brenden Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 Hooked up the beautiful Marantz CD12/DA12 up and guess what ? It's still got it . Sounds superb. The very best of the tda1541a , and was reminded why this player is considered a legend still today. Here is a photo of two legends in my view . Stax CA-X pro and Marantz CD 12 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brenden Posted June 15, 2017 Author Share Posted June 15, 2017 And my super modified CD94 Mk2 With very rare ( unobtainium ) copper foil PPS Audio capacitors around the TDA1541A s1 single crown chips . This player will never be recreated . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brenden Posted June 15, 2017 Author Share Posted June 15, 2017 And clock with all copper foils including Jupiters and Silmic 2 Super Gold caps 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclekanus Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 The capacitors are PPS as in polyphenylene sulfide? What value are they Brendan? Cheers Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve M Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 (edited) Hi Brenden, The CD12 pairing looks very nice, a Ken Kessler HiFi News favourite. Does the modded CD94 sound as good ...just curious? Cheers, Steve. Edited June 20, 2017 by Steve M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgehifi Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 Ones got 2 x single crowns, the other got 1 X double crown MARANTZ CD-94 Mk II 2 x TDA1541A-S1 (Single Crown) CDM-1 MARANTZ CD-12 It's a Transport CDM-1 MARANTZ DA-12 TDA1541A-S1 (Single / Double Crown) It's a DAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brenden Posted June 20, 2017 Author Share Posted June 20, 2017 Hi Steve M and George . Georgehifi is perfectly correct regarding the chips used in these machines . I have owned and modified Marantz cd94 mk1 and mk2 machines since I bought my first new mk2 in around 1990. Only in the past year or so have I had the pleasure of owning a CD12 /DA12 . My modified CD94 mk2 is in a different ball park to a stock one. and wasnt expecting the CD12 to be any where near as good to be honest . This particular CD12 had issues from new , believe it or not , so the previous owners never really heard what it is capable of . I was able to rectify those issues and get it up to like new status . Once fixed , it sounded glorious and very close to my modded Cd94 mk2 . To my surprise the cd12 more than held its own in most areas in some areas even better . This really surprised me having come so far with the modded machine . In some areas the modded machine gets a slight nod . Dont ask me to pick a favourite. So its important to realise the chips used are only one consideration to the sound quality of a particular machine . The power supplies are critical . For example the CD 12 Supplies use a total of four massive toroidal transformers and totally separate power supplies for each section. The clocking arrangement in the CD12 is also superior using a dual clocking system with 2 different frequencies . Then there are the decoupling caps around the tda1541 a . Almost every commercial machine made used cheap polyester caps around the tda1541 .These caps are critical to the sound quality of a CD player .The DA12 uses custom made film foil caps which are vastly better than usual .These are much larger and a lot more expensive. There are lots of other refinements in the CD12 that are not cheap to incorporate like extensive copper plated shielding and transformer outputs etc . The CD12 is the best stock player I have heard and currently its a close call between my pride and joy CD94 mk2 and the CD12 . 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brenden Posted June 20, 2017 Author Share Posted June 20, 2017 (edited) Hi Unclekanus .Yes these are polyphenylene sulphide .They are not metallised but superior ofc copper foil . PPS is very close to the quality of polypropylene but much thinner . Much better than mylar . They are also non inductive . The leads are copper and not soldered but either crimped by the foil or spot welded in come way . They are not made any more unfortunately as they are the only copper foil caps small enough to fit around the dacs on the cd 94 mk2 and even then it was tight . These are 0.1uf but there are a couple of rows that are 0.082 uf which are close enough as I could not get any more 0.1uf I did score a bunch of smaller sizes from a guy in Japan ,ideal for digital boards lke the decoder board on the 94 . Edited June 20, 2017 by brenden 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclekanus Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 Hi Brenden, They sound like great caps for the job. And just a nice size also. I believe it's worth having the smaller value caps furthest away from the MSB pin on the dac chip. George would know about that for sure. Did you try any of these little copper foils anywhere else in the digital section? Like on the digital input... .01uf or so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve M Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 Brenden, thanks for the long explanation of the differences between your CD12 and modded CD94. As with all good hifi, the differences are subtle and the players are more similar than not. Steve. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brenden Posted June 20, 2017 Author Share Posted June 20, 2017 Hi Unclekanus. You are correct about the sizing of the caps toward the msb I did experiment a bit and did each row separately starting with the msb . The furthest from the msb affected more of the top end . The msb and the next couple seemed to affect the whole range and those in the middle seemed more sensitive to the mid range. These middle ones are critical to get right as vocal warmth can be swayed depending on cap size and quality . So I found I could get away with smaller sizes on at least the two rows furthest from the msb (most significant bit ) These caps are fabulous on the decoder board .I did one at a time replacing the metallised mylar and every one made a difference . Most striking was the blacker back grounds and reduction in hash .Yo dont even know its there until its gone . A nice copper film polystyrene on the tda1541a usually the 680pf or 470 pf also works a treat . 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclekanus Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 Good to see some love still out there for the old Philips chip. It's definitely still my cup of tea. I've gone up to 4.7uf on the msb, followed by a couple at 1uf and then down to .22/.1uf from there with great results. The caps around the chip all play a part in the sound, that's for sure. The 15v supply pin decoupling cap especially. Try a 22uf k73-16 there with the shortest leads you can manage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brenden Posted June 20, 2017 Author Share Posted June 20, 2017 Thanks Uncle . Its still a work in progress atm . I have a huge array of the best parts available but still keep an open mind . Will have a look at the k73 I love the 1500v auricaps .I have Duelund vsf on the outputs Big size Elna audios where I can fit them . All these changes together make for a very large degree of musical satisfaction. I also prefer non oversampling . The trick is to build this around great gear to start with . The CDM1 transport TDA1541A chips . So for me the best start point to do an all out mod are the cd94 cd95 cd99 cd12 etc . If ever you want any small copper caps to try let me know. I have more parts than some shops lol . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TNETENNBA Posted November 20, 2021 Share Posted November 20, 2021 (edited) Hi All, Just wondering if anyone is still on the topic of the CD-12 system. Found an interesting bug in the DA-12 unit where marantz has actually implemented an error on the PJ16 board. This is the board that has the electrical I/O's. Relating to the three digital coax inputs, SYSTEM 1 & 2 and TAPE IN, there's a transistor circuit configured in differential pairs which serves to bring the SPDIF coax levels (approx. 0.5Vo-p) to HC (TTL) logic levels before interfacing the 74HC153 selector IC. With reference to SYSTEM 1 coax input the schematic diagram in the service manual shows that the input (pin12) of the 74HC153 is connected to the node of Q312 collector and the cathode of D314. The two transistors configured in a differential pair have their emitters tied to -12V (erroneously drawn as ground ) via a 2k7 resistor and the base of Q312 ties to ground. This actually results in a voltage level of -0.5 to 4.5v going to the input of 74HC153. The 4.5 volts is fine but -0.5 volts on the input low side of things is entering the Absolute maximum rating of the HC series logic. Any voltage below -0.5v will start the input clamping current to flow from the IC's input pin. Now in this case it's still quite safe in this circuit as the current is limited by the emitter resistor R313 (2k7) and would never exceed the maximum specified rating of 20mA. The main point observed here is that if they connected the input (pin 12) of 74HC153 to the Anode of D314 instead (of the Cathode), they would have achieved the correct and desirable input voltage range of approx. 0 - 5 Volts and not hitting the -0.5V threshold. This is the case for all three coax digital inputs in the DA-12 unit. I really wonder if the latter is what they really meant achieve. To me it seem to be the case, and it is a circuit implementation stuff up. I really can't figure out any good reason for that circuit to be wired up that way. Anyway, I did a simple mod to my unit to correct the voltage range as above and checked the trace on the scope to see the voltage swing to be between 0.15v input LOW and 4.85v input HIGH avoiding the -ve threshold. Anyway, I wonder if anyone can follow my tech rant maybe it's too much information? Just thought I'd share this with the marantz CD/DA-12 Philips LHH1000 community out there. The mod is quite simple, if anyone is interested. Kind regards, TN Edited November 20, 2021 by TNETENNBA clarification, spelling 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Be Quiet...Listen Posted December 4, 2021 Share Posted December 4, 2021 On 20/11/2021 at 11:14 PM, TNETENNBA said: Hi All, Just wondering if anyone is still on the topic of the CD-12 system. Found an interesting bug in the DA-12 unit where marantz has actually implemented an error on the PJ16 board. This is the board that has the electrical I/O's. Relating to the three digital coax inputs, SYSTEM 1 & 2 and TAPE IN, there's a transistor circuit configured in differential pairs which serves to bring the SPDIF coax levels (approx. 0.5Vo-p) to HC (TTL) logic levels before interfacing the 74HC153 selector IC. With reference to SYSTEM 1 coax input the schematic diagram in the service manual shows that the input (pin12) of the 74HC153 is connected to the node of Q312 collector and the cathode of D314. The two transistors configured in a differential pair have their emitters tied to -12V (erroneously drawn as ground ) via a 2k7 resistor and the base of Q312 ties to ground. This actually results in a voltage level of -0.5 to 4.5v going to the input of 74HC153. The 4.5 volts is fine but -0.5 volts on the input low side of things is entering the Absolute maximum rating of the HC series logic. Any voltage below -0.5v will start the input clamping current to flow from the IC's input pin. Now in this case it's still quite safe in this circuit as the current is limited by the emitter resistor R313 (2k7) and would never exceed the maximum specified rating of 20mA. The main point observed here is that if they connected the input (pin 12) of 74HC153 to the Anode of D314 instead (of the Cathode), they would have achieved the correct and desirable input voltage range of approx. 0 - 5 Volts and not hitting the -0.5V threshold. This is the case for all three coax digital inputs in the DA-12 unit. I really wonder if the latter is what they really meant achieve. To me it seem to be the case, and it is a circuit implementation stuff up. I really can't figure out any good reason for that circuit to be wired up that way. Anyway, I did a simple mod to my unit to correct the voltage range as above and checked the trace on the scope to see the voltage swing to be between 0.15v input LOW and 4.85v input HIGH avoiding the -ve threshold. Anyway, I wonder if anyone can follow my tech rant maybe it's too much information? Just thought I'd share this with the marantz CD/DA-12 Philips LHH1000 community out there. The mod is quite simple, if anyone is interested. Kind regards, TN Ok, I'll bite. What sound difference does that make? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TNETENNBA Posted July 24, 2022 Share Posted July 24, 2022 On 04/12/2021 at 4:54 PM, Be Quiet...Listen said: Ok, I'll bite. What sound difference does that make? Who knows? But it's correct now and satisfies my OCD! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Be Quiet...Listen Posted July 24, 2022 Share Posted July 24, 2022 7 hours ago, TNETENNBA said: Who knows? But it's correct now and satisfies my OCD! So, you cannot provide any insight at all as to the sonic improvements of that mod/correction? But very obviously expect people to commit to undertaking it on blind faith? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted July 24, 2022 Volunteer Share Posted July 24, 2022 32 minutes ago, Be Quiet...Listen said: So, you cannot provide any insight at all as to the sonic improvements of that mod/correction? But very obviously expect people to commit to undertaking it on blind faith? I’m sure you don’t mean it that way, but your post comes across as a tiny bit aggressive. I don’t read any expectation for anyone to perform these mods, and even if there were, no one is being forced to do anything they don’t want to. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Be Quiet...Listen Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 34 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said: I’m sure you don’t mean it that way, but your post comes across as a tiny bit aggressive. I don’t read any expectation for anyone to perform these mods, and even if there were, no one is being forced to do anything they don’t want to. Ok. I guess people can read tone into or out of text. It would not have come across that way in spoken word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muon* Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 I wants Marantz CD12/DA12 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgehifi Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 (edited) On 15/06/2017 at 10:14 PM, brenden said: Hooked up the beautiful Marantz CD12/DA12 up and guess what ? It's still got it . Sounds superb. Of course, it's TDA1541 R2R Multibit, ok it's just a touch lower rez than today's Discrete R2R mulitbit dacs can get, but it's still got the "real" dynamic swing and big rich mids to the music's sound, that Delta Sigma dacs just can't match. Especially when playing "non compressed" original issue cd format music (issues pre 2000). Not "compressed" re-issue after 2000 that are streamed/downloaded to you. Cheers George Edited July 25, 2022 by georgehifi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Be Quiet...Listen Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 8 hours ago, muon* said: I wants Marantz CD12/DA12 They’re a great thing. If you can find one, grab it! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muon* Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 Just now, Be Quiet...Listen said: They’re a great thing. If you can find one, grab it! Out of my budget even if I spot a pair, but I can dream Very happy with my modded CD60 with S1 single crown running nos, I have been very surprised at how much performance these chips have if given a chance (heaps of detail, dynamics and all with a very natural tone). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Be Quiet...Listen Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 Just now, muon* said: Out of my budget even if I spot a pair, but I can dream Very happy with my modded CD60 with S1 single crown running nos, I have been very surprised at how much performance these chips have if given a chance (heaps of detail, dynamics and all with a very natural tone). Agreed. There’s something about those Philips 1541’s 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southerly Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 Uncle kanus, never seen anyone use the superb Russian K73-16 caps in a CDP before. Apart from the absolute transparency of these caps is their small size. I have the modest but superb sounding CD6007. I'm sure that some work on the PSU and selected signal path resistor and cap changes - Z foil smd and K73-16 caps will remove the slight haze to the otherwise excellent sound. In a friend's loft back in the UK I have a Marantz CD63 untouched. Maybe I will visit the UK next year and bring it back to France with me, not sure whether to sell it or check it out and see what mods are rec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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