their spikes.  Maybe the spikes have improved coherence.  

Edited December 28, 20196 yr by GroovyGuru

Peter will you eventually incorporate the AV subs into the systems or was the thinking that your existing ones would do the job. 

 

They look absolutely glorious by the way. 

2 hours ago, ghost4man said:

Peter will you eventually incorporate the AV subs into the systems or was the thinking that your existing ones would do the job. 

 

They look absolutely glorious by the way. 

I don't think I'll need AV subs.  REL do a great job so far. 

On 18/12/2019 at 12:29 PM, Grant Slack said:

I can only think it would be because you have moved the Trio bass units about a foot outwards, which has changed their room modes enough to be noticeable.

 

cheers

Grant

You were only part right about the room nodes.  But it was not the speaker placement, it was the seat placement which also needed tweaking.  I moved the seat a couple of inches back to what I think is the 1/9 room node and everything locked into position with bass fully functional. In set up, inches count. 

 

The manual says 40hrs of burn in.  Rubbish.  I think closer to 200 hrs.  The sound is way better than first installed.

Edited January 11, 20206 yr by GroovyGuru

So @GroovyGuru, now you are selling your RELs ... what are you replacing them with?

 

Andy

 

On 22/02/2020 at 10:59 PM, andyr said:

So @GroovyGuru, now you are selling your RELs ... what are you replacing them with?

 

Andy

 

They have been replaced by AV 231 woofer.  AV woofer is integral to purchase of Trio I've learned.  The woofer crosses over at 250hz because the Trio does not go to 100hz as claimed in the specs.   The 231 can produce a lot of good tuneful bass up into the low mids but does not go as low as the REL IMO.  I'll be doing some experiments with speaker jumper cables to see what effect that will have on sound improvement.  This means speaker cables for woofer, mid and tweeter.  Should be big change.   

Yes the sub231 is a integral part of the system.

Maybe keep the REL's for the lower frequencies. I doubt the sub231 woofer will do as well as a dedicated subwoofer - but it should hold its own.

Might be worth measuring the room after things settle and identify best locations for the REL's. Or getting a pro to measure and confirm placement - won't cost much compared to the total cost of your gear. And will save your back from moving the subs around.

 

For Duo's, most guys/girls connect directly to the mid range woofer and then to the HF horn and Sub225 - all at the same terminal.

I think with the trio the main connection is already on the big horn right - then through the CDC network - then to the other drivers. So the duo method might not apply and testing is needed or ask the other trio users online for best method.

 

For speaker cables I've tried Wireworld various, Nirvana SX, and Goertz Mi2 Veracity.

Stock jumper cables - which are silver over copper - are ok - but not great.

Internally the same silver over copper cable is used from the WBT connectors to the drivers.

 

These days I run custom lengths of the Goertz Mi2 Veracity on my Duos. Very fast cable. Not expensive so good bang for buck.

My lengths are 8 meters and then .75m and 1m)

I terminate with WBT AG bananas and spades. I think I have 20 AG WBTs in all. Crazy I know.

For your trio it would probably be 24.

 

Did you get your sub231 in red as well?

Should look stunning.

I'd recommend some Herbies giant gliders under the spikes. Probably the best bang for buck option as well. Big increase in performance.

GPA, Harmonix, Nordost, etc are all going to cost around 8k in your config. $ ratio just not good.

 

 

 

Also:  Sub231 performance will probably be enhanced with fuse changes. This was the case with my Sub225 testing.

If it is the same as the Sub225 - there will be 3 fuses for each sub.

Changing the fuse near the IEC connector will yield a tighter punch and more bass energy.

I have not changed the inner two yet - but expect it will also improve performance.

 

I have used SR black fuses for this. Outer one is slow blow - get slightly higher fuse amp rating than stock as I've blown a pair of fuses already.

Inner fuses are fast blow. I might get to them one day but 6 fuses starts to get expensive.

 

Better power cables also improved performance on the Sub225.

 

Good luck man

One more thing - hang in there Peter.

I know exactly how you feel right now. Like exactly.

 

Next thing you are going to buy is longer power cables, mono 3.5mm cables for remote on, mono signal splitters for remote on, longer speaker cables, banana/spade connectors, cable lifters, new subwoofer cables, subwoofer isolators, etc.

 

It's going to be a long road.

But when you get those horns in the right configuration - it will all be worth it.

 

If you want to find a roll of Goertz Mi2 - there is a roll for sale in Singapore right now. I bought one of the rolls from that company and they still have one left. Not expensive.

Requires some DIY but worth it.

 

Long ago I was going to go Silversmith speaker cables but in the end could not justify the cost. They are rated as one of the best in the forums. I've spoken to the guy who makes the cables. He knows his stuff. Military background. Expensive cable but high on my list of cables to get to pair with the horns.

 

Silver Goertz was another option in the M1 size and a used pair of Valhalla cables.

 

The other budget speaker cable that gets a good reviews is the Deuland stuff - can't remeber if 12g or 16a.

 

For the time being Goertz worked best for me - with custom runs - and good $ to performance ratio.

 

 

Edited March 3, 20206 yr by haygeebaby

Are these like your Trio's ?

 

On 03/03/2020 at 10:43 PM, haygeebaby said:

 

Also:  Sub231 performance will probably be enhanced with fuse changes. This was the case with my Sub225 testing.

If it is the same as the Sub225 - there will be 3 fuses for each sub.

Changing the fuse near the IEC connector will yield a tighter punch and more bass energy.

I have not changed the inner two yet - but expect it will also improve performance.

 

I have used SR black fuses for this. Outer one is slow blow - get slightly higher fuse amp rating than stock as I've blown a pair of fuses already.

Inner fuses are fast blow. I might get to them one day but 6 fuses starts to get expensive.

 

Better power cables also improved performance on the Sub225.

 

Good luck man

I’ve got a sub-225 that’s not powering up so will be getting inside it today (IEC fuses are fine). 
 

Any recommendations on the inner fuses?

sub 231s set up.  They are set up as woofers.  I'll be keeping the REL 212s..  Switching the RELs off results in the arse dropping out of the sound. 

 

I've already blown three 3.15A IEC fuses.  I suspect that low rating fuse is to protect the inner fuses.  I'm reluctant to put on custom fuses until I've settled it all down.   The sound gets more beautiful everyday.  Still needs more burning in. 

 

Custom pwr cords and speaker jumper cables are essential.  The Trio is too high res to use Jaycar cords.  The factory jumper cables made my ears cringe.  I learned a lot about components while setting these up. 

 

On 11/12/2019 at 11:28 AM, Bunno77 said:

Very nice.

Do you need Avantgarde's own subs to fill the gap? 

 

5 minutes ago, GroovyGuru said:

sub 231s set up.  They are set up as woofers.  I'll be keeping the REL 212s..  Switching the RELs off results in the arse dropping out of the sound. 

 

I've already blown three 3.15A IEC fuses.  I suspect that low rating fuse is to protect the inner fuses.  I'm reluctant to put on custom fuses until I've settled it all down.   The sound gets more beautiful everyday.  Still needs more burning in. 

 

Custom pwr cords and speaker jumper cables are essential.  The Trio is too high res to use Jaycar cords.  The factory jumper cables made my ears cringe.  I learned a lot about components while setting these up. 

 

looks good

 

Groovy gear Groovy.

You could buy a bloody new Porsche with that as well - even a small house and some land probably.

 

Agree with burn-in. You've probably got 600 hours of burn in time to get the real sound.

The two amps are going to take that long. And all the drivers, subs included, need time and sound pushed through them.

So I'd would also wait a while before tweaking and changing other components.

 

I initially went with the same rated fuses for the sub225. And they blew within a week. I think I went to 4amp and they have been fine every since. Sad to see a couple hundred dollars in fuses just vanish into thin air.

 

The stock jumper cables are good cables. They are silver over copper.

Not bad by any stretch from opinions formed from my fiddling and testing over the last 3 years.

I trust in Avantagarde's team and in their design and choice of materials. Very high quality product. And a price to match too.

 

Be aware that inside those round canisters are the same cables. The WBT connectors use the same cable to connect the the drivers via a shoe/spade connectors. I have not done this myself, but it is said that if you directly solder them to the drivers there is some gain to be had.

 

If your ears are cringing - I would say it is not the jumper cables. More likely to be equipment partnering.

I remember a long time ago I tested the ARC CD6 on my Quad ESL57. I loved the sound that came from the source and speaker - they had great synergy.

Later on I used the Esoteric K03x on the Duo Omegas and Quads 57 and also loved the sound.

 

Then early last year I had the chance to test a few digital sources - was getting bored. So I ran another CD6 through the Duo Omegas and it was a very harsh sound. Very bad synergy. I also tried some PS Audio gear and Chord gear during testing. They where not harsh in any way.

 

In hindsight it makes sense now - as the highs are completely gone on the ESL57 - but with the horns everything is heard.

 

It could also be room modes or reflections that are giving you sound issues as well. But I do not think it is because of the jumper cables - in my experience anyway.

 

Maybe wait for the burn in period to end and then try a different amp and see.

I'm almost certain it isn't the PH8 or Ref6 as I have had the PH9 in my system and also the Ref6.

You might want to look into signal grounding to reduce harshness from a digital source. Good gains to be had here.

Those are the initial things I would look at.

 

The sound should still be very decent with the Sub231. Maybe you need to play with placement a little. And listening position.

Getting some room measurements is really worth it.

 

Biggest gain in sound performance that I have had - was using Furutech GTX-D Rhodium NCF receptacles. Made a huge difference. Probably the no.1 tweak along with room and seating tweaks.

Those NCF products really work in my experience.

Spike decoupling under the sub231 should make the bass tighter and sharper, and also make the sound clearer under the horns.

Use XRL cables where you can - this will reduce some hum that the speakers still transmit because they are so efficient.

I'm using full Kimber Select loom - 1036, 1136, and 1236 at the back. Very enjoyable in the current setup.

Full Shunyata Triton and Alpha power cables. Also very good synergy in the current setup.

 

Probably too hard to do now - but I would move your gear and racks to the side of the room. That area where your gear/racks are now - where most people will also place - is a very noisy area in the room. And moving to the side of the room can bring some benefits to sound as well. In its place I would place a diffuser - but each room is different so you need to test.

 

 

 

 

Sub 255 not powering up - yeah check the two internal fuses.

If not that then could be a good time to contact your local dealer who will be able to contact Avantgarde in Germany for support.

Armin himself will probably get back to you with the solution. He's a nice guy.

 

Their support is very good form my experience. If your remote on/off stops working - I know the fix will be the white rectangular relay.

My support team in Singapore and Armin informed me of the fault cause and the required repair. The item was a $5 fix and can be easily purchased online.

 

When you open the sub225 and remove the plate amp - be ready to find disintegrates black foam. This also is an easy fix but messy. Contact me if you find this and need info.

Good luck.

 

Thanks @haygeebaby

 

As to cables, I agree that the Avantgarde standard cabling is good, and I’ve been through oodles of different cables. 
 

Despite often preferring silver, I settled on Jorma Statement from amp to speakers and just use the Avantgarde cables to jumper to the subs.

 

I have also found Shunyata power cables to play very nicely in my setup, and big improvements from an independent power circuit, switchless points and JPS Labs in wall cable from the switchboard. DC blocking is also important in my system (we have solar panels). 
 

I have also had my room treated. The engineer found it challenging and the speakers responded to surprisingly small voicing changes. 
 

@GroovyGuru If you haven’t already, I’d definitely get an acoustic engineer with some specialisation in voicing speakers to run some tests and help with placement and potentially some treatments. 
 

if you guys are ever in Sydney look me up. 

On 31/03/2020 at 4:22 AM, alistairm said:

Thanks @haygeebaby

 

As to cables, I agree that the Avantgarde standard cabling is good, and I’ve been through oodles of different cables. 
 

Despite often preferring silver, I settled on Jorma Statement from amp to speakers and just use the Avantgarde cables to jumper to the subs.

 

I have also found Shunyata power cables to play very nicely in my setup, and big improvements from an independent power circuit, switchless points and JPS Labs in wall cable from the switchboard. DC blocking is also important in my system (we have solar panels). 
 

I have also had my room treated. The engineer found it challenging and the speakers responded to surprisingly small voicing changes. 
 

@GroovyGuru If you haven’t already, I’d definitely get an acoustic engineer with some specialisation in voicing speakers to run some tests and help with placement and potentially some treatments. 
 

if you guys are ever in Sydney look me up. 

Bill Mclean measured my room when he set up the MG20.7.  The room measured close enough to flat.  Nothing wrong with the room.  The system sounds beautiful.  Yeah, I've heard the speakers with silver jumper cables, I preferred the cheaper copper model.  I also preferred the cheaper pwr cords on the woofers.  More money does not always get you better sound.   

Edited April 1, 20205 yr by GroovyGuru

On 30/03/2020 at 2:03 PM, haygeebaby said:

 

Groovy gear Groovy.

You could buy a bloody new Porsche with that as well - even a small house and some land probably.

 

Agree with burn-in. You've probably got 600 hours of burn in time to get the real sound.

The two amps are going to take that long. And all the drivers, subs included, need time and sound pushed through them.

So I'd would also wait a while before tweaking and changing other components.

 

I initially went with the same rated fuses for the sub225. And they blew within a week. I think I went to 4amp and they have been fine every since. Sad to see a couple hundred dollars in fuses just vanish into thin air.

 

The stock jumper cables are good cables. They are silver over copper.

Not bad by any stretch from opinions formed from my fiddling and testing over the last 3 years.

I trust in Avantagarde's team and in their design and choice of materials. Very high quality product. And a price to match too.

 

Be aware that inside those round canisters are the same cables. The WBT connectors use the same cable to connect the the drivers via a shoe/spade connectors. I have not done this myself, but it is said that if you directly solder them to the drivers there is some gain to be had.

 

If your ears are cringing - I would say it is not the jumper cables. More likely to be equipment partnering.

I remember a long time ago I tested the ARC CD6 on my Quad ESL57. I loved the sound that came from the source and speaker - they had great synergy.

Later on I used the Esoteric K03x on the Duo Omegas and Quads 57 and also loved the sound.

 

Then early last year I had the chance to test a few digital sources - was getting bored. So I ran another CD6 through the Duo Omegas and it was a very harsh sound. Very bad synergy. I also tried some PS Audio gear and Chord gear during testing. They where not harsh in any way.

 

In hindsight it makes sense now - as the highs are completely gone on the ESL57 - but with the horns everything is heard.

 

It could also be room modes or reflections that are giving you sound issues as well. But I do not think it is because of the jumper cables - in my experience anyway.

 

Maybe wait for the burn in period to end and then try a different amp and see.

I'm almost certain it isn't the PH8 or Ref6 as I have had the PH9 in my system and also the Ref6.

You might want to look into signal grounding to reduce harshness from a digital source. Good gains to be had here.

Those are the initial things I would look at.

 

The sound should still be very decent with the Sub231. Maybe you need to play with placement a little. And listening position.

Getting some room measurements is really worth it.

 

Biggest gain in sound performance that I have had - was using Furutech GTX-D Rhodium NCF receptacles. Made a huge difference. Probably the no.1 tweak along with room and seating tweaks.

Those NCF products really work in my experience.

Spike decoupling under the sub231 should make the bass tighter and sharper, and also make the sound clearer under the horns.

Use XRL cables where you can - this will reduce some hum that the speakers still transmit because they are so efficient.

I'm using full Kimber Select loom - 1036, 1136, and 1236 at the back. Very enjoyable in the current setup.

Full Shunyata Triton and Alpha power cables. Also very good synergy in the current setup.

 

Probably too hard to do now - but I would move your gear and racks to the side of the room. That area where your gear/racks are now - where most people will also place - is a very noisy area in the room. And moving to the side of the room can bring some benefits to sound as well. In its place I would place a diffuser - but each room is different so you need to test.

 

 

 

 

I think you are reading more into my post than what I said.  I said the sound is beautiful but still needs more burning in.  My room and system ain't set up pretty, but it is set up good, with 4 dedicated circuits.  

Why four dedicated circuits (assuming for the one system)? I would have thought that had more potential to cause a ground loop. I can't see a need for this with your equipment.

 

I have one dedicated circuit, and later added another point in the room for a projector by tapping into an existing circuit in an adjacent room (not the dedicated room circuit). It created massive probs when using the AV and 2-Ch system as one. Had sparky put it onto the dedicated circuit and all was resolved.

3 hours ago, GroovyGuru said:

Bill Mclean measured my room when he set up the MG20.7.  The room measured close enough to flat. 

Measured closed to flat with the MG20.7. Could measure entirely different with this setup though.

As I learned through the course of tweaking my room, "for every action, there's a reaction".

7 hours ago, GroovyGuru said:

I think you are reading more into my post than what I said.  I said the sound is beautiful but still needs more burning in.  My room and system ain't set up pretty, but it is set up good, with 4 dedicated circuits.  

Good luck with you system.

No one here is saying it doesn't sound beautiful or is not a good setup.

We are just providing helpful feedback to some of your comments on your hifi journey.

Edited April 1, 20205 yr by haygeebaby

2 hours ago, Marc said:

Why four dedicated circuits (assuming for the one system)? I would have thought that had more potential to cause a ground loop. I can't see a need for this with your equipment.

 

I have one dedicated circuit, and later added another point in the room for a projector by tapping into an existing circuit in an adjacent room (not the dedicated room circuit). It created massive probs when using the AV and 2-Ch system as one. Had sparky put it onto the dedicated circuit and all was resolved.

I had 3 circuits done 20yrs ago as recommended by Mike Kontor.  But foolishly I did one 20A circuit with only 2 sockets.  I should have made all 20A because I ran out of 20A sockets for my set up.  I had a sparky come round and he had to run a separate electrical conduit for a second 20A circuit.  I've never had any ground loop problems.  I think if you like the sound of your system/room leave it.  A consultant from a top retailer heard my room and thought it was the best room he had heard in all his years of installing gear.  He suggested i should leave it as is.   I do use RoomTunes to good effect.  

FYI:  i upgraded from Magneplanar 20.7.  That speaker needed at least 15hrs on the tweeter to settle, then 200hrs to burn in the speaker.  The tweeter was awful out of the box and with the metal clips they are shipped with.  After I optmised them with jumper cables and fuses (SR Red on bass/midrange and top of the range Telos on tweeters) they produce one of the best treble/midrange I've heard. 

 

When I upgraded to AV I was expecting to get treble/midrange of at least that quality out of the box because it is meant to be an upgrade and AV said only 40hrs burn in required.  The Trio had a high bar to get over.  I had to spend time and effort to optimise the Trio to a point where it is better in the treble/midrange than the 20.7.   

 

Yes i was initially disappointed with the Trio because it did not come out of the box sounding like a MG 20.7 beater.  But it does have a very low noise floor with gave it a lot of potential, that's why I bought it.  I have now optimised it to achieve the potential, except for the fuses.   

 

As far as fuses go, I think the top range Telos gives the SR black a good run at a much lower price.  I bought the SR black because they were on special making the price differential minimal. 

Edited April 1, 20205 yr by GroovyGuru

10 hours ago, haygeebaby said:

Good luck with you system.

No one here is saying it doesn't sound beautiful or is not a good setup.

We are just providing helpful feedback to some of your comments on your hifi journey.

Thanks.  I did think of going to higher value fuses, maybe up to 3.5A.  I'm nervous about going to 4A it seems too large a jump.  

 

You did question what I heard when I improved the sound by changing the jumper cables.  "If your ears are cringing - I would say it is not the jumper cables. More likely to be equipment partnering."  Improving sound by changing jumper cables is a lot cheaper than changing components.  I did audition an expensive  silver/copper jumper cable.  It was  way better than the AV cable, but I preferred the cheaper all copper cable I also auditioned.   The copper cable simply had better color depth and tone detail.  The silver cable had better imaging and transients. 

 

I auditioned two silver/copper power cords, but I preferred the cheaper model for the same reason I preferred the copper jumper cable.  My speaker cable is the Audioquest Redwood.  It is much better than their lower silver/copper models.  I don't have anything against silver cables, but they are not a panacea and must be treated on merit.          

 

How do you find the Sub231 Groovy?

What's the auto calibration like to use? Complicated?

How do you connect it to the speakers? Do you run XLR from out2  on the Ref6 to the plate amp or daisy chain from speaker terminal?

 

Man I can't get over the size of your setup. You need a BIG room. How big is your room anyway?

 

How about the 212SE - are you using XLR or REL low level method to connect?

Is the REF6 balanced/differential low level connection?

 

What cross over settings are you using for the Sub231 and the 212SE?

 

Impressive setup bro - looking forward to hearing more from your future developments.

 

 

Edited April 4, 20205 yr by haygeebaby

6 hours ago, haygeebaby said:

 

How do you find the Sub231 Groovy?

What's the auto calibration like to use? Complicated?

How do you connect it to the speakers? Do you run XLR from out2  on the Ref6 to the plate amp or daisy chain from speaker terminal?

 

Man I can't get over the size of your setup. You need a BIG room. How big is your room anyway?

 

How about the 212SE - are you using XLR or REL low level method to connect?

Is the REF6 balanced/differential low level connection?

 

What cross over settings are you using for the Sub231 and the 212SE?

 

Impressive setup bro - looking forward to hearing more from your future developments.

 

 

My Sub231 is an analogue version.  No digital jiggery pokerey.  Crossover is at about 300hz.  I run a jumper cable off the Trio.  

 

Yeah, room is big.  Two storey ceilng.  8.5mts by about 15mts, open plan.  Large enough to hold a 20hz tone.  

 

The REL crossover is at about 35hz.  I tried it at 30hz but it felt like there was a suckout.