New House Electricity Pre Planning

[Guest rmpfyf]

I have to admit I have often wondered if there wasn't some smart way to capitalize on all the changes of states from hot to cold. For example an air conditioner uses electricity to pump out cold air but also puts out hot air just like a fridge, a hot water system could use that heat to turn cold water into hot water, if only there was a simple system where the waste energy of one appliance could be utilized as an input for another appliance. Just something that has bugged me for decades.

 

A reversible heat pump with thermal storage is what you're after - does just as you suggest. They're awesome

 

Some examples.... http://www.dimplex.de/fileadmin/dimplex/downloads/produktgruppendatenblatt/en/181-collected_en.pdf

 

The fan convectors (scroll down here http://www.dimplex.de/en/downloads/product-data-sheets/heat-pumps.html)are pretty cool

Edited July 28, 2016 by rmpfyf

[LogicprObe]

A reversible heat pump with thermal storage is what you're after - does just as you suggest. They're awesome

 

Some examples.... http://www.dimplex.de/fileadmin/dimplex/downloads/produktgruppendatenblatt/en/181-collected_en.pdf

 

The fan convectors (scroll down here http://www.dimplex.de/en/downloads/product-data-sheets/heat-pumps.html)are pretty cool

 

How much are these systems?

[Addicted to music]

How much are these systems?

Any heating system introduced into the building has an inherent maintenance cost, which isn't normally added into the price after warranty expire. I should know, having a 3 panel solar hot water, within 18mths I've had a thermistor replaced 3 times. all 3 solar panels replaced because they burst and leaked; the only way you find that out is that there's lawn growing green in your gutters and it cost me $400 as the labour is not covered!... And an electronic gas relay replaced after 5 years. Commercial hot water service are not the most reliable piece of equipment as heat ages metals and associated parts and it becomes fatigue. System like this requires someone with both electrical and plumbing license to carry out the works which is often expensive. The idea is create a home that stays passively cool in summer and warm in winter that requires none of these glorified systems. Nearly all of these systems are built to a price, and all will require maintenance at some stage of its life.

Edited July 28, 2016 by Addicted to music

[Guest rmpfyf]

@@LogicprObe - a hot water only heat pump and tank can be around $3k. Full systems can pass $40k, which is competitive with what needs they displace. Really depends what you're after. 

 

@@Addicted to music - it's really not so bad (the evac tube rigs I've used are pretty robust - sorry you've had a crap experience - my place runs on an eight-year-old single-phase reverse-cycle HVAC system, and the most I've had fail through the unit's own fault is a temperature sensor... all of $28 to replace). I've built and worked on homes that feature extreme orientation and insulation for thermal (and lighting) purposes, and they still require some form of 'glorified systems'. The idea is to require less, not to require nada... human amenity needs see to that! As for building to a price... getting fleeced asides, you pay for what you get, and if you don't use crap you're generally OK. The AU market's seen a proliferation of very cheap aircon and hot water units in the last 10 years - some stuff has given to space a very bad name.

 

Use the sun just as you'd use shade and earth to your thermal advantage. Use thermal storage - it's cheaper, faster and more exacting to react that most load shifting means, and when you get a battery (if you do) you just won't need one as big. I'm a fan of electrification because it can be ultimately nicer to the world, and forces people to be smart about build... had a guy that wanted a gas boiler for his hydronic heating. Initially didn't want a heat pump - they don't boil like his old gas boiler! He'd have to insulate pipes! Yes mate, that lack of insulation, not very smart, but do it right... less waste... less net heat... less energy... etc...

 

(Now I'm very OT).

 

@@Silent Screamer... @Rawl's original suggestions work just fine! If you want to take a leaf out of @@125dBmonster's page to kick things off, would your nephew be able to throw a scope against your mains and post a shot of the results? If something's really really wrong, you'll at least pick it up. 

[Silent Screamer]

@@Silent Screamer... @Rawl's original suggestions work just fine! If you want to take a leaf out of @@125dBmonster's page to kick things off, would your nephew be able to throw a scope against your mains and post a shot of the results? If something's really really wrong, you'll at least pick it up. 

 

Not at this point he can't, as there are no mains, as there is no electricity on the property. The whole point of the post is to find out what I should do now before the house has even been properly drawn up rather than once it is up and everyone starts saying why didn't you do this, or why didn't you do that.

 

I love the idea of being green, but I am even more fond of saving money, and if that means I can realistically not put money in the pockets of the man, that is my main aim.

 

I am open to all ideas but it has to have a clear economic benefit, not just something that looks good on paper and hasn't factored in all the ongoing expenses.

 

It also has to be practical, yes it would be great to have a megawatt windmill in my backyard but it is hardly practical in the real world where you have real neighbours complaining about the whiring noise it makes.

 

My passion is music, any solution must be virtually silent to enjoy the reason I am doing all this, the sound.

[Guest rmpfyf]

@@Silent Screamer you've a point in that this is well and truly OT, apologies.

 

Get PV with a nice indoor electric hot water tank, and a Dimplex Free-E or similar. You won't export much, it'll be cheap, you'll self-consume a ton and you'll have scope for a battery in future. There are characteristic load profiles freely available that you can use to get an idea of what you might be up for in terms of speculative consumption. 

 

Do as suggested with earthing and discrete circuits. Hold the battery funds - they'll pay a regenerator if it's that bad. 

 

I got a slightly audible advantage out of a Thor filter in the meter board. 

 

Plan your network cable routes for a nice NAS 'somewhere else' away from your listening spot.

[Addicted to music]

Just dig a very large hole and built a cave......

I heard that the houses under the ground in WA are immune to environmental factors. Put some large array of PV on top will shield you further..... Sorry, please ignore, couldn't help myself.

[Guest]

@@Silent Screamer you've a point in that this is well and truly OT, apologies.

 

Get PV with a nice indoor electric hot water tank, and a Dimplex Free-E or similar. You won't export much, it'll be cheap, you'll self-consume a ton and you'll have scope for a battery in future. There are characteristic load profiles freely available that you can use to get an idea of what you might be up for in terms of speculative consumption. 

 

Do as suggested with earthing and discrete circuits. Hold the battery funds - they'll pay a regenerator if it's that bad. 

 

I got a slightly audible advantage out of a Thor filter in the meter board. 

 

Plan your network cable routes for a nice NAS 'somewhere else' away from your listening spot.

 

Would this arrangement render a specific solar water heater redundant?

 

I'm constantly amazed that solar hot water is not de rigeur (or even mandatory) on newly built homes.

[Silent Screamer]

But couldn't a regular hot water system be used like an e-system with the use of timer? Or is there some smarts that says stop heating if the array drops below power production?

[Guest rmpfyf]

Would this arrangement render a specific solar water heater redundant?

 

I'm constantly amazed that solar hot water is not de rigeur (or even mandatory) on newly built homes.

 

No... depends on your hot water demand and what your evac tube rig contributes. I like evac tube hot water. Gets a bad rap through shonky installers and some crap tanks occasionally but generally solar hot water pays back very fast, and as you say could/should be on more roofs than it is.. 

 

Such an arrangement just makes better use of your PV. Sized right they can work together, sized right a different way you can have a big PV system and make it work cost-effectively at minimal export. 

 

But couldn't a regular hot water system be used like an e-system with the use of timer? Or is there some smarts that says stop heating if the array drops below power production?

 

As you've deduced there are some smarts - essentially a current clamp on your mains looking at export, and matching your hot water electrode output to the lesser of your electrode limit or what's available. If your thermostat says enough's enough, then it stops doing what it does. Given your average electrode's around ~3kW, this gives some pretty granular graduation of that load rather than a sharp on/off. 

 

A few other vendors have similar kit.

 

You could of course go for more efficient hot water (solar evac tube, or heat pump, or combination thereof, or combined with an electrode, or twin electrodes, or...) lots of possibilities. Doesn't have to be expensive. Run the numbers against hooking up to tariff 31 or 33 (forget what the load incentives are in QLD). You've some nice tariffs up there for load-controlled hot water, stuffing your excess PV into it still wins Worth working out just how much by, however.

 

Not saying batteries aren't good - I reckon they're awesome - more than you want to nut out as much shiftable load as possible. 

 

There are other approaches that are also pretty good. (But I should button up and talk stereos).

[LogicprObe]

@@LogicprObe - a hot water only heat pump and tank can be around $3k. Full systems can pass $40k, which is competitive with what needs they displace. Really depends what you're after. 

 

@@Addicted to music - it's really not so bad (the evac tube rigs I've used are pretty robust - sorry you've had a crap experience - my place runs on an eight-year-old single-phase reverse-cycle HVAC system, and the most I've had fail through the unit's own fault is a temperature sensor... all of $28 to replace). I've built and worked on homes that feature extreme orientation and insulation for thermal (and lighting) purposes, and they still require some form of 'glorified systems'. The idea is to require less, not to require nada... human amenity needs see to that! As for building to a price... getting fleeced asides, you pay for what you get, and if you don't use crap you're generally OK. The AU market's seen a proliferation of very cheap aircon and hot water units in the last 10 years - some stuff has given to space a very bad name.

 

Use the sun just as you'd use shade and earth to your thermal advantage. Use thermal storage - it's cheaper, faster and more exacting to react that most load shifting means, and when you get a battery (if you do) you just won't need one as big. I'm a fan of electrification because it can be ultimately nicer to the world, and forces people to be smart about build... had a guy that wanted a gas boiler for his hydronic heating. Initially didn't want a heat pump - they don't boil like his old gas boiler! He'd have to insulate pipes! Yes mate, that lack of insulation, not very smart, but do it right... less waste... less net heat... less energy... etc...

 

(Now I'm very OT).

 

@@Silent Screamer... @Rawl's original suggestions work just fine! If you want to take a leaf out of @@125dBmonster's page to kick things off, would your nephew be able to throw a scope against your mains and post a shot of the results? If something's really really wrong, you'll at least pick it up. 

 

$28 to replace?

Most call out fees that I've seen are like $150.

[Guest]

I see Heat Pump HW set ups costing big, normally poo themselves 5 seconds out of warranty, 

Edited July 29, 2016 by Guest

[Guest rmpfyf]

$28 to replace?

Most call out fees that I've seen are like $150.

 

Easy enough to fix yourself - less complex than most audio gear, pretty straightforwards to diagnose.

 

I see Heat Pump HW set ups costing big, normally poo themselves 5 seconds out of warranty, 

 

I see 'em going strong past a decade here - longer overseas... you pay for what you get. 

[LogicprObe]

I think in NSW it is illegal to fix it yourself.

[Guest rmpfyf]

I think in NSW it is illegal to fix it yourself.

 

I'd imagine working on a refrigerant system is absolutely illegal unless you're a licensed operator and can reclaim and regas appropriately.

 

Just the electronics - wouldn't imagine it's an issue. Happy to be corrected.

[Addicted to music]

$28 to replace?

Most call out fees that I've seen are like $150.

I see Heat Pump HW set ups costing big, normally poo themselves 5 seconds out of warranty,

It cost me $400 to replace a single solar hot water panel while it was under warranty. The panel had a 5 year warranty but the fine print said that the labour isn't covered. You can't argue with them when water is constantly pissing out into the roof gutter and creating a green oasis. You need that replaced instantly when you are aware of it!

It cost me just under $300 to have the electronic gas relay to be replaced. Obviously due to the nature of solar it's difficult to tell when the gas booster failed, your realisation is when the sun don't shine no more; Suddenly you get cold showers

The thermostat I had go 3 times outside warranty was replaced free of charge every time, after I kicked up a stink and made some loud noises, I asked them to lower the temperature setting so it doesn't trip that thermostat, apparently it was calibrated to stop pumping from the panel set at 90 degreeC the thermostat trips at 95degree C. That's way to close to threshold especially when you are talking about the nature of heat, I asked them to set the pump to stop at 80 degrees, hence no more thermostat failures. But changing this settings increases gas usage!

And here is another fine print on solar panels, they don't mentioned or highlight in there advertising; during cold frosty weather below 4 degree C there is a valve that trips and it allows water to cycle through the panels and then out into the roof gutters; that's to stop there brittle characteristics from cracking under low temperature. So during very cold Melbourne mornings, my daughter complains hearing a stream of water flowing in the roof! There you go, nice drinking grade tap water, down the drains! Perfect! No wonder my water bill is high during winter! What's this thing about being sustainable and environmentally friendly by using the sun?

And yep, it's illegal to do any plumbing on water and gas works that's fixed to the building providing utilities, you need someone lisence to do the works in Victoria, that includes electrical as well.

But of course in Victoria, it's now compulsory to have solar hot water system for a new building, and or a water tank installed so it's plumbed to the toilets and laundry.....rant over!

Edited July 29, 2016 by Addicted to music

[Guest]

It cost me $400 to replace a single solar hot water panel while it was under warranty. The panel had a 5 year warranty but the fine print said that the labour isn't covered. You can't argue with them when water is constantly pissing out into the roof gutter and creating a green oasis. You need that replaced instantly when you are aware of it!

It cost me just under $300 to have the electronic gas relay to be replaced. Obviously due to the nature of solar it's difficult to tell when the gas booster failed, your realisation is when the sun don't shine no more; Suddenly you get cold showers

The thermostat I had go 3 times outside warranty was replaced free of charge every time, after I kicked up a stink and made some loud noises, I asked them to lower the temperature setting so it doesn't trip that thermostat, apparently it was calibrated to stop pumping from the panel set at 90 degreeC the thermostat trips at 95degree C. That's way to close to threshold especially when you are talking about the nature of heat, I asked them to set the pump to stop at 80 degrees, hence no more thermostat failures. But changing this settings increases gas usage!

And here is another fine print on solar panels, they don't mentioned or highlight in there advertising; during cold frosty weather below 4 degree C there is a valve that trips and it allows water to cycle through the panels and then out into the roof gutters; that's to stop there brittle characteristics from cracking under low temperature. So during very cold Melbourne mornings, my daughter complains hearing a stream of water flowing in the roof! There you go, nice drinking grade tap water, down the drains! Perfect! No wonder my water bill is high during winter! What's this thing about being sustainable and environmentally friendly by using the sun?

And yep, it's illegal to do any plumbing on water and gas works that's fixed to the building providing utilities, you need someone lisence to do the works in Victoria, that includes electrical as well.

But of course in Victoria, it's now compulsory to have solar hot water system for a new building, and or a water tank installed so it's plumbed to the toilets and laundry.....rant over!

Being at the sharp edge of the wedge for service, seeing similar sorts of things.

The most reliable seems to be the retro fit cylinder with evac tubes as it is modular and minimal components. Brass body pump is essential, other than that I fit a relay switched externally from the controller for electric heater element so as the relay on control "brain" of the system doesn't burn out after 3 years. Easier to C/O a relay and base rather than the controller card.

Rant recognized as reasonable in this case.

[Guest rmpfyf]

Being at the sharp edge of the wedge for service, seeing similar sorts of things.

The most reliable seems to be the retro fit cylinder with evac tubes as it is modular and minimal components. Brass body pump is essential, other than that I fit a relay switched externally from the controller for electric heater element so as the relay on control "brain" of the system doesn't burn out after 3 years. Easier to C/O a relay and base rather than the controller card.

Rant recognized as reasonable in this case.

 

Don't disagree. Have seen some absolute shockers re evac tube hot water. If you want to do it *right* it's very hard - most enamel-coated tanks don't stand up to peak temps out of an evac tube system, which can run to boiling. The last system we'd provisioned had a very decent Australian-made stainless steel tank... very difficult to source as the company involved had just gone out of business I've seen complete kits out of China with a cost price of ~$1500 or so... you pay for what you get. 

 

In Vic you can go greywater in lieu of solar-boosted hot water. 

 

I'd honestly prefer the roof space for solar panels, and using any excess to heat your hot water electrically. It's pretty easy to implement with an electrode in a hot water tank, it's a bit tricker to drive other means but a kit that ties your excess PV to your hot water and stores it somewhere with low decay (e.g. a good tank, preferably indoors) is a win IMHO. Not ultimately as efficient as evac tube hot water, but it's quiet, no moving parts, less thermal stress, cheaper to get into good quality kit (not least as you're reusing your PV), doesn't affect your off-peak tariff eligibility in any state (QLD included), keeps the DNSPs happier, works happily with your export control...

 

...aaaaaaaaaaand no offence to anyone here, but I'd rather deal with sparkies and solar installers than plumbers

[Addicted to music]

Yes, grey water, so you need a tank, OK, where does this water come from? When it rains, and then it's pumped to the toilets or your laundry. So how do we deal with the bird poo? . You don't....really.

In some new estates they actually hidden the tank, where? Underground.... Well don't go parking on top of it.... Really have to point that out for rentals...

When you build with volume builders you don't get a choice, it's the product they endorse and are in partner with manufacturers or suppliers to enable low cost to the consumer. Outside that contract if you decided to take something out its not worth anything, if you decide to put something in they've got you by the balls to hand over cash. And yep, some of those solar products you pay thousands for, 3 panels on a roof and a gas hot water system would set you back $9K in 2005-2007. Most sound great on white paper, but in new estates where I am in that period, all you have to do is drive around and you can see panels leaking everywhere on roofs. Possible all from the same manufacturer, all from the same model and batch.

[Guest rmpfyf]

Yes, grey water, so you need a tank, OK, where does this water come from? When it rains, and then it's pumped to the toilets or your laundry. So how do we deal with the bird poo? . You don't....really.

In some new estates they actually hidden the tank, where? Underground.... Well don't go parking on top of it... . Really have to point that out for rentals...

When you build with volume builders you don't get a choice, it's the product they endorse and are in partner with manufacturers or suppliers to enable low cost to the consumer. Outside that contract if you decided to take something out its not worth anything, if you decide to put something in they've got you by the balls to hand over cash. And yep, some of those solar products you pay thousands for, 3 panels on a roof and a gas hot water system would set you back $9K in 2005-2007. Most sound great on white paper, but in new estates where I am in that period, all you have to do is drive around and you can see panels leaking everywhere on roofs. Possible all from the same manufacturer, all from the same model and batch.

 

I take your point, though not to the limit suggested. If you're building to a budget with a volume builder, beware pitfalls everywhere. Not just for what's in their supply chain to hit a six star build requirement. 

 

You can recycle water safely, passively. You can put tanks outdoor or underground safely.  You can get good solar PV and hot water systems. 

 

It's a bit like saying you can get a great builder, you can get a crap builder, and you can do either and either end of the cost spectrum. Or as though every PV system ever installed featured on Crap Solar (have a look on FB if you're not familiar).

 

I don't agree with six-star requirements in Victoria (getting really OT here). They miss a few opportunities. Like most things, it's a scheme built of good intentions and partisan interests alike. But there's plenty of people with compliant homes that cost bugger-all to run and not so much more in build. Just do your research, make informed decisions and move forwards. Like the OP.

[LogicprObe]

Don't disagree. Have seen some absolute shockers re evac tube hot water. If you want to do it *right* it's very hard - most enamel-coated tanks don't stand up to peak temps out of an evac tube system, which can run to boiling. The last system we'd provisioned had a very decent Australian-made stainless steel tank... very difficult to source as the company involved had just gone out of business I've seen complete kits out of China with a cost price of ~$1500 or so... you pay for what you get. 

 

In Vic you can go greywater in lieu of solar-boosted hot water. 

 

I'd honestly prefer the roof space for solar panels, and using any excess to heat your hot water electrically. It's pretty easy to implement with an electrode in a hot water tank, it's a bit tricker to drive other means but a kit that ties your excess PV to your hot water and stores it somewhere with low decay (e.g. a good tank, preferably indoors) is a win IMHO. Not ultimately as efficient as evac tube hot water, but it's quiet, no moving parts, less thermal stress, cheaper to get into good quality kit (not least as you're reusing your PV), doesn't affect your off-peak tariff eligibility in any state (QLD included), keeps the DNSPs happier, works happily with your export control...

 

...aaaaaaaaaaand no offence to anyone here, but I'd rather deal with sparkies and solar installers than plumbers

 

Yes...........it's probably better to use the solar juice to heat water through the day when you're at work than feed it back into the grid.

[Silent Screamer]

While we are completely off topic with grey water, here is a picture of an idea I had for watering the garden.

 

The crap / toilet water I figure is desirable to put straight into the sewerage pipe (not planing on opening my own sewerage treatment plant), but the waste water from showers, baths, hand basins could potentially be used on the garden. I figure using an underground tank I could fill the underground tank to be pumped onto the garden but once it is full, have the water automatically divert into the sewerage line as it normally would.

Edited July 30, 2016 by Silent Screamer

[Guest rmpfyf]

Good thinking @@Silent Screamer. Consider hooking up your toilets as you'd be surprised what they cost to run (particularly in a family home).

 

As to the semantics of what's possible should chip in... I'm no grey water expert.

[agisthos]

If you are building a new house and doing a custom A/V power setup, you should not just focus on getting isolated power, but separating the ground from the rest of the power system.

Apparently it gives a bigger improvement than anything.

 

Use an industrial grounding system. You can get this done for 1k or so. Its not too expensive to do right.

 

http://www.lightningprotection.com/chem-rod-2/

 

https://www.erico.com/category.asp?category=R2500

 

Edited July 31, 2016 by agisthos

[Silent Screamer]

Just a thought... I had a soil test done on the property the other day, and while the soil itself was not too reactive (M), the ground was naturally very damp 19.5%.

 

Would this natural wetness create a better or worse ground?

 

Edit:

Just rationalizing this out... If water is a good conductor of electricity (which it is) this excess dampness may actually be a blessing in disguise

Edited July 31, 2016 by Silent Screamer