I am a 69 year old public servant from Canberra. I will retire next year. I have been a singer-songwriter for longer than I care to remember, and more recently I’ve been teaching myself jazz-blues piano. I have plans to retire upgrade my small home studio, and I’m quite clear about what’s needed, EXCEPT for acoustic treatment! Up until recently my intention was to take a well informed (GIF - Dennis Foley) approach with lots of Bass trapping and perhaps a modest amount of diffusion on the rear wall. However, after reading an article by Matt’s Odemalm called Forest Acoustics - Diffuser Design I am not so sure. I’d like to learn more about the 3-wing approach, particularly in small rooms (10’ x 11’ x 8’) and I’d also like to find a distributor I can buy from in Australia, or at least reliably import from. 
Great to join up with like minded souls. Danny Farrow

Have a look primacoustic stuff.  

In a dedicated studio, I normally recommend 3 things to my clients:

 

1. As much bass trapping as you can get

2. Absorption for first reflection points

3. Diffusion as icing on the cake

 

Actually there's quite a bit more to it than that, but this is a good start.

I actually would not recommend absorbing the first reflection point in a stereo system. Yes you will dramatically tighten the sound, with crystal clear vocals, but you will also collapse the soundstage which is critical for a stereo system & so a mistake IMO. Diffusing the sound in the horizontal plane (not randomising) will reduce the first reflection enough for your brain to interpret it as a reflection, but eliminate the issues. You will still get the above tightening of sound & vocals, but the soundstage will remain large.

Diffusion in large areas is also not recommended. In large areas diffusers actually lose their diffusion. Many diffusers will also change phase/timing of the sound, basically there are clearly defined rules which I see broken a lot, like siting within 1m of certain randomising diffusers in home cinemas. The reality is that a really well designed acoustic solution will look horrible, as blanket treatment solutions are always incorrect. In acoustics, you are dealing with specific problems that require various treatment solutions.

Many bass traps are also absorbers. It is very easy to deaden a room. The treatments should be specific to their role and also room volume.

You’ve likely done a fair bit of reading, you just need a push in the right direction. You’ll have time to experiment & decide on the type of sound you like.

On 25/6/2022 at 12:51 PM, Wavetrain said:

I actually would not recommend absorbing the first reflection point in a stereo system. Yes you will dramatically tighten the sound, with crystal clear vocals, but you will also collapse the soundstage which is critical for a stereo system & so a mistake IMO. Diffusing the sound in the horizontal plane (not randomising) will reduce the first reflection enough for your brain to interpret it as a reflection, but eliminate the issues. You will still get the above tightening of sound & vocals, but the soundstage will remain large.

That’s very interesting.

 

So looking at my room setup, would you suggest replacing the absorption panels at the first reflection point by diffusing pannels? Note that the speakers and pannels positionning were not adjusted when this picture was taken. There is about 30% of the wall surface areas that are covered by panels. It has tamed the room as it was painfully bright. But the soundstage does not extend pass the walls. If swapping for diffusors would expand the soundstage passed the side walls, I’ll definitely try.

 

The size of the room is not ideal at 3.5m wide by 5.5m long. It’s awesome when listening in near field (incredibly immersive) but I end up having to swap the listening position depending if I am listening to my 2 ch system or my 11.2 system.

 

 

6 hours ago, Colonel Sanders said:

That’s very interesting.

 

So looking at my room setup, would you suggest replacing the absorption panels at the first reflection point by diffusing pannels? Note that the speakers and pannels positionning were not adjusted when this picture was taken. There is about 30% of the wall surface areas that are covered by panels. It has tamed the room as it was painfully bright. But the soundstage does not extend pass the walls. If swapping for diffusors would expand the soundstage passed the side walls, I’ll definitely try.

 

The size of the room is not ideal at 3.5m wide by 5.5m long. It’s awesome when listening in near field (incredibly immersive) but I end up having to swap the listening position depending if I am listening to my 2 ch system or my 11.2 system.

 

 

You have a fair bit a reasonably good gear, so I am going to assume you don't mind getting the correct products to get a much better result.

 

I would do the following:

 

* Move your LCR speakers to centre of the ceiling height to the centre of the speaker & install an acoustically transparent screen over the top - your screen is too high anyway. Put absorption board between the LCR speakers -100mm thick.

* Remove the first & third absorber panels and replace with diffusion like an Artnovion Douro - this is on the assumption that you will leave the stereo speakers forward so that the first reflection point is a diffuser.

* I would put 3D diffusion on the ceiling just above your head position. Artonovion Myrion E would suit.

* If you are up against the rear wall, then put one of your 1st reflection panels horizontal on the rear wall starting approx 900mm off the FFL or above the couch.

* Put 3D diffusion on the side wall in line with the head on the side walls.

* You would also benefit with a row of 1st reflection absorber/Diffusers on the ceiling (approx half way between your front wall and your head - assuming you raised the LCR speakers). Something like Artnovion Verona, which offer 3D diffusion. This partly that your rug is not really thick enough.

 

Do that and report back. I work a bit with Rogue Home Cinema in Peth, so give them a call. Scott will contact me if he needs to confirm details. He would have everything you need.

 

Do all of that and both your surround sound and stereo will improve dramatically. I can't understate the difference.

 

Can't see enough of the room, so the rear of the room is a guess. With the LCR & Stereo detached, you will never be able to balance the phase correctly to couple with both sets of speakers. A Pre amp with presets where you can alter the delay would assist with that. The best for surround is the StormAudio Core if you can afford it, which could also act as your stereo Pre amp. You would have enough channels to have the stereo speakers wired in as well.

 

David

2 hours ago, Wavetrain said:

You have a fair bit a reasonably good gear, so I am going to assume you don't mind getting the correct products to get a much better result.

 

I would do the following:

 

* Move your LCR speakers to centre of the ceiling height to the centre of the speaker & install an acoustically transparent screen over the top - your screen is too high anyway. Put absorption board between the LCR speakers -100mm thick.

* Remove the first & third absorber panels and replace with diffusion like an Artnovion Douro - this is on the assumption that you will leave the stereo speakers forward so that the first reflection point is a diffuser.

* I would put 3D diffusion on the ceiling just above your head position. Artonovion Myrion E would suit.

* If you are up against the rear wall, then put one of your 1st reflection panels horizontal on the rear wall starting approx 900mm off the FFL or above the couch.

* Put 3D diffusion on the side wall in line with the head on the side walls.

* You would also benefit with a row of 1st reflection absorber/Diffusers on the ceiling (approx half way between your front wall and your head - assuming you raised the LCR speakers). Something like Artnovion Verona, which offer 3D diffusion. This partly that your rug is not really thick enough.

 

Do that and report back. I work a bit with Rogue Home Cinema in Peth, so give them a call. Scott will contact me if he needs to confirm details. He would have everything you need.

 

Do all of that and both your surround sound and stereo will improve dramatically. I can't understate the difference.

 

Can't see enough of the room, so the rear of the room is a guess. With the LCR & Stereo detached, you will never be able to balance the phase correctly to couple with both sets of speakers. A Pre amp with presets where you can alter the delay would assist with that. The best for surround is the StormAudio Core if you can afford it, which could also act as your stereo Pre amp. You would have enough channels to have the stereo speakers wired in as well.

 

David

Thanks, this is very interesting!

 

That’s what the back of the room looks like. I’m not really into the HT setup. I don’t think the room is leading itself to host a decent HT setup, especially for the surround speakers (back and rear). But probably more important than this, I’m not a movie buff and the movies I enjoy watching (mostly french movies) do not have the soundtrack as their main feature of interest. This being said, I’m planning to get an acoustically transparent screen to hide the LCR.

 

I’m really looking to acoustically “remove” the side walls when I listen to my 2 Ch setup so the soundstage expand in width. Depth is quite nice currently with the speaker about 2 m from the front wall. I’m sitting about 1.5m from the back wall.
 

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, Colonel Sanders said:

Thanks, this is very interesting!

 

That’s what the back of the room looks like. I’m not really into the HT setup. I don’t think the room is leading itself to host a decent HT setup, especially for the surround speakers (back and rear). But probably more important than this, I’m not a movie buff and the movies I enjoy watching (mostly french movies) do not have the soundtrack as their main feature of interest. This being said, I’m planning to get an acoustically transparent screen to hide the LCR.

 

I’m really looking to acoustically “remove” the side walls when I listen to my 2 Ch setup so the soundstage expand in width. Depth is quite nice currently with the speaker about 2 m from the front wall. I’m sitting about 1.5m from the back wall.
 

 

 

 

Go & have a listen to the setup at Rogue and decide from there. At least you’ll have an idea what a balanced cinema room sounds like for music & movies.

 

You have way too much absorption in the wrong places, which might not sound overly damped because you have so much slap echo from the floor/ceiling, but it’s still incorrect. Treat the ceiling, especially behind the seat, replace a lot of the absorption with diffusion & correct your surround speaker heights, but work out what you want from the room first. Lot of money on surround sound, if that’s not what you want… 

7 minutes ago, Wavetrain said:

Go & have a listen to the setup at Rogue and decide from there. At least you’ll have an idea what a balanced cinema room sounds like for music & movies.

 

You have way too much absorption in the wrong places, which might not sound overly damped because you have so much slap echo from the floor/ceiling, but it’s still incorrect. Treat the ceiling, especially behind the seat, replace a lot of the absorption with diffusion & correct your surround speaker heights, but work out what you want from the room first. Lot of money on surround sound, if that’s not what you want… 

Thanks, I’ll definitely will drop by at Rogue. 
 

I’ve only listened to the rooms at HTE that are strictly HT. Their cost no object room with a Trinov processor was pretty impressive. But as you rightly pointed out, I’ve already over invested in the HT. I tought my daughter would live in the room and watch movies but turns out she only goes in the room to play clarinet…

 

 

7 hours ago, Colonel Sanders said:

Thanks, I’ll definitely will drop by at Rogue. 
 

I’ve only listened to the rooms at HTE that are strictly HT. Their cost no object room with a Trinov processor was pretty impressive. But as you rightly pointed out, I’ve already over invested in the HT. I tought my daughter would live in the room and watch movies but turns out she only goes in the room to play clarinet…

 

 

That’s great. You’ll be able to make a direct comparison of the acoustics. You’ll be surprised when you do.

 

I think Rogue requires an appointment, so give Scott a call.

On 05/06/2022 at 7:59 PM, Danny Farrow said:

Up until recently my intention was to take a well informed (GIF - Dennis Foley) approach with lots of Bass trapping and perhaps a modest amount of diffusion on the rear wall. However, after reading an article by Matt’s Odemalm called Forest Acoustics - Diffuser Design I am not so sure. I’d like to learn more about the 3-wing approach,

Ditto looked at the Foley solution and am sure if you go the whole hog it would be a great.

Using a professional at some point probably a good idea. Planning stage is always a start.

Am i saying this out of experience,  no of course not.

i down loaded a free copy of QRdude (local product) and started to work out how to build some QRD's. because i think i can. They need some space and the science is real and needs observing in regards Speaker placement and listening position. Of this i have been warned.  What could go wrong? At some  point will get serious about measurements and of course using a professional, but its a 2 channel listening room for my pleasure. Perfecting that well lets say I am alittle further from retirement

I can afford the space on the front and rear walls but not at first point reflection. The side walls need someting thinner and this is were i started to read about the 3 winged approach. You can buy these direct diffuser.com but no local distributor from what i understand. I was looking at either the flat pack or the acrylic version but havent ordered as yet. There is a write up on these from a user on another forum who has had success at first point reflection and immediately behind listening position. The acrylic on wheels model might provide flexibility in a studio and like the look of their wave form solution for the ceiling.

Sounds like a retirement task and wish you well with it.

On 25/06/2022 at 2:51 PM, Wavetrain said:

I actually would not recommend absorbing the first reflection point in a stereo system.

 

I tend to agree, but the answer depends so much on room size, positioning, and directivity index of the speaker.

 

With th typical problems:

 

Room too small (speakers too close to side wall, etc)

Sitting too far back

Speaker wide coverage angle (DI)

 

 

Then absorbtion in the sides of the room is probably a neceassary evil....

9 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

 

I tend to agree, but the answer depends so much on room size, positioning, and directivity index of the speaker.

 

With th typical problems:

 

Room too small (speakers too close to side wall, etc)

Sitting too far back

Speaker wide coverage angle (DI)

 

 

Then absorbtion in the sides of the room is probably a neceassary evil....

In all instances I’ve tried, diffusion is better than absorption. As you have described, I’d agree - absorption in that case is better than nothing.

 

As I’ve said previously, acoustics always varies based on room size & other variables. It also doesn’t scale - what you have seen others do & work, doesn’t mean it will work in your room.

On 11/07/2022 at 2:09 AM, Colonel Sanders said:

Thanks, this is very interesting!

 

That’s what the back of the room looks like. I’m not really into the HT setup. I don’t think the room is leading itself to host a decent HT setup, especially for the surround speakers (back and rear). But probably more important than this, I’m not a movie buff and the movies I enjoy watching (mostly french movies) do not have the soundtrack as their main feature of interest. This being said, I’m planning to get an acoustically transparent screen to hide the LCR.

 

I’m really looking to acoustically “remove” the side walls when I listen to my 2 Ch setup so the soundstage expand in width. Depth is quite nice currently with the speaker about 2 m from the front wall. I’m sitting about 1.5m from the back wall.
 

 

 

 

What ceiling speakers are those please? 🙂

2 hours ago, Odorb said:

What ceiling speakers are those please? 🙂

 

Procella P5. A bit overkill for my need.

Edited October 26, 20223 yr by Colonel Sanders

On 25/06/2022 at 2:51 PM, Wavetrain said:

I actually would not recommend absorbing the first reflection point in a stereo system.

Keep in mind the room in question here is a home studio, not a stereo listening room.

However, in a stereo listening room the situation is quite different. As you say, with first reflection point absorption there are multiple effects happening at the same time. When I have presented different options for clients, I've found a range of different responses. Some say "wait ... can you do that again, I'm not sure I can tell the difference." There are others who find absorption in first reflection points essential in their system. And others with a clear preference to not absorb the first reflection point at all. Then there are others who have a window and curtain on one side and simply want to bring the image back into the middle. It can also be the case that what people prefer can actually change and evolve over time.

What I think we can agree on is that sticking up absorbers in first reflection points, in a stereo listening room, certainly won't be the best option for everyone.

On 3/11/2022 at 3:38 PM, Red Spade Audio said:

Keep in mind the room in question here is a home studio, not a stereo listening room.

However, in a stereo listening room the situation is quite different. As you say, with first reflection point absorption there are multiple effects happening at the same time. When I have presented different options for clients, I've found a range of different responses. Some say "wait ... can you do that again, I'm not sure I can tell the difference." There are others who find absorption in first reflection points essential in their system. And others with a clear preference to not absorb the first reflection point at all. Then there are others who have a window and curtain on one side and simply want to bring the image back into the middle. It can also be the case that what people prefer can actually change and evolve over time.

What I think we can agree on is that sticking up absorbers in first reflection points, in a stereo listening room, certainly won't be the best option for everyone.

Is it an either or issue? Can we have both- absorption and diffusion product at the reflection point?

7 hours ago, vivianbl said:

Is it an either or issue? Can we have both- absorption and diffusion product at the reflection point?

 

 You can have both types of panels adjacent to each other or you can have panels with both absorption and diffusion combined.

To give advice withouth going to the room or listening to system itself is really a bit out of my reach... 

But I can suggest that you buy few absorbers and difusors that will complement your current room design and start playing around since you are retired it should be workable.

There are quite a few articles thar can help you start. 

Like in everything the beauty is in the eye of the beholder, for our hobby this is very true and important to remember. 

 

 

On 11/07/2022 at 12:09 AM, Colonel Sanders said:

Thanks, this is very interesting!

 

That’s what the back of the room looks like. I’m not really into the HT setup. I don’t think the room is leading itself to host a decent HT setup, especially for the surround speakers (back and rear). But probably more important than this, I’m not a movie buff and the movies I enjoy watching (mostly french movies) do not have the soundtrack as their main feature of interest. This being said, I’m planning to get an acoustically transparent screen to hide the LCR.

 

I’m really looking to acoustically “remove” the side walls when I listen to my 2 Ch setup so the soundstage expand in width. Depth is quite nice currently with the speaker about 2 m from the front wall. I’m sitting about 1.5m from the back wall.
 

 

 

 

Was your room done by HTE? Looks like so.

1 hour ago, TDX said:

Was your room done by HTE? Looks like so.

Yes. They did a very good job to turn an horrible room into a very good one. But I’m curious to see if I can make the side walls disappear a bit more. Probably not due to the less than optimal geometry of the room but one can always hope.

On 3/11/2022 at 2:38 PM, Red Spade Audio said:

Then there are others who have a window and curtain on one side and simply want to bring the image back into the middle

Hi Paul, sorry to dig up an old thread.  How do you suggest fixing the issue above, diffusion in front of the window.  I have a room without first reflection points, large glass window on one side, open wall on the other. I am thinking of installing diffusion panels on office type dividers at the first reflection points, which would help with imaging and also some symmetry.  But I cannot find any information around this