Drizt Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Do you find they don't sound great at lower levels and need to be played loud to be enjoyed or that they sound great all the way up to silly SPL's which make you want to listen louder than normal ? Different room engagement/reverb is definitely something I experience with these types of speakers.I found out that with narrow dispersion the speakers really begs to be played loud. When I play my econowaves at "satisfactionary level" it would almost be VERY loud to other people ie. kids, wife. The non-compression really helps. I found these when listening to the unities too at Roger's. But with the dipoles, it does not need to be played very loud. So how these speakers engage the room perhaps influence the perceived loudness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gainphile Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Perhaps the brain crave for "spaciousness" as Paul mentioned. And spaciousness comes from reflections and reverb. In terms of dispersion, the dipoles are 120deg, Econowaves are 90deg, and the unities are 60deg. And the narrower the dispersion, the less room influence there is. Hence volume needs to be even higher to generate room reflections perhaps ... (?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Spencer Posted September 12, 2011 Author Share Posted September 12, 2011 Drizt, For me it's "because I can!" The sound changes less as they go up. They sound good at higher levels where before things start to strain. The subs might see new boxes sooner than expected. They have a hard task being quite low in efficiency, probably around 85 db each. I think with tapped horns I can get that up to about 95 - 97 with a pair. Add another pair and I just might end up with a 100 db system from 20 Hz on up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Spencer Posted September 12, 2011 Author Share Posted September 12, 2011 Consturction photos: http://redspade-audio.blogspot.com/2011/09/synergy-horn-building-my-prototype_12.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ando Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 Paul, Looks like they are coming along well. Good job. Cheers Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 Looking super cool there Paul ,great work mate :thumb: .So when can you bring them over . CHeers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYCone Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Paul, You may have covered this before, but can you elaborate on the size of the holes and placement width (distance is 1/4 wave)? Also, did you cover the crossover in the blog, I may have missed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Spencer Posted September 14, 2011 Author Share Posted September 14, 2011 Thinking of building it? The holes are 18mm, two for each driver and they are placed 86mm along the axial length, 1/4 wave @ 1k. The crossover I've used so far is LR48 @ just over 1k, the high pass on the CD is slightly different. I think I put the xo to the woofers around 230 Hz. There is a broad notch filter in the lower midrange and shelving for the CD. You wouldn't want to do something like this without being able to measure. If you have an active crossover and a basic measurement rig then this is all pretty easy. The mids drop off at the top end like you wouldn't believe. I will probably sell my prototype after I build another version. Good chance for someone to get a pretty amazing horn cheap. It might be nekkid, or I might get some practise spray painting. Final version is probably going to be glossy metallic red. They could also look good with some nice marine ply, but it's not the look I'll go for. I'm thinking "sports car." I've had a chance to do a bit more listening. What is really starting to stand out is the detail. It isn't the kind of analytical detail you get with some speakers that can be a bit cold, bright or forward. Instead, it's the ability to hear each individual sound and capture low level detail. Little sounds you never heard before start to emerge and I don't think it's me paying extra attention. They are quite revealing but somehow they seem to manage to pull that off without being ruthless. I generally haven't been a big fan of speakers that I feel are very revealing. They tend to expose too much about a lot of recordings. This doesn't seem to be happening here. They are also exhilarating. The ease with which the level just shoots up ... wow! They have made me realise that some music requires a certain dynamic oomph to really express itself and it goes beyond what I've been able to find even with other high sensitivity speakers. The one thing that can take some adjustment is the narrow dispersion. They show that some recordings have a lot of ambience mixed in - those sound fantastic. Other recordings are a bit more dry and actually need some ambience added from your listening room. That is where these can sound like giant headphones. Some people like that, some don't. A little mini monitor illuminates the room with very wide dispersion. These are at the other end, very little room interaction. In a very large bright room that would probably be perfect. The middle ground are waveguide speakers with say 90 degree dispersion. I prefer that so fars, so I think I need to make a 60 x 90 version. The directivity on these is pretty constant. The beauty of that is the sweet spot. I have noticed with horns, those that aren't designed for constant directivity (in other words nearly all of them), move your head just a little and the sound stage shifts. As little as 1cm and things shift. These don't do it. Small head movements do nothing. Move to the next seat and things are the same. The image is much more stable. The price paid for that is that you get a falling response to the top end that you have to EQ up. I use a shelving EQ which reduces everything below about 8k by 10 db. That gets is flat. I'm now listening without the foam and I'm surprised that it's going well. The first listen before I did a proper xo had me reaching for the foam to save the ears from bleeding. Amazing how quickly you can change things! One thing I really need to try is putting them where the bass traps now sit, see if it really works there. What gets tricky now is to figure out how to take it to the next level. I have ideas and things to try. 6 drivers. Different port designs. Different profiles. Different front chamber volumes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYCone Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 I really want a set of Unitys, I'll either build or buy. I'd be happy to make a deal for yours, even before you're done. I'm in New York City, but if shipping is reasonable, I'm game. I have active XOs I built based on Sallen Key layout. Filters are easy for me. Tom Danley claims one needs the TEF software to measure phase as well as the traditional mesurements. I have ARTA (usuing a WM61A mic), but haven't tried it yet. Please be as detailed as you can about your build, if you won't sell me yours, I have no choice but to build... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Spencer Posted September 15, 2011 Author Share Posted September 15, 2011 I'm not done with my prototype just yet and shipping could hurt! Have you seen Roger's Unity in the classifieds? You could go for his which is available now and leave out the woofers to keep shipping down. Mine involves a bit of a wait and I'm thinking of trying a few different things with it first. I also need to build a better version before letting it go. I don't know if you are ready for the wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Spencer Posted September 29, 2011 Author Share Posted September 29, 2011 These received about the best compliment I could imagine. My girlfriend asked me "were you playing guitar in there?" ... "nope, that was a CD!" She was surprised. None of my other speakers have managed to pull that one off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 (edited) These received about the best compliment I could imagine. My girlfriend asked me "were you playing guitar in there?" ... "nope, that was a CD!" She was surprised. None of my other speakers have managed to pull that one off. Sweet . CHeers Edited September 29, 2011 by 56oval Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beau Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 Yea I sweat too when my wife looks at my speakers... So the peaveys are goners Paul, who wouldve thougt the answer was sitting in my garage all that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 Yea I sweat too when my wife looks at my speakers.... Cheers :nana CHeers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Spencer Posted September 29, 2011 Author Share Posted September 29, 2011 it's a good thing they sound good, because in the looks department they don't have a lot going for them right now ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beau Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 I dunno, the plasma/raw mdf/retro carpet/child burner sorta looks cool, like a ratrod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKSOUND_HT Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Wow neat setup mate. Those holes would have been very difficult to drill, some of them are extremely close to the edge. Very fancy work indeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Spencer Posted September 30, 2011 Author Share Posted September 30, 2011 I did them before assembly and most of them go through the edge because they aren't perp to the surface but angled like everything with this horn! Next version I think I will do the holes after assembly which means they will be more difficult to place but hopefully easier to drill. I might even do them with the router and make them slots. Undecided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antripodean Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 I've had a chance to do a bit more listening. What is really starting to stand out is the detail. It isn't the kind of analytical detail you get with some speakers that can be a bit cold, bright or forward. Instead, it's the ability to hear each individual sound and capture low level detail. Little sounds you never heard before start to emerge and I don't think it's me paying extra attention. They are quite revealing but somehow they seem to manage to pull that off without being ruthless. I generally haven't been a big fan of speakers that I feel are very revealing. They tend to expose too much about a lot of recordings. This doesn't seem to be happening here. This is all about accurate reproduction of the original music. That's what the Unity/Synergy Horns do so well. Remove the distortion and allow the true dynamics to be reproduced and you have music It's why I think they are the best speakers arround Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St_Luke Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 it's a good thing they sound good, because in the looks department they don't have a lot going for them right now ... If they end up anything like the TL's Paul they will not only sound amazing but have the looks to match! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Spencer Posted September 30, 2011 Author Share Posted September 30, 2011 Thanks Luke They are very different to the TLs! Every speaker I make has a certain laid back quality, this is no exception. It's a bit harder to achieve with horns though because there is always a price to pay. I wonder what I'd think if I could hear them now side by side. In the past I heard various speakers with compression drivers and initially I was put off. Many of them lacked the top end finesse, or started to sound harsh at levels any floorstander could take with a gutsy amp. No point in having a high SPL speaker if you can't listen to it at high levels. The old Adire HE10 with an Eminence 10" coax was one example. Roger's Unity was the first compression driver speaker that impressed me. It was a lot of work to get the TLs looking good. The curve was a killer. I remember planing back MDF on the sides on one hot 40 degree summer day. 8 hours with the hand plane! Then hours with the belt sander. I'd never do it that way again. The Synergy will be so much easier there. Not much of it will be visible - flush mounted in a big bass trap so only the front visible ... although I gotta admit I love the look of all the drivers mounted to the horn. Very industrial, looks like an acoustic weapon. Final version I'm thinking metallic red. Yes, obsession much in a room that is also red ... but the traps around it will be satin black! (just so I can get away with more red). I'll need to brush up on spray painting. I think I'll practise on my surround prototypes, sell them and do version #2! So my idea is to make my prototypes half decent, not like in the past where they were made with chipboard or furry MDF. That way when I move on to the next build, I can sell em off cheap rather than just throw them away. Coming up ... prototype 2 in MDF ... then final version in marine ply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St_Luke Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 I like the sound of Red on Satin Black Paul they will picture nicely. When you have sound of that calibre and size and shape it would be a shame to try and hide it. The bolder the colour the better i say The TL's are now our pride and joy in the lounge room, we get more listening pleasure than ever now from them They really are classy peices of funiture that sound as good as they look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Spencer Posted October 1, 2011 Author Share Posted October 1, 2011 #2 is well underway with thanks to Antripodean for lending a hand on day one and two, leading to this: I have about another full day to get it up and running. There is also a mounting plate half done (not shown). More pics of the build: http://redspade-audio.blogspot.com/2011/10/synergy-prototype-2-construction.html The second flare angle does make things a bit more challenging, but after the first build, this has actually been a lot quicker. I've also been quite a bit less meticulous than in the first, but managed to still get things to fit together nicely. There is a big time and effort difference between something very accurately fitted, and something "close enough." The risk is in fudging it too much and having to throw away a day's work. Mid driver mounting still needs to be figured out, will probably work it out on the fly. Like #1 which already has a buyer lined up, this one will find a new home when I'm finished with it. #3 will probably be the one I keep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DQ828 Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 Looking good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Spencer Posted October 2, 2011 Author Share Posted October 2, 2011 Now it's getting big! More pics ... http://redspade-audio.blogspot.com/2011/10/synergy-prototype-2-construction-2.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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