It kind of makes sense that coherency with shallow slopes, at least when listened to nearfield. Imaging being one meter away from some Avantgarde Trios where the drivers are about a meter apart, obviously each driver would sound like a disparate sound source if you had infinitely steep crossovers like the DEQX 300db/octave. But with a first order crossover each driver is playing an similar(?) signal in the 2 octave overlap (minus 6db is still pretty audible) with the driver above/bellow it. Where there is overlap there will be a single sound source, a phantom 'center', exactly between each driver as the drivers and listener are in the typical isosceles triangle, and at every point between the drivers helping to blend the drivers together. At least thats how I imagine it working.

I'm hoping to get away with firing my 4-ways across the width of my room, only 3.3m to listening seat, and will experiment with shallower slopes to see if it helps in this regard.

You explanation does make sense. Although this principle acts contrary to what I understand is the current popular preferred method of xo with multiple drivers?

That's a sweep of the signal crossover on the Left channel (Right channel is nearly indentical) through each individual band. Certainly an interesting approach that works well with the GOTO drivers

Interesting graph. Doesnt look like the orange lower mid contributes much hey. What are the XO points?

What do you understand is the current popular preferred method of xo with multiple drivers? You saying steeper slope are generally more popular? I imagine if you sit far enough away from big horns so the 'viewing angle' between horns approaches that of a conventional mid/tweeter in a bookshelf from a typical 3m, then integration issues disappear even with brick wall filters. Then I think the steep slopes have the advantage of both lower distortion and less comb filtering between drivers. But this distance might be bigger than most rooms reasonably allow.

I just wrote Avantgarde to ask nicely what minimum distance they recommend for their trios, they said 2.7m for strait frame and 3.3 for curved, and sent me a bunch of photos of these nearfield setups, so thats pretty promising.

Finished one speaker, havent listen yet. Not sure the price I pay blocking a fair bit of the lower mid horn...if I spread them out I'd probably need to sit further away, and it wouldnt look as 'compact'. What you guys reckon?

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XO points on the GOTO CF-1 unit has written with permanent texter 400hz, 1.2khz, 6khz (6db).

From reading on various places, it does seem that steeper slopes are generally more popular. Possibly not just for the sound quality but to also protect the drivers by not letting it run outside its usual frequency range?

That's very promising to know about minimum seating distance. Gives me some hope of my setup sounding okay as I'll be sitting 2.5-3m away.

Looking good Bev. Damn that 160hz horn is a big mofo.

That looks pretty sweet mate, great work.

Can't wait to read your thoughts on them once you have them both up and running.

Finished one speaker, havent listen yet. Not sure the price I pay blocking a fair bit of the lower mid horn...if I spread them out I'd probably need to sit further away, and it wouldnt look as 'compact'. What you guys reckon?

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Hi b.d

Looking good, what driver you had as mid-low? it looks bit short for a 150hz horn

Regarding the slope, thats an older GOTO CF-1 crossover, its meant for older spec driver with different XO slope. The current EPH4001 crossover will have much more mid-low coverage, the XO frequency for mid-low is 200hz - 1000hz.

Cheers,

Jayden

I've recently become a big fan of very steep X-overs with Klipsch horns (ALK Engineering's Extreme Slope networks). Recent experience has convinced me that the advantages greatly outweigh any disadvantages, like the music "jumping" from driver to driver with (very) near-field listening and perhaps a slight lack of artificial warmth and fullness at low levels from driver overlap. ALK's take on this is it's like singing in the shower - might sound OK, but it's "wrong".

Anyway, I prefer a speaker that "comes together" as the volume is increased rather than one that "falls apart" - and I think this is often best achieved with the help of very steep X-overs.

When I get some time, I'll post some stuff about my recent exploits with various X-overs, horns and drivers in the old Klipsch Belles. Not esoteric like some of the horns in this thread, but it's proving to be a great learning experience.

Cheers

Tony

Yoshio, its a 5" Faital Pro M5N12-80 in a 4" throat. I might get a 4" to 2" adapter to try a compression driver in it one day (though there arent many to that play low enough) and then it does end up being pretty long.

Want to also try a 4" Fostex FE127E in the big horn and run it fullrange to see how a simple 2-way compares to the 4-way.

b.d that is interesting, the driver actually looks more like a convention cone, but meant for horn loading?

Yes, you are right, Not much compression driver in the market that able to play down to 100hz - 200hz region.

Horn loading a fullranger will somehow skew its frequency response and running it higher or lower than the horn cutoff will almost always generate the honk sound. But having say that, its still fun to try it out and compare the two.

Jayden

Odeon horn, massive in size, weight over a ton, for diehard horn lovers

Odeon horn, massive in size, weight over a ton, for diehard horn lovers

Have you heard this system Jack? Why speaker manufacturers insist on mounting high frequency transducers so far above seated ear height is beyond my reasoning. Also hard to believe that those horns are physically time aligned. They certainly look impressive and that is probably enough for 99% of audiophiles.

YS

Gorgeous horns there Jack, made from turned wood as well. Must have cost him a pretty penny to get a horn that size turned from a solid chunk of wood! Pretty tasty looking electronics in the background as well ... I think I see a Wavac power amp, Kuzma Stabi Reference TT with Air-Line tonearm, Zanden preamp, and MF KW CDP?

I think that is a Wavac preamp Keith, can't see the phono preamp (most important component in the analog playback chain). You forgot to mention the dCS digital stack as well. Of course, having lots of money to spend on audio equipment does not guarantee an acceptable sonic result and one could argue that it gives you many more options to screw things up.

YS

Sharp eyes ... yes that is a DCS stack. I was squinting at it and I wasn't sure. And I have no idea why you are being so negative about the system, YS ... at least give it the benefit of the doubt until you have a listen.

Have you heard this system Jack? Why speaker manufacturers insist on mounting high frequency transducers so far above seated ear height is beyond my reasoning. Also hard to believe that those horns are physically time aligned. They certainly look impressive and that is probably enough for 99% of audiophiles.

YS

Hi YS,

No, I have not heard the big one but have heard the smaller sibling a few years ago when I was considering going horns. The small ones sounded less open compared to the Trio and less coherent than the Westminster.

Since this is a flagship model, the goal is clear. Only the best will do and no barrier is too high and first impression counts.

With big horns like this or even my small Trio and Westminsters, I have to move my chair back by a metre or more in order to have the phase alignment right. Sitting too close tends to sound very edgy and weak in mid and bass as the tweeters are the first to hit your eardrums. So, a room with at least 7-8 metres is minimum if you want to use horns.

I also notice the high ceiling helps to reduce the harsh sound as high frequencies get time and space to dissipate more evenly rather than reflecting back to your ears sooner than the rest.

This afternoon, I started working on my Trios in the new room, it will be a while before I can dial in the setting.

Sharp eyes ... yes that is a DCS stack. I was squinting at it and I wasn't sure. And I have no idea why you are being so negative about the system, YS ... at least give it the benefit of the doubt until you have a listen.

Sorry Keith, there are many things fundamentally wrong with the design and implementation of that particular expensive loudspeaker, at least from a theoretical perspective, but you are right, I will reserve any further judgement on whether or not the laws of physics applies until I listen. Most audiophiles listen with their eyes anyway.

Looking forward to hearing the AG Trios once you have them optimised within the new room Jack.

YS

It can be surprising how many rules you can break and still get good if not exceptional sound. We often settle on ideas and beliefs before we've tested them. Sometimes the internet confirms those ideas when we discuss with others who have the same untested beliefs!

When I look at those big horns, I wonder if I'm going to get sucked into a wormhole or a time warp!

MASSIVE is an understatement. Until I saw those speakers with the people standing between them I had no idea how big they were

Something about those speakers reminds me of this character ... anyone know who he is?

Day Of The Tentacle!

Most audiophiles listen with their eyes anyway.

YS

Hee hee, it strikes me that you may have indulged in exactly that!

Thinks of hoisting with own petard...

there are many things fundamentally wrong with the design and implementation of that particular expensive loudspeaker, at least from a theoretical perspective,

YS

Could you say a bit more on this YS?

Cheers

Hi Jack

Do you know what type of cross over is used in the Odeon horn ,looks like Odeon know what type of driver set up is needed for the lower register .

Cheers

Mal