Paul R Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Hi Forum Would appreciate some wisdom from experience about bi-amping. It isn't a conundrum, but something that we'd like some thought on. Our previous speakers were Mike Kontor's Maestros drive by VTL 300 Deluxe monoblocks (KT90s in triode mode). As the Maestros' had their own plate amplifier for the woofers, there was never a shortage of bass and sub-bass. In our room, the bass seeming went down to 20Hz. We now have the Aurum Cantus New Grand Supremes, which we love. But we miss the bass down to 20Hz and lower. We do not wish to change the power amplifiers as we are perfectly happy with the SQ. Could bi-amping sort the bass out? If bi-amping is the way forward, would a class D 'powerhouse' be the simplest solution? Alternatively, I guess a sub-woofer could be the solution? AND then a single unit or two units? The VTL preamplifier has two sets of outputs so driving the sub-woofers might not be a problem. Thoughts, suggestions, rants and raves welcome. Paul R 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul R Posted October 30, 2014 Author Share Posted October 30, 2014 (edited) No advice or thoughts. I guess I'll put this in the too hard basket. And just meander on my own. Thanx all the same. Edited October 30, 2014 by Paul R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coppinger Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Paul, the bi-amping question gets asked a lot, so do forgive people for not replying with much haste... to bi-amp properly you require a crossover device. You would need to set one up to get any benefit and it is NOT quick and easy. A big solid state amp would be a starting point for the bass component, but do not disregard smaller units.. 80 quality watts most likely will beat 200 PA watts, but that is a personal opinion Alternatively, a sub woofer would normally have it's own in built crossover. You can certainly get away with one sub woofer, but most people favour two. read this article for a start http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Paul.... There's no general answer. If your current power amplifier is not driving the bass of your speaker correctly..... and you have the option to drive the bass of your speaker completely seperately.... then you could put an amplifier on your bass which drives it better. You need to work out of your current power amplifier is the culprit..... before we can tell you if replacing it with something else is worth while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Spencer Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 This speaker? http://www.aurumcantus.com/aurumcantu-loudspeaker/loudspeaker_supreme.htm With the crossover at 110 Hz, they are like built in subs, but the problem is that sometimes when you put a speaker where it works best overall, the bass can be lacking. An extreme example of this was a client with large speakers with dual 12" bass drivers, yet he had a lack of bass response. It's the last thing you expect but it can happen through no fault of the speakers. There are various ways to tackle this issue. The simplest solution is to add one or a number of subwoofers, leaving your mains as they are and simply adding the missing bass. How many? Impossible to say. For a single listening position, I usually find that one or two subs get as close to the ideal as you can get. One optimally placed with measurements is usually better than two placed by guesswork or by ear. This is the simplest solution, but it isn't without some challenges. The active option is more involved. Actively bi-amping your speakers will increase the headroom of your amplifier a little and the woofers could benefit from being driven with more power. This potentially offers an overall improvement, but you would have to mess with the passive crossover. This can get fairly involved. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwhouston Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 I use a DIY 300B to drive full range 2-ways and a Tripath Class D amp to drive my stereo subwoofers via an electronic Xover. Works well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 problem is that sometimes when you put a speaker where it works best overall, the bass can be lacking. First step is to decide if the current amplifier is the cause of the bass (by checking nothing else - like placement - is the culprit) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hifiplus Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 I don't advise using different amplifiers in biamping due to different gain structure. I would add a subwoofer to augment the bass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckles Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 Hi, Anyone heard much of Mike Kontor lately? I left Melbourne in 1998 and know that Mike closed his shop sometime later. Just curious really...spent plenty of cash over a period of time. Cheers Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul R Posted November 10, 2014 Author Share Posted November 10, 2014 (edited) Thanks to all for the suggestions and advice. I think I will explore the subwoofer path and will seriously look at Rythmik as this appears to be the only type that has a high pass filter around 30Hz (correct me if I am wrong!). As for Mike Kontor, Mike has been happily retired for a number of years in the Ballarat District (Victoria). Once again, thanks for the advice, it is appreciated. But NO Paul Spencer, those are not the Aurum Cantus speakers we own! We bought the New Grand Supremes with an rear firing ribbon tweeter as well. Quite different. Paul Rozario Edited November 11, 2014 by Paul R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stedes Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 I don't advise using different amplifiers in biamping due to different gain structure. I would add a subwoofer to augment the bass. +1 on this and also the crossover problems and complexity. If you want to keep your existing sound signature provided by your power amp then I would just see what a subwoofer would do. My experience in the past with small floorstanders (much smaller than the Canti) is that it made one hell of a difference, not just to bass extension, but also to improving other aspects of the sound as well. Good luck and keep us posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacewise Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Placement has been mentioned. Is the bass response going to increase if Paul R moves his speakers closer to corners or a wall? +1 for stereo subs, it's a whole new world of music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanta911 Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 (edited) Placement has been mentioned. Is the bass response going to increase if Paul R moves his speakers closer to corners or a wall? Yes you are right, placement has been mentioned but not by the OP. I found that messing around with speaker placement and changing listening positions had a major effect on bass response in my room with my 803s. I assume that the OP is considering bi amping and/or subs because he has exhausted placement options or doesn't have the flexibility to do so? (or maybe not ) Edited November 11, 2014 by wanta911 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aechmea Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 A bit late to this thread but anyway ... Spend $150 to buy a microphone and mic/computer interface, and use free software (REW). Then one can find out exactly what is happening in the room. Mess with positioning first. It's free and is likely to solve the problem; bearing in mind that the best position for imaging is rarely the best position for bass. Bi-amping will not achieve the sort of improvement that you are looking for. A sub will need some sort of integration device (DSP) if it is to be done properly. One properly positioned sub will do 80% of the job. This will probably be good enough if you choose to go the sub route. A second sub will do another 10 - 15%. ---------- I notice that 30Hz is mentioned. IME that is too low. There is no worthwhile musical material below 30 (other than AndyR's organ pipes) so your sub will have nothing useful to do. I would be looking at 60 or 80 for the main/sub crossover. Bass perceived as 'good' and 'tight' is more likely to be a well-controlled 80 - 160Hz, so it's pretty important to get that right. Extension is fine except when it becomes a boom-room. Just my ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vwo60 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 (edited) HI Paul, I have the same speakers but drive them with a Hacro MC 20, the base in my room is what I expect from the speakers in my room, It is very tight and clean with great attack, I have just placed an order with Edward at Adelaide speakers for two 15" single driver subwoofers, (1550DLT) http://www.adelaidespeakers.com/subwoofers.html I have upgraded the drive units to SB acoustics units and have attempted to colour match them for me, Both subs will cost $4150 delivered, I have already had a set of his 10" subs and they worked very with my previous speakers. they are great value for money and Edward is a pleasure to do business with, has great knowledge and will go out of his way to build something for you, on another note I have just bought a set of Audiosmile super tweeters are very well worth the money. They also respond to bi wiring. Edited November 12, 2014 by vwo60 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhobba Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Could bi-amping sort the bass out? If bi-amping is the way forward, would a class D 'powerhouse' be the simplest solution? It may sort the bass out - or not. The speakers I had 15 years ago, Axis LS88s, responded very well to bi-amping. But they went down to 2 ohms at crossover - a tough load for any amp. A Rotel 5 channel amp sounded better biamped than an ME amp non biamped - and the ME is a way better amp. Of course ME's bi-amped would have likely been better again - but pricey. No easy answer hear - you need to do some experimentation like I did with my LS88's. Thanks Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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