Samsung Ps50b850 Vs Panasonic Viera Th-p50v10a

[Godzilla]

From this Cnet review of the V10;

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/pan...7-33490589.html

Forget about specs and reviews, people should go look for themselves and make their own assessment.

Owen...I re-read my post and realized it's not how I meant to say it. I should have said...Owen's standards are fairly high so the best is to judge for yourself (Belgavion).

Cheers

[rabbitoh1]

From this Cnet review of the V10;

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/pan...7-33490589.html

“The V10 did not preserve black levels in the bright light as well as any of the other non-Panasonic displays.”

Name another display of any type from any major manufacturer that has worse blacks than the Panasonic Plasmas in a bright environment, I can’t think of one. If that does not constitute “very poor” performance I don’t know what does mate.

Panasonic don’t seem to have made any advances in screen filtering in three years or more.

If you want to see what the black level is like in a bright environment just turn the TV off and compare the screen to the black bezel, blind Freddy could see that the Panasonic screens are anything but black. The low end Samsungs are about the same, the mid range B650 is better, but the top end B850 is WAY better again, simply no comparison.

Remember the blacks don’t get better when the TV is turned on but with bright content on screen your eyes won’t be able to see the black level.

Forget about specs and reviews, people should go look for themselves and make their own assessment.

Thanks Owen. To be fair though, the Samsung compared against the V10 in that same paragraph

'Bright lighting: The V10 and G10 share the same antireflective screen. It did a solid job attenuating ambient light and glare in our bright room--not quite as good as the Pioneer or Sony, but clearly better than the highly reflective Samsung.'

I guess the moral of the story is both the Samsung and Panasonic panels have certain strengths and weaknesses still.

[Owen]

Thanks Owen. To be fair though, the Samsung compared against the V10 in that same paragraph

'Bright lighting: The V10 and G10 share the same antireflective screen. It did a solid job attenuating ambient light and glare in our bright room--not quite as good as the Pioneer or Sony, but clearly better than the highly reflective Samsung.'

I guess the moral of the story is both the Samsung and Panasonic panels have certain strengths and weaknesses still.

Yes that’s true but reflections due to a high gloss screen surface and light absorption (black level) are completely different issues.

If you don’t have a light source directly behind your seating position reflections are normally not a problem.

Matt anti reflective screen surfaces have their own disadvantages, they still reflect light but in a diffused way which puts a haze over the image and degrades perceived black level and image depth.

Hands up the people who prefer the look of high gloss photo prints compared to the matt variety?

My Sony has an anti reflective screen and I don’t like it, my previous main TV had a full gloss screen and I much prefer it. I don’t ever want an anti reflective screen again if I can avoid it as I don’t have reflection issues.

[dlb99]

I guess the moral of the story is both the Samsung and Panasonic panels have certain strengths and weaknesses still.

We have a winner, ding ding ding.

The truth be spoketh indeedeth.

I was at Myer gawking at a 50inch Samsung B650 and a 50inch Panasonic G10 (right next to each other). Mid level lighting. You know what. The two displays look more similar than dissimilar (in a Falcon vs Commodore kind of way).

The same will probably be true for the B850 vs V10. Some will favour the Samsung, some the Panasonic.

Dennis.

[dlb99]

From this Cnet review of the V10;

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/pan...7-33490589.html

“The V10 did not preserve black levels in the bright light as well as any of the other non-Panasonic displays.”

Name another display of any type from any major manufacturer that has worse blacks than the Panasonic Plasmas in a bright environment, I can’t think of one. If that does not constitute “very poor” performance I don’t know what does mate.

Panasonic don’t seem to have made any advances in screen filtering in three years or more.

I'm curious Owen, is the majority of your viewing in a bright environment?

Mine most definately is not.

Let's see, I work during daylight hours (man's got to earn a living).

My only chance to watch some TV is during the evening and night......in which case I use soft, subdued bias lighting.

I'd expect most folk (apart from some weekend viewing) to watch their flat panels at those same times.

Who watches TV in bright...BRIGHT environment?

Sure, Panasonic can do better filter wise no doubt.

But, lets be realistic, most folk don't watch their TV in a JB-HiFi bright environment.

Dennis.

[belgavion]

Owen...I re-read my post and realized it's not how I meant to say it. I should have said...Owen's standards are fairly high so the best is to judge for yourself (Belgavion).

Cheers

Whenever I've looked at a G10 in a store environment the blacks always look very washed out and grey. I've assumed this is just the dynamic settings and I've trusted reviews and forum comments that there is no problems viewing in a dark room. Sure, the blacks will be nowhere near that of a Kuro, but I'm led to believe average joe is going to be happy with watching a G10 or V10 in a dark environment and not be distracted by the black levels.

I'm assuming that when looking at a V10 in store and checking the THX mode things will look pretty dim and bland, yet the Sammy LED next to it will probably look great.

I don't really have a point to make - just commenting that I've been less than impressed with any G10 I've seen in store running any source material and I just have to trust that even if the V10 looks ordinary it'll only really shine once it is home and properly set up.

I appreciate all of Owen's insight, but I've grown to believe that his opinion of acceptable black levels are on another level far above most of us. If he saw the blacks on the Teac LCD I've been watching for 3 years he'd probably laugh for a week

Edited August 21, 2009 by belgavion

[dlb99]

I don't really have a point to make - just commenting that I've been less than impressed with any G10 I've seen in store running any source material and I just have to trust that even if the V10 looks ordinary it'll only really shine once it is home and properly set up

Most store mode Panasonics will be running in dynamic mode (which is crappy).

If you fiddled the G10 at a store to run in Cinema or Normal mode AND you still don't like the look, then honestly it won't be the display for you.

I doubt the Panasonics will "shine" as you wish them to "shine". Remember, they are mid-range displays. If you can afford it (and they are still available) the Pioneers would be more up your alley.

Dennis.

[genkifd]

so how is the g10 / V10 performance in the dark????

from my experiences if the tv isnt particularly black in a brightly lit room it aint going to be much better to total darkness..... generally worse...

[dlb99]

so how is the g10 / V10 performance in the dark????

from my experiences if the tv isnt particularly black in a brightly lit room it aint going to be much better to total darkness..... generally worse...

The G10 renders a reasonably nice dark shade of black (kind of a deep deep grey really).

The Panasonic black would be deeper and darker than most flat panels available (not counting the Pioneer).

But, it is not true black.

Flat panels (including the surperior Pioneer) do not do proper black (e.g. a night time scene).

It's a limitation of current technology.

The Pioneers got the closest (they are about 10 times better than the Panasonic, 0.003 cd/m2 vs 0.03 cd/m2).

My suggestion would be to lower expectations since current panels still are kind of greyish.

Note, I enjoy my greyish G10 very much (live with the limitation).

Dennis.

[Godzilla]

Note, I enjoy my greyish G10 very much (live with the limitation).

Dennis.

+1

[Black Dawg Down]

If you don’t have a light source directly behind your seating position reflections are normally not a problem.

Matt anti reflective screen surfaces have their own disadvantages, they still reflect light but in a diffused way which puts a haze over the image and degrades perceived black level and image depth.

Hands up the people who prefer the look of high gloss photo prints compared to the matt variety?

Well I live in a unit and my balcony faces directly another balcony with only about 5 metres of separation. Needless to say there is not much light coming through my living room.

Yet I found it extremely distracting that my plasma has a reflective screen. The window faces the side of the tv but this is pointless since not much light comes through it anyway.

I'm glad I now have an LCD with matte screen. You're probably right in saying it produces some haze, but with LCD it helps 'soften' the image so it's not super sharp.

[genkifd]

The Pioneers got the closest (they are about 10 times better than the Panasonic, 0.003 cd/m2 vs 0.03 cd/m2).

are these figures the same as fL used in many magazines????

as if they are the pioneer pro is 0.001......

[complectus]

are these figures the same as fL used in many magazines????

No.

Look up "candela per square metre" & "foot-lambert" on wikipedia for the difference.

[genkifd]

No.

Look up "candela per square metre" & "foot-lambert" on wikipedia for the difference.

basically from what i read fL 0.001 = 0.003 cd/m2

[Owen]

I was at Myer gawking at a 50inch Samsung B650 and a 50inch Panasonic G10 (right next to each other). Mid level lighting. You know what. The two displays look more similar than dissimilar (in a Falcon vs Commodore kind of way).

With some attention to calibration most people won’t see a significant difference between an LG and a G9 Kuro, which is why Pioneer could not survive in the market. The G10/V10 and B550/650 are even more similar for HD content (not for SD tough).

On forums like this we tend to make a big deal out of relatively minor differences that would go unnoticed by the majority of consumers, however if you know what to look for there definitely are significant differences.

The same will probably be true for the B850 vs V10. Some will favour the Samsung, some the Panasonic.

The G10 and V10 are effectively the same when it comes to screen filtering and image quality, however the 850 Samsung is in a different world to the 550 or even the 650, the screen filter on the 850 is amazingly more effective, no contest what so ever. Only recently I got to see the full Samsung range of Plasmas side by side under very bright lighting, the 4 and 5 series looked much the same, the 6 series did not far well in this situation and was little different to the 4 and 5 series for perceived black level (although it does under less extreme conditions), the all looked greenish grey. The 8 series was a stand out and looked very dark, almost black, I very much doubt that a Kuro would be any darker in the circumstances.

Edited August 21, 2009 by Owen

[Owen]

so how is the g10 / V10 performance in the dark????

from my experiences if the tv isnt particularly black in a brightly lit room it aint going to be much better to total darkness..... generally worse...

The Panasonics and 450/550 Samsungs are very intolerant of ambient light, especially light falling directly on the screen, they look much better in a dim environment. It does not take much light for the lower black level of the Panasonics to be degraded to the point where it is worse than an 850 Samsung.

Total darkness is another story, the Panasonics have a lower idle luminance than the Samsungs which gives them a deeper black in a very dim or dark environment, however under such conditions they definitely don’t look black, just a darker shade of grey than the Samsungs.

If you want to view in the dark the Kuro’s are the only real option, both the Panasonics and Samsungs need bias lighting to overcome their relatively high idle luminance and help the perception of black.

For the Panasonics and low end Samsungs this bias lighting should be organized so that as little light as possible falls directly on the screen, the 850 Samsung does not have that limitation.

Edited August 21, 2009 by Owen

[Owen]

I'm curious Owen, is the majority of your viewing in a bright environment?

Mine most definately is not.

Let's see, I work during daylight hours (man's got to earn a living).

My only chance to watch some TV is during the evening and night......in which case I use soft, subdued bias lighting.

I'd expect most folk (apart from some weekend viewing) to watch their flat panels at those same times.

Who watches TV in bright...BRIGHT environment?

Sure, Panasonic can do better filter wise no doubt.

But, lets be realistic, most folk don't watch their TV in a JB-HiFi bright environment.

Dennis.

My main display is only ever viewed under subdued lighting night or day, it is never viewed in the dark because the black level is just not good enough, even though it’s about the same as a G8 Kuro, (at least twice as dark as a G10/V10 Panasonic).

The second TV is viewed under varying conditions from dim the bright.

The third TV (not yet purchased) will need to operate in conditions ranging from dim to very bright.

If the majority of people viewed their TV’s only in dim or dark environments LCD’s would be a total failure in the market, the dissatisfaction rate would be very high.

You don’t need a very bright environment for the Panasonics black level and contrast to be significantly degraded; even modest amounts on light falling directly on the screen will be enough to give the better Samsungs the edge.

Reviews almost never take real life viewing into consideration when discussing black level, they do their subjective evaluations in the dark and take measurements with a sensor directly attached to the screen in a dark environment, unfortunately this does not take into consideration the effect of ambient lighting on perceived black level. So unless you only view in the dark take the findings of reviews with a grain of salt, they are not going to give you the full picture.

Edited August 22, 2009 by Owen

[genkifd]

The Panasonics and 450/550 Samsungs are very intolerant of ambient light, especially light falling directly on the screen, they look much better in a dim environment. It does not take much light for the lower black level of the Panasonics to be degraded to the point where it is worse than an 850 Samsung.

Total darkness is another story, the Panasonics have a lower idle luminance than the Samsungs which gives them a deeper black in a very dim or dark environment, however under such conditions they definitely don’t look black, just a darker shade of grey than the Samsungs.

If you want to view in the dark the Kuro’s are the only real option, both the Panasonics and Samsungs need bias lighting to overcome their relatively high idle luminance and help the perception of black.

For the Panasonics and low end Samsungs this bias lighting should be organized so that as little light as possible falls directly on the screen, the 850 Samsung does not have that limitation.

i noticed this when i went to my cousins place last night - watching his pioneer C509 - a brightly lit toom the tv blacks wasnt so great but in the dark the greys didnt get that much worse like lcds do.... however good lcd can be very close to perfect black during the day while plasmas are very dark grey (C509 anyway).

[dvdnovice]

i noticed this when i went to my cousins place last night - watching his pioneer C509 - a brightly lit toom the tv blacks wasnt so great but in the dark the greys didnt get that much worse like lcds do.... however good lcd can be very close to perfect black during the day while plasmas are very dark grey (C509 anyway).

Yesterday I watched spiderman 3 being played (via composite input) from a DVD player (Samsung), on a V10 and a B650 (alas not a B850) simultaneously at Myer. The blacks were better on the B650, there was loss of fine detail on the V10 and there was a marked "judder" with the V10 during the scrolling credits. I'm not sure if this was a set-up problem but Owen and others have mentioned a problem with the handling of SD material by the panasonics. From the above experience, even to the untrained eye, this is a real problem if one already has a reasonable DVD collection.

Edited August 31, 2009 by dvdnovice

[GP11]

I'm hoping to get some User/Owner comments as to the Samsung Ps50b850 Vs Panasonic Viera Th-p50v10a

I'm stuck between these two, although the extra dollars is a factor in reaching for the B850.

Could any owners comment on these or other factors.

Samsung Ps50b850

a/ Buzzing ( this does seem to be wide spread, although probably a low % of overall sales)

b/ Heat from panel ( front and rear)

c/ Supposedly poor internal speakers

BTW.. I love the PQ of this machine.. awesome!!!!

Panasonic Viera Th-p50v10a

a/ Problems with SD /Foxtel / dvd (poor de-interlacing I believe is the term)

b/ Duller PQ due to anti-reflective screen

Overall Performance quoted from ...CNet B850/V10 Previews

{Overall, the picture quality of the Samsung B850/860 series is superb, albeit a bit short of its prime competition, Panasonic's V10 series. Between the two we give the Panasonic the edge in black level performance and the Samsung the nod in terms of color--with the V10 winning overall in our opinion, if by just a hair..... BUT .... The TC-PV10 series was a mediocre performer with standard-def material. It resolved every line of the DVD format, although details weren't quite as sharp as on the Samsung}

I've read many forum threads and official reviews both here,UK and USA and it all leaves me a little bewildered..

Anyways.. I don't have a barrow to push, just happy to get some honest feedback as to pros and cons of these two fine TVs.

NB: Would a TiVo or a PVR ( which I own) compensate for the poor STD Definition of the V10 if connected through HDMI ( I assume the the poor results are from the Panas internal tuner)

[Goldy]

I'm hoping to get some User/Owner comments as to the Samsung Ps50b850 Vs Panasonic Viera Th-p50v10a

I'm stuck between these two, although the extra dollars is a factor in reaching for the B850.

Could any owners comment on these or other factors.

Samsung Ps50b850

a/ Buzzing ( this does seem to be wide spread, although probably a low % of overall sales)

b/ Heat from panel ( front and rear)

c/ Supposedly poor internal speakers

BTW.. I love the PQ of this machine.. awesome!!!!

Panasonic Viera Th-p50v10a

a/ Problems with SD /Foxtel / dvd (poor de-interlacing I believe is the term)

b/ Duller PQ due to anti-reflective screen

Overall Performance quoted from ...CNet B850/V10 Previews

{Overall, the picture quality of the Samsung B850/860 series is superb, albeit a bit short of its prime competition, Panasonic's V10 series. Between the two we give the Panasonic the edge in black level performance and the Samsung the nod in terms of color--with the V10 winning overall in our opinion, if by just a hair..... BUT .... The TC-PV10 series was a mediocre performer with standard-def material. It resolved every line of the DVD format, although details weren't quite as sharp as on the Samsung}

I've read many forum threads and official reviews both here,UK and USA and it all leaves me a little bewildered..

Anyways.. I don't have a barrow to push, just happy to get some honest feedback as to pros and cons of these two fine TVs.

NB: Would a TiVo or a PVR ( which I own) compensate for the poor STD Definition of the V10 if connected through HDMI ( I assume the the poor results are from the Panas internal tuner)

It seems like Samsung have dropped the price on the 850. I stopped at JB at Southland and the sticker price iwas $3496.00 and then went to Harvey Norman and there price was $3699.00.

Makes my decision even harder now.

Edited September 7, 2009 by Goldy

[ozrock]

It seems like Samsung have dropped the price on the 850. I stopped at JB at Southland and the sticker price iwas $3496.00 and then went to Harvey Norman and there price was $3699.00.

Makes my decision even harder now.

Great topic, I am currently considering these exact 2 50 inch plasmas. I looked at them both today in Myer Melb and JB HiFi. To my eyes, the Sammy b850 has a slightly better PQ. It's not a color thing, more of a "sharpness" or perhaps detail thing. Certainly not saying the p50v10a is poor, the picture looks very natural. I just had a slight preference for the Sammy. I am leaning towards the Sammy also because of the extra features (USB port and Network connection options)

Why is the Sammy b750 more expensive (i.e higher RRP on the Samsing site).

sticker prices I saw and wrote down today (and boy does that get salesmen excited)

Myer = 50b850 for $3699 and p50v10a for $3299

JBHiFi = 50b850 for $3496 and p50v10a for $3291

Myer will deliver for $55 and also offered me a 15% discount right off the bat.

[GP11]

I finally sold my old Hitachi 8900 today, so I can't stuff around any longer

I agree ozrock the Sammy B850 does have a sweet picture.. and Yes Myer are keen to do deals atm..

Besides current double Myer one points they have a special 5000 Bonus points (min $500 purchase) from 8th to 13th.. so that's roughly a $110.00 gift card on a $3000 purchase.

My local Myer quoted me

50"B850 $3400 inlc xtra 4 yrs and del

50"V10 $2950 incl xtra 4yrs and del

50"G10 $2450 incl xtra 4yrs and del

Still hoping for some feedback from a current V10 owner re Std Def Pic quality for FTA and or Foxtel

***I love the V10's HD and BR.. it's brilliant, but the Sammy is slightly in front for me although $450 xtra

[gpw]

Great topic, I am currently considering these exact 2 50 inch plasmas. I looked at them both today in Myer Melb and JB HiFi. To my eyes, the Sammy b850 has a slightly better PQ. It's not a color thing, more of a "sharpness" or perhaps detail thing. Certainly not saying the p50v10a is poor, the picture looks very natural. I just had a slight preference for the Sammy. I am leaning towards the Sammy also because of the extra features (USB port and Network connection options)

Why is the Sammy b750 more expensive (i.e higher RRP on the Samsing site).

sticker prices I saw and wrote down today (and boy does that get salesmen excited)

Myer = 50b850 for $3699 and p50v10a for $3299

JBHiFi = 50b850 for $3496 and p50v10a for $3291

Myer will deliver for $55 and also offered me a 15% discount right off the bat.

[gpw]

Great topic, I am currently considering these exact 2 50 inch plasmas. I looked at them both today in Myer Melb and JB HiFi. To my eyes, the Sammy b850 has a slightly better PQ. It's not a color thing, more of a "sharpness" or perhaps detail thing. Certainly not saying the p50v10a is poor, the picture looks very natural. I just had a slight preference for the Sammy. I am leaning towards the Sammy also because of the extra features (USB port and Network connection options)

Why is the Sammy b750 more expensive (i.e higher RRP on the Samsing site).

sticker prices I saw and wrote down today (and boy does that get salesmen excited)

Myer = 50b850 for $3699 and p50v10a for $3299

JBHiFi = 50b850 for $3496 and p50v10a for $3291

Myer will deliver for $55 and also offered me a 15% discount right off the bat.

Edited September 8, 2009 by gpw