A warning to all video gamers re: plasmas

[ridemyrocket]

People turn to these forums for guidance , advise & to share opinions & experience,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly. And if you had bothered to read the entire thread rather than just stumbling in then you would have noticed that this is exactly the intention I had when I began. I was provoked and reacted. I never wanted this to become a spamarific slanging match.

Why the hell would I bother typing out such a long opening post for this thread if I was purely interested in spam and not informing people or engaging in intelligent discussion?

Get back in the kitchen where you belong woman and leave the technology to the boys

Edit: Amy and I have since kissed and made up via PM

[myrantz]

Sorry, I really didn't mean to attack you or gaming, it's home entertainment & we all share a passion for it, in all its forms.

Honestly I prefer to play games in the old arcades.... But it doesn't seem to be that popular in WA..

The comment was merly a response to ridemy rockets arrogance, & disrespect to the forum users.

Ah. I thought it was directed at me. Sorry for jumping to conclusions..

People turn to these forums for guidance , advise & to share opinions & experience, & when a thread gets hijacked & becomes a joke.... I think you see what I'm trying to say.

This forum is very good actually, thanks to whoever administers this board

So please don't take offence, as I for one, can not wait for my PS3!!.

Aawww. It just doesn't feel the same to be playing games at home. Back in the arcade days, you can patiently stand behind a player, watch his moves (aka find his weakness), then join in and kick his butt.. A game is so much better and exciting when you play with unknown players. But I'm only saying this becoz I can't afford a PS3 or Xbox 360 .

[Arcos]

This is a joke right?

- Using a HTPC via VGA or DVI to a 32" 1366x768 LCD panel I can watch either the SD or HD channels with no delay between audio and video (audio going to a separate DD receiver/amp).

- no noticeable lag on mouse movement, keyboard, scrolling, etc with HTPC at the panels native resolution (I suspect the native resolution should help here since no scaling needs to be done by the display).

- No noticeable input lag on PC or XBOX games at non-native resolutions, nor any obvious sound or lip sync issues (to the DD amp).

My brother has also had a SD Panasonic plasma for a few years with XBox hooked up and has not had these issues.

I have noticed once or twice that a particular digital tv show/channel might get out of sync, but this is a station/decoder issue and other channels have always been fine at the time.

I don't deny a problem can exist, but it really depends on make/model of panel and the source device/material.

[Guest DrEv|l]

this thread is priceless!

So who's gonna break the news to Fuji, Pioneer, Hitachi, NEC, Panasonic et al about their technology sucking?  Toshi boy said it himself with his HD 'TUBE'.  Didn't know they made CRT's in 1920x1080... but you learn something new every day.

Now i don't understand jive talk but i think i can make sense of the 'Freedom against tubes' statement, and as far as my 'decoding' goes, this actually means these people are anti-tube?

goose

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

DUDE heres some info, cause u seem smart. coughcoughBS

http://www.castel.com.au/toshiba/ProductDe...uctCode=36SW9UA

now i know u wont like this but amuse yaself, u mite find somethan out, now go 2 brochere, u might be enlightened... hmm could be false advertising 2, OH no tosh r in trob lol... man i dun give a rats ass dude, go to city face on the brochure an look under it, u notice anythan?? they have specs on the tube, u waaanker, soz dude, but if u dont know wot ya talkin bout then pls stfu butt boy!! but u r entilted to your opinion, w/e that may be... hmmm tubes dont do hi def, thats a good 1... tossa

[Adam-O]

Having just read this thread, and as an active forum contributor since the days of the very first DBA forum 4+ years ago, I have to say that I am pretty embarrassed and ashamed about what has gone on here.

'ridemyrocket' has come here simply to report an issue that he has encountered in order to benefit forum members who may be interested. As it happens, he is 100% right about this particular issue, but more about that later. He gets nothing from having made his initial post, it is purely done within the spirit of information sharing, which is what makes the concept of internet forums so useful and powerful.

To see an immediate reply of:

Sounds like a steaming pile of crap to be honest, I've never experienced anything of the sort, sorry your plasma is incapable.

Then followed up by an approving laugh from 'glenncol', was really disappointing to say the least. Is this how you would respond to someone face-to-face if they politely brought an issue to your attention in order to possibly save you from wasting time/money and experiencing disappointment and frustration?

Even if you did not immediately understand what they were talking about or did not think that it would ever be relevant to you, would you be so rude? Perhaps some of you would, which I guess is more a reflection of personality and (lack of) social graces than anything else.

Even after this, 'ridemyrocket' patiently explained in further detail the problem. His second post was still objective and almost entirely non-emotional, his only deviation from this being the "No it is not a steaming pile of crap you tool!" remark, though this appeared completely justified considering what he was responding to and came across more as being in jest than anything personal.

Nonetheless, things ultimately started to go down hill, with male pride taking over as is so often the case, 'glenncol' resenting being challenged over his "approving laugh" post and responding with:

Mate your a dickhead seriously

Do fing come in here and throw you weight dude dude

After this, it seemed almost everyone wanted to jump on the bandwagon and slam, mock and belittle 'ridemyrocket'. This is what embarrassed me the most, as it appeared completely unjustified and was coming from people who clearly did not understand the issue, nor seemingly had any interest in such. They were just cheap shots.

Of course there were a couple of people who made good contributions, eg. 'Owen', stating their opinion objectively and maturely even though it was against the forum tide that was developing in opposition to 'ridemyrocket'.

Some may say that 'ridemyrocket' brought this upon himself by some of the comments he ultimately made, however, in my opinion these comments were made in direct response to the insults and attacks that were now flowing thick and fast his way. His comments were mild and, by and large, objective, compared to the drivel that was emanating from others.

Of course once it got to that level though, anything he said was completely ridiculed by others. Even some forum members whom I know for a fact know better about this issue, couldn't resist the temptation to jump on the bandwagon. Again, very disappointing, and not at all helpful to anyone.

No doubt some will view this post as me taking the high moral ground. I don't intend it in that spirit at all. It's just that I happen to be very well acquainted with the specific issue that 'ridemyrocket' raised and feel that he was treated very unfairly and with great hostility for no apparent reason. I have seen plenty of "****-fights" on this forum and normally don't bother entering the fray. However, this was quite exceptional and I feel compelled. It could have just as easily been me making the initial post -- as this is right up my alley -- and I know for sure that I would not have enjoyed the reception that he got.

For what it's worth, you learn more by listening/reading/observing than by "dissing" someone just for the fun of it, even if you think that what they are saying seems like a "steaming pile of crap". In this case, what 'ridemyrocket' has observed is 100% correct, and I will now delve into that.

Realtime digital processing of media and latency

As I said, this issue is right up my alley. I am a software engineer and write audio and video engines and DSP routines that are used in a set of products around the world. The issue of latency is one of the MOST PROBLEMATIC issues I have had to deal with in working with realtime digital processing. It is a very real issue. In the products I work with -- and the same is true of game play on console machines -- response time between user input and perceived output on the screen and through the speakers is critical. Unfortunately there is no such thing as zero latency in digital processing, but the lower it is, the better.

Correcting for audio/video sync issues ("lip sync") is all well and good for the purpose of watching a movie or live TV. In this case the goal is simply that audio and video are "presented" at the correct moment in time with relation to each other. There are no other constraints. For game play, not only do you want the audio and video to be in sync with each other, but you also want this to be in sync with your input -- your actions of pressing buttons on the controller. To achieve this goal you need no, or very low, delay propagation throughout the whole pipeline of user-input all the way through to display and speakers.

Gaming consoles themselves are designed fit for the purpose. They process input, execute game logic, and render audio and video frames fast enough to be more than acceptable for their express purpose -- to play games. With that said, some games and/or consoles are better than others, as you may have noticed when you play a game that just doesn't feel as responsive as you would like. This is outside the scope of this discussion, however.

When you connect your console directly to a CRT tube TV, providing it is not one of the newer type TVs that process the video in a frame buffer, what you see on the screen is exactly in time with the signal that the console is emitting. (For the real techno geeks here, yes, there is still a small delay due to the speed of flow of electrons -- the speed of light -- and even more of note, the fact that most TVs buffer at least a couple of lines of the image in order to average the chroma information -- PAL stands for Phase Alternate Line and this method of handling the chroma is why PAL TVs don't require a "tint" control. Anyway, these delays are not even worth considering.)

People tend to think of a frame as representing a single moment in time, and generally it does, however it can not be transmitted in a single moment. It takes time (one frame period) to transmit an entire frame. Since a CRT is scanning the frame to screen pretty much as it is being received down the wire, there is little additional latency introduced. A plasma or LCD display first has to receive one entire frame into an internal frame buffer, process it, then commit it to the screen cells (pixels). This means that at best, it has one frame's worth of latency more than the CRT. In reality though, the processing takes time, perhaps an additional frame's worth, or sometimes much more -- it all depends on the display and the level of processing it is performing.

Let's call this latency the input-to-display latency, that is, the delay between when a given field/frame is being sent down the wire and when it is actually visible on the panel's screen. Note that this latency is an entirely different concept than the "response time" of the panel's screen technology, ie. black-to-white, grey-to-grey, etc, times. The latter affects whether a trail or "ghost" is left on the screen whenever the image is moving, and while a very important attribute, has almost NOTHING to do with the input-to-display latency.

How much latency do digital displays exhibit, and why?

If you are using an LCD monitor on your PC, then the video card and display are most likely running at 60 Hz -- this is the most common setting and gives the best results for an LCD. Your video card is putting out a progressive signal, which means that each frame represents 1000 / 60 = 16.667 ms of time. Depending on how additional processing is done, sequentially, as the data is received, or on the frame buffer as a whole once the whole frame is received, there may be an additional frame or even more of latency.

All plasmas and LCDs, even computer monitor LCDs, process the video in some way. There is no such thing as an LCD that does not do video processing. Otherwise how would the brightness/contrast/colour balance, etc controls work? How would the panel be able to display modes that are not native, ie 640 x 480? These processes are all implemented as algorithms that manipulate the digital data that represents each pixel of the image once it is received. However, there is a big difference in the level of the processing that is done. An LCD computer monitor will do very little processing, so latency is very low, say around 20 ms, whereas a TV-type panel will do a lot more.

An LCD or plasma TV will generally introduce a lot more latency for the following reasons. First, when talking about PAL, we are talking about 50 Hz, not 60 Hz. This means that each motion update represents 1000 / 50 = 20 ms of time, rather than the 16.667 ms of 60 Hz. Secondly, PAL is interlaced and is at 50 fields per second, not 50 frames per second. Since a digital display will always have to de-interlace the signal before being able to display it, it has to receive two whole fields (one full frame) which equates to 1000 / 25 = 40 ms of time, before it can even start to process it! Then when you add the actual de-interlacing/scaling/etc processing time, you can see how this figure can get right up in the vicinity of 100 ms (one tenth of a second), which is most certainly noticeable.

Of course brands and models will vary. It is possible to do very fast processing and it is possible to process the data sequentially as it is received along the wire, rather than accumulating it and then processing it in one block. However, this is more difficult to do and would be more costly, so why would a manufacturer bother? One delay factor that can NEVER be negated is the need to wait for two whole fields to be received before being able to de-interlace. You simply can't display one field straight to the screen, no matter how fast your processing is. It won't look good. De-interlacing relies on having at least one adjacent field, and often, a couple, before being able to generate the progressive de-interlaced frame that belongs to that moment in time in preparation for display. This implies AT LEAST a delay of 40 ms with PAL (33.33 ms with NTSC) if the de-interlacer only requires two fields. However the better quality de-interlacers may work with more than just two fields, which means the latency may be even higher.

Paradoxically, if your plasma has high input-to-display latency then it probably means one of two things: 1) it has slower processing in order to save costs, or 2) it is actually doing a good job of processing and this necessitates accumulating more than two fields before outputting a frame. Of course both of the above could also be true.

If you go and plug your X-Box into a "DVDO ISCAN VP30" such as the one that 'glenncol' has just arranged a group buy for, then you are only going to increase the latency a whole lot more! Why? Because the unit is a scaler and by its very nature has to wait for at least two fields to arrive -- and usually more, for quality reasons -- then de-interlace, scale and transmit down the line. This delay is then added to the delay already present in the whole chain due to your plasma or LCD, and the result is, well, a lot more lag! If you are lucky enough to be able to coax your plasma into omitting some of its processing because you are sending it a native signal (from the scaler) then you may reduce some of the plasma delay, however don't be surprised if this doesn't happen -- most plasmas still send the signal through the same pipeline/path no matter what resolution the incoming signal is. Certainly I wouldn't expect the latency to decrease. So all in all, when added to another 100 ms or so that the scaler adds, you're going to be far worse off. (I am not having a go at scalers or the VP30 -- I'm sure its a great unit and is awesome for viewing DVDs. I'm just pointing out that this is the last thing you would want to introduce into your A/V pipeline for serious game play!)

Why do at least two fields have to be received before a single frame can be output?

Because the incoming signal is interlaced and is of a resolution that does not match that of the panel. PAL CRT TVs are designed for PAL 576i -- they scan at exactly that rate. No de-interlacing is required, no frame buffering. The de-interlacing happens naturally with the phospors on the screen and the way our eyes and brain perceive motion. So in this way CRT TVs have a big advantage over digital display technologies, but ONLY FOR THE NATIVE RATE AT WHICH THEY WERE DESIGNED. You can't send anything other than a 576i (or 480i -- NTSC) signal to them.

If you have a multiscan CRT that is capable of scanning at a wide range of scanrates then you have the advantage of low-latency but with the added ability of handling non-PAL and non-NTSC signals. However, beware, many of these newer CRT displays actually do process the signal digitally much the same as a plasma would. They won't necessarily adjust the scanrate of the electron beam to exactly match that of the input signal. It all depends on the brand, model and signal type. As soon as there is digital processing involved, especially de-interlacing and scaling, then you can expect the latency to jump up significantly.

Finally, just to be complete in case there is someone who will pull me up on this, it is actually possible just to receive a field and display it straight away without first accumulating two or more fields in order to properly de-interlace. You can just take the one field you have, scale it up and display it, paying attention to the odd or even-ness of the field. This is called bob de-interlacing. The problem is that half of the vertical resolution is permanently lost and so NO brand of plasma or LCD would do this, even the cheapies. So for all practical intents and purposes you do have to wait and accumulate at least two fields before being able to output, hence the minimum theoretical latency being at least 40 ms for a PAL or 50 Hz signal, and generally much longer once all other factors are accounted for.

If you have never noticed this issue on your plasma then ask yourself these questions?

1. Have you actually connected a console up to it and played a game? (This really doesn't apply to DVD viewing because in the latter case it is only the relative sync between audio and video that you are concerned about, not the absolute input-to-display latency).

2. Was it a fast-action game that requires precise movement and did you play properly? (Casual play may not reveal the issue, depending on how perceptive you are).

If you can answer 'yes' to both of these questions and you still believe that you don't notice any delay then you probably fit into one of the following categories:

1. You have adjusted to the environment. Your brain has re-calibrated and is compensating as best it can for the delay. (No, this is not a joke, this is seriously what happens).

2. You happen to have poor temporal perception. (This is not an insult, just one of the possibilities. Humans perceive things differently and are less or more sensitive in different areas).

3. You happen to have a plasma that is nearer to the lower end of the scale, as far as input-to-display latency goes. (As explained above, however, it will still have a lot more latency than a CRT -- this is non-negotiable).

4. A combination of the above.

So what can I do about this?

If you do use your X-Box, or whatever console, on your plasma and you want to minimize latency then there are a couple of things to consider. Ultimately, however, if you're really serious, you probably won't find any of the following acceptable or reasonable when compared to playing the game directly on a CRT display.

1. Put your console in NTSC mode if you can. Since NTSC has a field rate of 60 Hz as opposed to PAL's 50 Hz, each frame's worth of latency is slightly less. Your plasma may or may not reward you with reduced input-to-display latency -- it all depends on how the internals are implemented, but there's a good possibility.

2. I can't speak for other consoles, but I know that with the X-Box you can "chip" it with a HD mod that allows it to run in HD modes, all at 60 Hz. Then, depending on the game (not all games allow free choice of the output mode) choose 720p if you can. The great thing about this is that you are running in 60 Hz (see point 1 above), but more importantly than that, you are running in a progressive mode, which means that in theory at least, your plasma does not have to accumulate two or more fields/frames before displaying a single frame. It will receive a full progressive frame each 1/60th of a second (16.667 ms) and all it has to do is scale it and display. Your plasma may or may not respond by exhibiting a lower input-to-display latency, but there's a reasonable likelihood that it will.

No matter what the situation is, you can probably appreciate that a serious gamer would find this whole issue completely unacceptable. Imagine if a driver of a V8 Supercar (we're talking real life here, not a console game) was made to drive a vehicle that had a 100 ms latency (one tenth of a second) between when he moved the steering wheel and the wheels actually responded! Sure, his brain would eventually compensate and he would be able to keep the thing on the road, but it sure as hell would place him at a huge disadvantage in comparison to his opponents!

For a serious gamer, even a single additional frame of latency (40 ms for a PAL or 50 Hz signal) will make a BIG difference to their ability to play at their best, and ALL digital displays introduce AT LEAST this much! For this reason, a serious gamer (of action-type games) will always prefer CRT-based technology. Either that, or make everyone use the same display technology so at least all opponents are on a level playing field.

It's a bit like comparing analog TV to digital TV or traditional telephony to VOIP solutions. The digital equivalents are wonderful in so many ways, but latency remains the one thorn-in-the-side. Many here have complained about why when watching their favourite AFL or cricket match on digital TV and listening to the audio commentary from the radio, the two are not in sync -- a problem that didn't normally occur with analog TV. Well, that's digital for you! Latency is inherent in all realtime digital processing. As brilliant, powerful and flexible as digital is in so many ways, latency remains the one affliction that's never going to go away entirely.

Cheers,

Adam

P.S. Don't bother replying to my post unless you've actually read it -- properly. If you have, and wish to make a constructive comment, I'd be more than happy to respond.

[glenncol]

Having just read this thread, and as an active forum contributor since the days of the very first DBA forum 4+ years ago, I have to say that I am pretty embarrassed and ashamed about what has gone on here.

'ridemyrocket' has come here simply to report an issue that he has encountered in order to benefit forum members who may be interested. As it happens, he is 100% right about this particular issue, but more about that later. He gets nothing from having made his initial post, it is purely done within the spirit of information sharing, which is what makes the concept of internet forums so useful and powerful.

To see an immediate reply of:

Then followed up by an approving laugh from 'glenncol', was really disappointing to say the least. Is this how you would respond to someone face-to-face if they politely brought an issue to your attention in order to possibly save you from wasting time/money and experiencing disappointment and frustration?

Even if you did not immediately understand what they were talking about or did not think that it would ever be relevant to you, would you be so rude? Perhaps some of you would, which I guess is more a reflection of personality and (lack of) social graces than anything else.

Even after this, 'ridemyrocket' patiently explained in further detail the problem. His second post was still objective and almost entirely non-emotional, his only deviation from this being the "No it is not a steaming pile of crap you tool!" remark, though this appeared completely justified considering what he was responding to and came across more as being in jest than anything personal.

Nonetheless, things ultimately started to go down hill, with male pride taking over as is so often the case, 'glenncol' resenting being challenged over his "approving laugh" post and responding with:

After this, it seemed almost everyone wanted to jump on the bandwagon and slam, mock and belittle 'ridemyrocket'. This is what embarrassed me the most, as it appeared completely unjustified and was coming from people who clearly did not understand the issue, nor seemingly had any interest in such. They were just cheap shots.

Of course there were a couple of people who made good contributions, eg. 'Owen', stating their opinion objectively and maturely even though it was against the forum tide that was developing in opposition to 'ridemyrocket'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Adam

I have not read your post but will reply to the above statements

The Laugh Icon was explained to Rocket so its covered so unless you can read his or my PM's you will not understand what went on

Hence the reason for this post

BTW glenncol I read your PM and if what you say is true regarding the sarcasm of your laugh icon then I do in fact owe you an apology and was wrong to chastise you rather than the troll who started this nonsense.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But what you have not seen is the posts that have been deleted by Coral which came from Rocket and i responded in kind so Adam thanks for the post but if you have not seen exactly what happend and what was said What can i say

[norpus]

Wow, fantastic informative post there Adam O. Thank you .

[mrl]

P.S. Don't bother replying to my post unless you've actually read it -- properly. If you have, and wish to make a constructive comment, I'd be more than happy to respond.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm glad you posted this - I've commented several times before to various people that when playing xbox connected to my KVHR36M31 (Sony HD CRT) TV, there's a noticeable lag if the TV's DRC (digital processing) feature is on. Nobody agreed with me - I was starting to think I was going crazy! Cheers, good post.

One suggestion you make is to switch the xbox's output to NTSC (only available if you mod it) so that it outputs at 60Hz - in the dashboard, there is an option for PAL 60 mode. Will this have the same effect?

[Darklord]

Adam,

Without a doubt one of the most well informed, articulate, and clever posts ever made at DBA. I read it twice to soak it all up, and agree with every point made. It reads more like a professionally written scientific paper than a forum post.

As a PC gamer who can’t tolerate anything below 60fps on a high quality CRT monitor, and after working in the AV industry with every type of display available, I understand this issue from a laymen's viewpoint completely, but that’s the first time I’ve seen such a brilliant technical explanation of the problem. As much I can tolerate plasmas for viewing of video sources, I would never purchase one for hardcore gaming for this reason (amongst others).

I also commend you on raising the constant issue of petty, ill-informed name calling and personal attacks, which go one so frequently at DBA that they seem to be a weekly occurrence.

There is also a disturbing trend here to “follow the leader” and blindly accept advice of a select group of people, without any real technical reasons for doing so. When people offer alternative viewpoints, they are often shot down in flames in stupid one liner posts, rather than people having the education and respect to properly respond to the poster’s claims in a mature fashion. Behavior like this just doesn’t occur at AV Forums, AV Science Forums, or even HT Central for that matter, and for very good reason. Respect for other members and proper forum moderation. It’s a concept that dates back to the very first bulletin boards to surface on the net, but yet there is still no proper hands on moderation or instant intervention at DBA. Even the simple concept of thread merging is completely overlooked here! How many posts have we had on the same topics appear over the last few weeks? I’ve certainly lost count.

This is the only forum I know of in the world that is this large, and has such high general public exposure without any dedicated moderation to perform tasks as simple as merging threads, and stepping in to personally smooth out personal fights. Coral certainly does a good job in some areas, and I understand more than anyone how demanding on time moderating can be, and that’s why there should be at least 5 mods here that are well versed an all aspects of forum moderation. Not just a simple “delete aggressive posts when reported” strategy”. Hell, we have 4 moderators at HTC, with one tenth of the posts, and as a result it runs as smoothly as clockwork.

Sorry for the rant, but this thread, and Adam’s excellent post really brought into the limelight just how much better this forum could be with some sensible member cooperation and true moderation.

[Scorchie™]

Since when did this thread turn into a 'Moderation is lacking' one? -.-

Get this thread back on topic. Users have been warned via PMs what is and isn't acceptable, consider this your last official warning.

[Guest EZYHD]

Adam-), I've read a few thousand reports over time but I do think you get first prize, well thought out and easy to understand and long, so well done ol chap. I'd like to see your Post pinned so those wanting this advise can simply look there first rather than endless searching.

A prospective purchaser of the same Plasma I have PM'd me asking if it was a good unit without too many probs, I said yes I'm very happy, he went off and bought the same one, I find out later he had a game consul but he never told me that in the first instance, he was so dam disapointed with the consul performace. As a matter of fact I've never owned a game consul, about the only time I've seen one was in a shop, so I wouldn't have been a help to him anyways.

[Darklord]

Since when did this thread turn into a 'Moderation is lacking' one? -.-

Get this thread back on topic.  Users have been warned via PMs what is and isn't acceptable, consider this your last official warning.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very interesting reaction Coral. I just expressed an opinion (and opinion that many others share as you know), based upon events of this nature occurring very frequently at DBA, and you respond to it with a threat?! Moderation was a very valid issue to bring into the discussion given the aggressive nature of many elements of this thread, and the lack of response with dealing with them quickly and efficiently.

The nature of my post in response to Adam’s excellent information, should have made it clear that it was by no means my aim to hijack the thread. I also commented that I do think you do a good job, but it’s simply not possible to run a forum of this size with one person. A fairly worthy point to make I would have thought, given things get out of control so often here.

But hey if you really think PMs to members are the answer, then by all means lets things continue as they are.

[Scorchie™]

Worthy point sure, but wrong forum and thread to make it in.

This thread is about plasma performance and response times. It is not about forum moderation.

The PMs line was an indication to members who have toed the line to cease. Other actions have occurred behind the scene as well.

[Darklord]

OK. Fair enough. In that case I apologise for muddying the waters further.

[Scorchie™]

Upon re-reading it may be construed that my warnings line above may be considered as being aimed at Darklord. Quite the contrary. Darklord has always made valid and well timed points.

The warning was given at some members who degraded this thread into a shamble. You know who you are.

[myrantz]

As I said, this issue is right up my alley. I am a software engineer and write audio and video engines and DSP routines that are used in a set of products around the world. The issue of latency is one of the MOST PROBLEMATIC issues I have had to ...

I feel so relieved having read this post. I assume you are a console developer?? So console developers are aware of this issue. Main question is what do you guys plan to do about it?

Future (even existing) consoles no doubt has wireless controllers, some controllers may even be OEM and not up to specs, this will increase the lag. Already some pple are seeing "bluetooth lag" on their new PC mouse.

As more and more OEM devices comes into market, how could developers possibily factor in the lantancies of all these things? Is it possible to have a "calibration" sort of feature in games to take in account of all this?

This is actually a very useful thread.

If you do use your X-Box, or whatever console, on your plasma and you want to minimize latency then there are a couple of things to consider. Ultimately, however, if you're really serious, you probably won't find any of the following acceptable or reasonable when compared to playing the game directly on a CRT display.

In the future if games are "tuned' specifically for plasmas/projecters/lcds (is that even possible seeing there aren't really similiar, calibration somehows comes into mind again), wouldn't it place CRT users like me in a disadvantage? Games played in the arcades ported to the console already dun play quite right.

Edit: BTW, my questions are based on a console.. I dun play games that much now, but I dun think PC games are much of a problem somehow.. And very few games have this issue actually (prob some very old games that I still enjoy)...

[ridemyrocket]

Adam-O. That was the best post I have ever read on an internet forum and not just because you stood up for me. A masterpiece quite frankly. Thanks to you I will now have the technical information to support my experiences.

[shinrai]

Darklord?

Are you for real?

That person you referred to has helped us all.

Case in point:

Yesterday i received my 50" fuji in place of 2 previous 50mxe1's. They were returned for a reason totaly unrelated to IQ. I didn't get to try any pana's.

Now let me say that without this persons advice i never would have considered seriously looking at the 50" fuji. Why am i thankful? IQ is up 15-25%. Toppy SD/dvd crappy 676 pio) receive the biggest jump. Smeering - GONE! Clay Face - GONE! Detail - UP! HDTV - crisper and cleaner. Just the noise reduction alone is wonderful. Black levels - boy oh boy. Was i missing this on the pio.

So you see, THANK YOU to that particular person and credit to them for

having the courage to insist we actually see this model.

And as far as the moderating, just go to whirlpool, which i'm sure you know, and have a look what an overmoderated forum looks like.

I really like the moderating here. Repetative questions are the name of the game. Don't read them.

Hey, sorry you feel no one listens to you.

Oh, and that problem i originally had. Still there. Bummer!

[Hydrology]

Just to re-iterate, nobody worth their salt is denying that latency/response time problems exist, it was the method in which ridemyrocket thrashed his way in here that causd the reaction.

[Darklord]

Darklord?

Are you for real?

That person you referred to has helped us all.

Case in point:

Yesterday i received my 50" fuji in place of 2 previous 50mxe1's. They were returned for a reason totaly unrelated to IQ. I didn't get to try any pana's.

Now let me say that without this persons advice i never would have considered seriously looking at the 50" fuji. Why am i thankful? IQ is up 15-25%. Toppy SD/dvd crappy 676 pio) receive the biggest jump. Smeering - GONE! Clay Face - GONE! Detail - UP! HDTV - crisper and cleaner. Just the noise reduction alone is wonderful. Black levels - boy oh boy. Was i missing this on the pio.

So you see, THANK YOU to that particular person and credit to them for

having the courage to insist we actually see this model.

I really wish I knew what you were talking about. I don’t recall mentioning any names or making any specific comments towards anyone at all. I can only assume based on your Fujistu comment that you are referring to Glenn with your post above, who I agree is an extremely valuable forum contributor, and who in no way did I mention or single out in any way. So I guess the question is are you for real?!

I really like the moderating here. Repetative questions are the name of the game. Don't read them.

Don’t read them? Great solution Shinrai. You just highlighted the biggest single problem here. Newbies miss all the important info because no one wants to type out or read the same info 700 times. Thread merging puts all the relevant info in the one thread. It’s practiced across every respectable forum on the internet and works a charm. You can’t seriously be suggesting you prefer multiple threads all discussing exactly the same topic, where the result is information just gets lost or missed altogether?

Hey, sorry you feel no one listens to you.

What on earth is that supposed to mean?!

[AussieX3]

Just to re-iterate, nobody worth their salt is denying that latency/response time problems exist, it was the method in which ridemyrocket thrashed his way in here that causd the reaction.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That' it... even for me I was quietly listening and accepting the facts made by ridemyrocket initially until I started to read highly subjective opinions...

[Adam-O]

Adam

I have not read your post but will reply to the above statements

The Laugh Icon was explained to Rocket so its covered so unless you can read his or my PM's you will not understand what went on

Hence the reason for this post

But what you have not seen is the posts that have been deleted by Coral which came from Rocket  and i responded in kind so Adam thanks for the post but if you have not seen exactly what happend and what was said  What can i say

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No worries Glen. You're right, I only started reading this thread late last night so I did not see some of the earlier posts that were edited/deleted. If I have unfairly drawn attention to you then I apologize for that. I still think that the behaviour shown here was deplorable.

Cheers,

Adam

[shinrai]

Which go one so frequently at DBA that they seem to be a weekly occurrence.

I travel regularly on these forums just like you. I have not seen what you are talikng about.

There is also a disturbing trend here to “follow the leader” and blindly accept advice of a select group of people, without any real technical reasons for doing so.

You know eactly what you were saying here. Don't avoid the inferences now.

This is the only forum I know of in the world that is this large, and has such high general public exposure without any dedicated moderation to perform tasks as simple as merging threads, and stepping in to personally smooth out personal fights. Coral certainly does a good job in some areas, and I understand more than anyone how demanding on time moderating can be, and that’s why there should be at least 5 mods here that are well versed an all aspects of forum moderation. Not just a simple “delete aggressive posts when reported” strategy”. Hell, we have 4 moderators at HTC, with one tenth of the posts, and as a result it runs as smoothly as clockwork.

The only thing that need to happen here is sticky's at the top with the most important imformation and telling everyone to search first before asking.

Sorry for the rant, but this thread, and Adam’s excellent post really brought into the limelight just how much better this forum could be with some sensible member cooperation and true moderation.

Sounds to me like you had a lot of bottled up angst.

Darklord, i read a number of your posts with interest and respect.

If this forum has taken a certain trend to a certain model for the next few months, so what? If there is a group of people that are proud of what they have, so what? Let it be. Don't take it as a personal insult to panasonic.

What amazes me is that at AVS, they love their pana's and pio's like mad but no one their complains about bias which is what i belive you are insinuating this forum is. Obviously, the bias at avs doesn't bother you?

And you don't get a lot of threads over there like this because you don't have a lot of people like rocket handling the thread in the manner he did.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[AussieX3]

There is also a disturbing trend here to “follow the leader” and blindly accept advice of a select group of people, without any real technical reasons for doing so.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am gathering this is the line shinrai is upset with... why does that trend disturb you? 'follow the leader" is a good thing specially when we have the 'BEST LEADER" we know of in this forum.

[AussieX3]

I have never been encountered in any other internet forums I have been to with a person like 'glenncol' who is so attentive, imformative, funny, humble, and aggressive when required.... got every attributes that he can be called a good opinion leader.

Respect is earned.