Sentient Posted January 17, 2013 Author Posted January 17, 2013 (edited) Also, the DR number is irrelevant to music production. Producers don't aim at a certain DR number if they are 'going audiophile'. They aim at the sound quality that sounds good for the music, or sometimes the artist might want something particular. Otherwise all LP re-releases would be DR 20+. The DR number is a mere observation. I never said it was used in the production process. I use the DR rating to demonstrate the appalling compression that is being applied to CD's. And while it is a reality that all CD's are now compressed, we dont have to like it, and we dont have to roll over and take it. CD's dont need to be compressed. There is no good reason for it. Edited January 17, 2013 by ozmillsy
Newman Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 As soon as everyone implements BS1770 in broadcast, then previous reasons to appallingly compress CDs will vanish. Compression itself will continue to have an important role in getting recorded music to sound good.
Sentient Posted January 17, 2013 Author Posted January 17, 2013 (edited) Compression itself will continue to have an important role in getting recorded music to sound good. Whatever techniques the artists and their producer wants to use in the studio to optimise the music, is their artistic choice. Once it comes out of the studio, that work should be treated with respect and care. What we see on the CD should match what we see on the LP's, but it doesnt time and again. What these Vinyl vs CD comparisons demonstrate to me, is that the compression applied to CD's is a post (studio) process. It's a conscious step the recording companies are making, to make the CD louder. Dont tell me they're doing it for radio braodcasting, I dont buy that for a second. What they are doing is ruining the music, and disrespecting the work that occured in the studio. IMHO. Edited January 17, 2013 by ozmillsy 1
emesbee Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 Most of the CDs that I purchase are not in the pop-rock-alternative(so-called)-metal-hip-hop-etc genre(s). A lot of what I buy is acoustic, with a strong leaning towards Irish/Scottish/folk. There is far less prevalence of over-compression in those recordings. Many are very well recorded in fact. 1
Benje Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 vinyl goes through a post studio process as well. Adelaide SNA has had a couple of visits to a local mastering house which were quite informative - different mastering for vinyl, CD and mp3, different monitors to listen to the output for the different masters. However, there are instructions for the mastering from the owners of the music, it isn't necessarily the masterers choice. One thing when mastering vinyl - the lower frequencies are applied equally to both channels irrespective of the original recording. This helps to prevent the stylus from jumping out of the groove in the more explosive parts of a track. Benje
Newman Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 Sure Benje, we don't want the CDs to actually sound like the vinyl. No need to compromise. emesbee, that's right, it is certainly not CD's fault. Ozmillsy, I agree. Except you can't think they are 'ruining' CD out of ill will or stupidity? They are doing it for commercial reasons. Not just broadcasting, but it is one of them. Also time pressures, formulaic approaches to the studio, past success formulae in the market, average playback equipment, suitability for use in noisy environments (on the move)…. Pop-rock artists understand this too.
Benje Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 Newman my memory is a bit thin here, but i recall they mastered the vinyl differently to prepare it for the pressing. I can't recall any further aspects, except that some vinyl pressers and good, and others can just get it wrong, resulting in rework, ie new pressings by a different vinyl presser. And, you have to get the record to fit on the vinyl. Mikizee, Stump and Frankn might remember more.
Sentient Posted January 17, 2013 Author Posted January 17, 2013 vinyl goes through a post studio process as well. Yep, it does, it needs to have the RIAA eq applied. But they dont seem to butcher the music, like the CD mastering bozo's do. One thing when mastering vinyl - the lower frequencies are applied equally to both channels irrespective of the original recording. This helps to prevent the stylus from jumping out of the groove in the more explosive parts of a track. I didnt know that. Interesting.
Sentient Posted January 17, 2013 Author Posted January 17, 2013 (edited) Ozmillsy, I agree. Except you can't think they are 'ruining' CD out of ill will or stupidity? They are doing it for commercial reasons. They can try and justify by saying it's a commercial decision. I call it gross stupidity, and the mastering engineers who put their name to the work, are clowns in my opinion. You'll never convince me otherwise. Also time pressures, The process to master the music for CD production is infinitely quicker and easier to do now than it used to be. I dismiss the point. formulaic approaches to the studio, BS. They're butchering the music dude. 1 click, just press the pre-defined "compress the crap out of it" button. past success formulae in the market, Good music will sell, whether it is compressed or not. Kidding themselves on this point. They're STOOOPID !! average playback equipment, I own an Ipod, who doesnt. Well mastered music sounds great on it. This point is BS. suitability for use in noisy environments (on the move)…. You're repeating yourself. When in the car, just turn the volume up. Pop-rock artists understand this too. The artists seem quite capable of misunderstanding what is being done to their music, along with others like yourself, who seem to think it's justifiable. All your points pale into insignificance, and do not justify butchering the music on CD the way they do, in my honest opinion. Edited January 17, 2013 by ozmillsy
Newman Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 Thanks for dismissing all the information I provided. Didn't realise what I was up against. cheers PS you didn't know about mastering vinyl? Take a hint.
Sentient Posted January 17, 2013 Author Posted January 17, 2013 Thanks for dismissing all the information I provided. Didn't realise what I was up against. cheers They've all been covered before, and really are nonsense. So many people in the industry have lost their way, with that kind of thinking. IMO. PS you didn't know about mastering vinyl? Take a hint. No one is perfect. Definitely knew it had it's own special mastering. The handling of the lower freq's was interesting though.
Sentient Posted January 17, 2013 Author Posted January 17, 2013 There is another commercial reason that you haven't touched on Newman. Developing multiple market opportunities. Releasing a superior version of an album on vinyl, will see some consumers buy the same title on more than 1 format. It's also a commercial reality to have products targeted for a premium market segment (as opposed to mass market releases). The studios attempted to do this with digital hi-res music, but it never really took off. But vinyl continues to be widely embraced by hifi consumers, and it is fulfilling that premium market strategy. So, they come up with a bunch of reasons why digital releases need to be compressed. And for some small % of titles, they are released on vinyl much closer to the real thing from the studio. That's the commercial reality. The proof is in my hands, as you say. The thing I struggle with, is there are alot of artists who are not mainstream, their music will probably never be released on vinyl, and their cd's are compressed. We'll never hear the music as it was intended. I put it to the record companies, that there will always be a market for vinyl. They don't need to nobble cd's to have that. What they are doing really isnt necessary. 1
ArthurDent Posted January 18, 2013 Posted January 18, 2013 Oz, we all know how passionate you are about this but it's not all the fault of the record companies, producers and the guys in the suits. The artists themselves are as much to blame for all this as anyone else. They need to take control of their music and how the finished product sounds. Sadly and mainly for "pop" music they often do just that by wanting it to be as in your face as the rest of the genre they're competing against. And then there's the modern remasters, often done under the full control of the artist and we all know how bad some of them are. The whole vinyl thing. Niche market that probably expects a better product and one that's not likely to be played on an iThingie with stupid ear bud things or in a car. 3
Newman Posted January 18, 2013 Posted January 18, 2013 (edited) One that always disappoints me is McCartney's "Memory Almost Full" album. I really like the music and the pop songcraft from a man in his mid 60's addressing age-appropriate topics and not trying to be 16. I have the CD and just from listening to it the apparent loudness is enormous -- subjectively say 50% louder than other dynamically compressed pop-rock albums I own. It sounds extremely 'pushy' and to my ear distorted. It is on the DR database as DR 5, and the LP as DR 10. YOYOY would anyone want to give such music a sound like The Deftones' latest heavy metal??? Just for comparison, his Wings Greatest CD has a DR of 12 for roughly similar music. ?? I am sorely tempted to buy the LP, despite my encroaching depression when buying LPs due to my shocking track record at getting new LP's that are blemish-free. Edited January 18, 2013 by Newman
Sentient Posted January 18, 2013 Author Posted January 18, 2013 Oz, we all know how passionate you are about this but it's not all the fault of the record companies, producers and the guys in the suits. The artists themselves are as much to blame for all this as anyone else. They need to take control of their music and how the finished product. I do hold "the suits" accountable, but you're right Ken. I've contacted some local artists about this, and when I do, they don't seem to know. Then there are the really big artists, and some have more control than others. Bob Ludwig has been shamed many times on this thread. He's world famous, and has no shortage of work. I found this quote very interesting,,,,,, In late 2008, mastering engineer Bob Ludwig offered three versions of the Guns N' Roses album Chinese Democracy for approval to co-producers Axl Rose and Caram Costanzo. They selected the one with the least compression. Ludwig wrote, "I was floored when I heard they decided to go with my full dynamics version and the loudness-for-loudness-sake versions be damned."[15] Ludwig said the "fan and press backlash against the recent heavily compressed recordings finally set the context for someone to take a stand and return to putting music and dynamics above sheer level."[15][edit]
Sentient Posted January 18, 2013 Author Posted January 18, 2013 (edited) One that always disappoints me is McCartney's "Memory Almost Full" album. I really like the music and the pop songcraft from a man in his mid 60's addressing age-appropriate topics and not trying to be 16. I have the CD and just from listening to it the apparent loudness is enormous -- subjectively say 50% louder than other dynamically compressed pop-rock albums I own. It sounds extremely 'pushy' and to my ear distorted.It is on the DR database as DR 5, and the LP as DR 10. YOYOY would anyone want to give such music a sound like The Deftones' latest heavy metal??? Just for comparison, his Wings Greatest CD has a DR of 12 for roughly similar music. ?? It really is ridiculous, and you'd think Mr McCartney should know better, to check the production quality. Or some guy in a suit says to him "Sir Paul ,, music is now produced for the iTunes market and it is dangerous for dynamic music to be played on headphones. It can cause unexpected hearing damage, for safety reasons we now normalise it.". Utterly ludicrous, but some say that the artists understand this point. I am sorely tempted to buy the LP, despite my encroaching depression when buying LPs due to my shocking track record at getting new LP's that are blemish-free. And you should not have to buy the LP. And that's the other thing that narks me, It's impossible to avoid surface noise of varying degree's with vinyl. It has it's warts. We're forced to use the format, to get the music as the artist intended. [grumble, grumble] Edited January 18, 2013 by ozmillsy
Briz Vegas Posted January 19, 2013 Posted January 19, 2013 (edited) Let's face it, everyone hates audiophiles. Too fussy by half, even when you make the effort there is still criticism. I prefer ok production and good music to the other way round. I guess most of us would prefer if they just didn't stuff around with it so much, even if you can hear the drummer fart in the best take. Edited by author: drivel removed.. Edited March 25, 2013 by Briz Vegas
Keith Anderson Posted January 19, 2013 Posted January 19, 2013 One of my favourite artist is Sade, love the music, her voice. Diamond Life is a awesome album even after all these years and the origianl CD sounds pretty good to me so I checked it's DR Value Analyzed: Sade / Diamond Life -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR Peak RMS Duration Track -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR12 -7.92 dB -22.42 dB 5:01 01-Smooth Operator DR15 -1.50 dB -19.69 dB 3:59 02-Your Love Is King DR16 -1.79 dB -19.62 dB 6:00 03-Hang On To Your Love DR15 -1.90 dB -20.42 dB 4:38 04-Frankie's First Affair DR14 -4.05 dB -19.92 dB 3:25 05-When Am I Going To Make A Living DR15 -0.31 dB -19.21 dB 6:19 06-Cherry Pie DR15 -1.31 dB -21.47 dB 5:21 07-Sally DR16 -1.01 dB -20.33 dB 4:44 08-I Will Be Your Friend DR16 -2.05 dB -21.54 dB 5:31 09-Why Can't We Live Together -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Number of tracks: 9 Official DR value: DR15 Samplerate: 44100 Hz Channels: 2 Bits per sample: 16 Bitrate: 655 kbps Codec: ALAC DR of 15 pretty good I think Anyway I bought the Ultimate Collection Album and almost had my ears blown out, it's so loud so I checked it's DR value Analyzed: Sade / Ultimate Collection -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR Peak RMS Duration Track -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR6 -0.89 dB -8.66 dB 3:42 ?-1-01 Your Love Is King DR5 -2.02 dB -8.59 dB 4:18 ?-1-02 Smooth Operator DR7 -0.01 dB -9.77 dB 4:32 ?-1-03 Hang On To Your Love DR6 -1.80 dB -8.91 dB 4:27 ?-1-04 The Sweetest Taboo DR5 -0.90 dB -9.51 dB 6:22 ?-1-05 Is It A Crime DR7 -0.10 dB -7.78 dB 3:58 ?-1-06 Never As Good As The First Time DR8 -0.43 dB -10.85 dB 5:27 ?-1-07 Jezebel DR8 -0.70 dB -11.88 dB 4:20 ?-1-08 Love Is Stronger Than Pride DR7 -0.69 dB -9.24 dB 3:38 ?-1-09 Paradise DR8 -0.01 dB -9.61 dB 3:54 ?-1-10 Nothing Can Come Between Us DR7 -0.69 dB -9.19 dB 7:21 ?-1-11 No Ordinary Love DR6 -1.02 dB -8.89 dB 4:14 ?-1-12 Kiss Of Life DR8 -0.09 dB -10.01 dB 5:11 ?-1-13 Feel No Pain DR7 -0.91 dB -10.61 dB 5:25 ?-1-14 Bullet Proof Soul -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Number of tracks: 14 Official DR value: DR7 Samplerate: 44100 Hz Channels: 2 Bits per sample: 16 Bitrate: 1411 kbps Codec: PCM Um now I know why it sounds garbage compaired to the original album
Gee Emm Posted January 19, 2013 Posted January 19, 2013 The real crime is you can't take it back to where you bought it from and say "it's faulty, I want my money back!" If they put the DR value on the cover, you wouldn't have bought it; so they don't. "... art for art's sake. money for God's sake..."
Briz Vegas Posted January 19, 2013 Posted January 19, 2013 You can by The Best Of Sade however. Worst 10. Average 11 best 14. I think it sounds fine.
Sentient Posted February 10, 2013 Author Posted February 10, 2013 (edited) Angus & Julia Stone - Down The Way CD 2010 (DR7) DR Analysis: Click-DR7 Vinyl 2010 (DR11) DR Analysis: Click-DR11 The CD sounded good enough for me to fall in love with the music. But the LP is soooo much better to my ears. No wonder it sells for so much on Ebay ! This analysis has been possible due to the generosity of Whatmore, who went out of his way to loan me the LP. Whatmore, you're a champ !! For those who own the CD, and would like to sample this LP recording (as 16/44.1 files). PM me. Edited February 10, 2013 by ozmillsy
Sentient Posted March 24, 2013 Author Posted March 24, 2013 (edited) Red Hot Chili Peppers - Californication CD 1999 (DR4) DR Analysis: Click-DR4 Vinyl 1999 (DR11) DR Analysis: Click-DR11 IMHO, 1 of the greatest rock albums released in the last 20 years. The LP murders the CD by a large margin. And we can see why,,,,,,,, Is it any wonder enthusiasts are going back to vinyl in droves. I'm listening to the vinyl album, in glorious 16bit digital. Sounds great. Edited March 24, 2013 by ozmillsy 1
LuzArt Posted March 24, 2013 Posted March 24, 2013 Red Hot Chili Peppers - Californication CD 1999 (DR4)DR Analysis: Click-DR4 Vinyl 1999 (DR11)DR Analysis: Click-DR11 IMHO, 1 of the greatest rock albums released in the last 20 years.The LP murders the CD by a large margin. And we can see why,,,,,,,,Is it any wonder enthusiasts are going back to vinyl in droves.I'm listening to the vinyl album, in glorious 16bit digital. Sounds great. Andrew, there are so many great songs on that album but the CD's SQ has definitely disappointed me over the years (can't believe this came out 14 years ago now!). Such a shame this happens.
Sentient Posted March 24, 2013 Author Posted March 24, 2013 Andrew, there are so many great songs on that album but the CD's SQ has definitely disappointed me over the years (can't believe this came out 14 years ago now!). Such a shame this happens.Time flies hey Ben ! Yeah, what they're doing to virtually all cd's released in the last 25 years is like chopping off your nose to spite your face. Despite production companies copping loads of criticism, I dont see the trend changing at all. All this compression really is un-necessary, IMHO.
ZEN MISTER Posted April 13, 2013 Posted April 13, 2013 I was after a good compilation of Midnight Oil music so picked up the "Essential Oils" double CD. The track choices are good, and the cover art looked the biz. I have first edition of all Oils vinyl, plus first generation CDs, so know how these should sound. First off was " RUN BY NIGHT" from the first album. Although the first edition tends to a whisker of compression, and a little bass shy, I know it is a simply recorded track, with sinew and feel to burn. So it came as some surprise to find it was reduced to a constricted, two dimensional sound field, with Peters' voice reduced to a fax-like presentation. Track after track played out as a flat sound stage, that all but shouted at me. The culprit responsible is Steve Smart at Studio 301. I love this music and am perplexed that this important band have not had the retrospective they deserve. These songs should be redone with a view to hi-Rez standards, indeed, the original dynamic range, and' organicity ' retained as either quality redbook transfers, or a hydrid sacd option. I was curious to see how these rated on the Dynamic Range database. The first disc is a pathetic 6 with the second being worse, 5. Interestingly, the earlier pressings all rate very well, with ' Redneck Wonderland' and 'Capricornia', and the live set " Scream in Blue" being the disappointments. So, unless you are purchasing for the car, steer clear of these- you will make your ears bleed. ZM.
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