Vinyl Cleaning Machines

[Drizt]

Take a valium dlenaid. You are quite the character. [/b]

Agreed.

dlenaid has been suspended for 14 days due to his behaviour.

Sorry to everyone else who has been subjected to his behaviour.

Regards

Moderator team.

[ophool]

I too own a Rega, though not as exalted as a P9, I too have read their recommendations.

I have however taken them in the context in which they were written (I believe) when the Rega range of turntables were introduced.

At that time, things such as the "dust bug" and the "preener" were in common use.

The "preener" was a cylindrical velvet pile brush with a dampened sponge core, anti static sprays and wipes were also common. Many of these "vinyl care" products may well have contributed to increased contamination and been better avoided.

Wet play has also been attempted, (and I believe is still a "last resort" when attempting restoration re-recording).

These, I believe, are primarily the sorts of things about which the Rega recommendations were written.

Which is not to discount them, merely to attempt to understand them by placing within a context.

I do not believe that it was their intention to discount the benefit (nearly 30 years later) of proper washing using appropriate equipment (the original intent of this thread) to restore to somewhere near new condition, aged, soiled and abused records.

The individual ownership of such equipment would have been most unlikely and organisations with curatorial responsibilities for large collections would have taken their own advice as to the advisability of using such equipment.

For myself, whilst recognising that there others who do not agree, I will continue to clean my new acquisitions with the washing regime I presently use, having demonstrated to my own satisfaction the improvement in both sound quality and reduction of surface noise to be had on my relatively modest playback system.

Could I afford a cleaning machine, I would have one without hesitation, probably a Loricraft or at least a Moth.

At the end of the day, regardless of what anyone else thinks, they are my records and I listen to them, and I think washing them makes them sound better.

I would not expend the amount of time and effort on it were it not so.

Anyone else is quite free to do as they see fit.

[Young Skywalker]

Dlenaid,

I believe Rega before your word anyday.[/b]

You have been warned to change the tone of your posts by one of the forum moderators.

Your recent posts in this thread are becoming too personal and I find it highly antagonostic. I hope you realise that I am exercising the greatest restraint here by not publicly ripping you to pieces. Perhaps we should take this matter to PM or better yet we can discuss this over the phone or in person. If you have a problem with me personally then let's resolve it.

I can clearly not win with you. You challenged me to prove my credibility and I did so by citing the products with which I have direct experience. I also stated that I most certainly did not do this as part of a brag list or too satisfy my ego. Nothing could be further from the truth as far as my approach to hi-fi is concerned. I worked hard for my current system and feel that it represents phenomenal value for money which is why I am so passionate about sharing my views and experiences with others that are just starting out.

The source of the before and after photos is.... SH Forum

I aimed to illustrate my point with these images not to disprove yours. I think I have succeeded in that regard. The original forum poster is not a manufacturer of record cleaning machines or fluids. In fact he used ordinary household detergent as I clearly stated in my post. You do read what is written before making comments don't you?

I say again do not contaminate Record groove and Needle with Cleaning chemical.[/b]

Did the "after" images that I posted look contaminated relative to the "before" images?

I will guaranteed you spend moneys of Record cleaner on Record Player and get bigger improve.[/b]

I disagree. You can take two respectable analog setups that differ in retail price by $1000, which is what I paid for my full VPI 16.5 record cleaning machine and associate cleaning fluids, and I believe that you would consistently achieve quieter LP playback and hence uncover more low level information by spending the balance on good record care. As a side benefit your records and stylus will last a lot longer.

What is not show is microscope before and after needle. That is real proof.[/b]

Proof of WHAT? Proof that playing a record that is never wet/vac cleaned will grind all manner of particulate matter into the vinyl such that it manifests itself on every play? If I can find any before and after photos of a virgin, unplayed record compared to a record that has been played dozens of times and handles with care then I will post it. Better yet, why don't you post some evidence of this? Oh, that's right..... it must be an ego thing.

Your opinion matters little to me and the sharp tone of your posts, in general, suggests that you are bitter about something related to audio. Did I do wrong by you at any stage? Would you be as rude to me in a face to face situation as you are here on this forum? It is easy to be rude and condencending from behind the computer screen.

Aaron

[davidsss]

Hey I put together a cleaning rig for hardly any money and it does a pretty good job as a few people saw last weekend. Is it as good as a dedicated record cleaning machine? Probably not, but it has certainly got rid of a lot of crackles and pops on my records.

For the record my cleaning consists of a cheapo record player with tonearm removed to act as a platform for the cleaning. I put cleaning fluid on the record with a disc doctor brush. I vac it off using the little brushes you use to clean your PC keyboard, attached to my home vacuum cleaner which is 1800 watts. I use one of those cylindrical velvet brushes to make sure I get all the fluid off and if there is still some fluid I'll also wipe with an anti static cloth. It does a very good job and cost me about $50 including the isopropyl alcohol, turntable and little brush set for the vacuum cleaner. To clean my stylus I use a stylus brush which came with fluid, the fluid ran out and I just use distilled water to clean it (don't use isopropyl on the stylus).

Records do need cleaning despite the comments above. They get dirty after a while and a good vacuum clean is very effective.

DS

[Guest pepe]

My first post on this forum. I too have a Rega. And their instructions are not from 30 years ago. It is infact very current and quite specific in regards all cleaning including cleaning machines.

If you treat your vinyl as it should, take it out of its sleeve, play it and put it back as per Rega there is no need for all this cleaning.

And Skywalker your comments in regards Rega and your elitism is a disgrace.

You very obviously have very little experience in regards Rega's.

[Young Skywalker]

I agree David. We had a good chat about record cleaning at the Melody GTG as I recall.

I would be a little worried that the isopropanol may weaken the bonding of stylus to cantilever over time. I am probably just being paranoid here but better safe than sorry.

If you want to test my cred then pick up one of the Chux Magic Eraser pads when you next visit the supermarket and follow my guidelines.

I have a little sample pack here that I can send off to the first person to express an interest in this stylus cleaning tip. All I ask is that you report back to the forum with your experiences, be they good, bad or indifferent.

Best,

Aaron

[Young Skywalker]

And Skywalker your comments in regards Rega and your elitism is a disgrace.

You very obviously have very little experience in regards Rega's.[/b]

Hello pepe,

You aren't a friend of dlenaid's by any chance?

I most certainly am not elitist and I regret that you have drawn that conclusion. I strongly believe that high price does not always equal high performance and since you don't know me from a bar of soap your assertion based on one post, taken out of context I might add, is unjustified.

I NEVER said anything disparaging towards Rega or its products. Rega is not an assault on the state of the art in vinyl playback but it does represent excellent value for money. In fact, I owned a Technics SL-1200 DJ turntable for 8 years before I purchased my Basis rig so I have sampled both ends of the spectrum if you like. It was in fact dlenaid who cited Rega as an example as the be-all and end-all of vinyl knowledge in support of his record cleaning philosophy and, in rebuttal, I simply cited a few sources whom I consider to be even more credible within the turntable community.

If you treat your vinyl as it should, take it out of its sleeve, play it and put it back as per Rega there is no need for all this cleaning.[/b]

Sorry if you don't agree with me on this particular topic. Frankly I don't have the energy or patience to revisit the dlenaid experience. They are your records so do with them as you please.

Aaron

[Guest pepe]

Hello pepe,

You aren't a friend of dlenaid's by any chance?

I most certainly am not elitist and I regret that you have drawn that conclusion. I strongly believe that high price does not always equal high performance and since you don't know me from a bar of soap your assertion based on one post, taken out of context I might add, is unjustified.

I NEVER said anything disparaging towards Rega or its products. Rega is not an assault on the state of the art in vinyl playback but it does represent excellent value for money. In fact, I owned a Technics SL-1200 DJ turntable for 8 years before I purchased my Basis rig so I have sampled both ends of the spectrum if you like. It was in fact dlenaid who cited Rega as an example as the be-all and end-all of vinyl knowledge in support of his record cleaning philosophy and, in rebuttal, I simply cited a few sources whom I consider to be even more credible within the turntable community.

Sorry if you don't agree with me on this particular topic. Frankly I don't have the energy or patience to revisit the dlenaid experience. They are your records so do with them as you please.

Aaron[/b]

Skywalker, I dont know dlenaid from a 'bar of soap'. But do own a Rega and have heard some pretty awesome vinyl on Rega's. As have on other sensational decks from other makers and other systems.

How can you possibly say "Rega is not an assault on the state of the art in vinyl playback" when you yourself said in an earlier post that you had no experience of their flagship p9.

Regas's philosophy is the very opposite to many other makers, in that they go for the ultra light and extremely stiff and rigid designs like in formula one cars as opposed to other makers who go for the large mass and suspended isolated designs. They also have no bullshit designs without all the chrome and perpex and what not jewelry other makers addorn on their designs. Rega's design philosophys might not agree with what you look in a turntable but that does mean they are not state of the art.

[Tony C]

Sometimes I think it better we agree to disagree. Those people cautious about putting cleaning solutions on the hard to replace vinyl should be respected for holding that view.

Those people including myself that would never play a record without first cleaning the stylus and record, we should respect that too.

Its the middle ground that worries me, where people who are applying cleaning solutions with isoproply alcohol based formula that have not got the gear to remove the solution from the vinyl once its applied.

Lets al agree to disagree on this one as we are all concerned about the longevity of our vinyl but fear of it spoilage we choose different paths.

BTW I'm always scared to buy second and LP's because in my experience poor antiskating practices and chea and nasty stylus's ruin the LP's from the previous owner. It is always god to know the LP's source and from what type of owner. Tony C

[Young Skywalker]

How can you possibly say "Rega is not an assault on the state of the art in vinyl playback" when you yourself said in an earlier post that you had no experience of their flagship p9.[/b]

You are right pepe. But if a Rega P9 is better than a Continuum Audio Labs Criterion/Copperhead or Caliburn/Cobra then I will publicly mount a campaign in favour of the Rega, sell my entire system and donate the proceeds to charity.

Did Rega use finite element analysis to design their turntable chassis and platter? Did they use other forms of shape optimisation software? Does the platter feature vacuum hold down to tame the resonant signature of vinyl? Does the Rega P9 feature a fully decoupled armboard?

I know that these products are chalk and cheese from a financial perspective but we are talking about what is or is not an assault on the state-of-the-art in vinyl playback.

Aaron

[Guest pepe]

You are right pepe. But if a Rega P9 is better than a Continuum Audio Labs Criterion/Copperhead or Caliburn/Cobra then I will publicly mount a campaign in favour of the Rega, sell my entire system and donate the proceeds to charity.

Did Rega use finite element analysis to design their turntable chassis and platter? Did they use other forms of shape optimisation software? Does the platter feature vacuum hold down to tame the resonant signature of vinyl? Does the Rega P9 feature a fully decoupled armboard?

I know that these products are chalk and cheese from a financial perspective but we are talking about what is or is not an assault on the state-of-the-art in vinyl playback.

Aaron[/b]

State of the art for vinyl ?, you ever seen the ceramic platter of even a P7 ? how many turntable manufactuers have designs like that for a platter ? have you any idea of he plinth of the P7 or P9, do you know whats involved in the design and making of the tone arms and mechanisms used in these Rega's.

That you disparagingly comment on equipment you clearly have admitted to never any experience with is a disgrace.

Even more a disgrace that the company you work for I see from their website sell Continium not Rega, not suprised by your comment in that case all along.

How a board such as this can allow sellers of equipment to disparagingly comment on equipment they do not sell or have no experience with in favour of their own sold equipment is beyond me.

It is very dissapointing to see from a retailer, I would never buy anything from you.

[Guest pepe]

Sometimes I think it better we agree to disagree. Those people cautious about putting cleaning solutions on the hard to replace vinyl should be respected for holding that view.

Those people including myself that would never play a record without first cleaning the stylus and record, we should respect that too.

Its the middle ground that worries me, where people who are applying cleaning solutions with isoproply alcohol based formula that have not got the gear to remove the solution from the vinyl once its applied.

Lets al agree to disagree on this one as we are all concerned about the longevity of our vinyl but fear of it spoilage we choose different paths.

BTW I'm always scared to buy second and LP's because in my experience poor antiskating practices and chea and nasty stylus's ruin the LP's from the previous owner. It is always god to know the LP's source and from what type of owner. Tony C[/b]

It is quite true Tony there are always 2 sides of the coin. To not acknowledge the other side is burying ones head in the sand.

I believe following Rega's clear instructions can work for vinyl bought new and well cared for and have been using vinyl for many years. I too would be very scared buy second hand LP's for the very reasons you list.

[terry j]

well FINALLY, a thread/discussion where I can be the one getting the popcorn!!!ha ha ha (lately those threads seem to have involved me).

And I missed it, the one day when I can get to sleep early..grumble grumble grumble.

Can I put my two cents in? None of this would have happened if you'd all just stick to cd's.

Seriously though, I think Dnelaids biggest problem was his 'poor english', at times it led to turns of speech which tended to appear more personal than I feel it was, and to be frank to have hime suspended I feel was way over the top. I will admit though that I probably would have taken them quite a bit more personally if my name had been involved, but as a popcorn eating beer swilling outsider I really do feel his comments had 'more personal attack' put into them than was warranted.

Let's be honest Aaron, after you (understandably perhaps) took offence at his tone, is it not true that YOU took after him like a dog after a rabbit and chased him through various threads and had a go at him elsewhere?? Sure, when you did say things it was 'all so very polite' which in it's own cynical and condescending way can be every bit as insulting as the direct approach (forced on Dnelaid by his 'english as a second language' I suspect).

My upset??? Young Skywalker is MY jousting partner, how dare anyone else poach on my territory ha ha ha.

No, think we all need to take a chill-pill,.... and let the games begin again.

Besides ALL that, finally here we had someone saying something good about the deqx and it got lost in all the noise!! bloody typical.

We'll have to do that experiment we spoke of on a vinyl rig one day Aaron.

[unclemack]

I love it! First dnelaids thrust, Skywalkers parry and pepe's "come to the rescue" counter thrust...

This along with Keith Vs JA and Keith Vs Norpus makes this THE most entertaining forum on the web. I laugh a lot at this stuff.

Let's not let this place degenerate into an Australian HiFi forum *****-fest though. Let's remember why we're here.

Skywalker you rubbish!

Ha ha ha

:biggrin:

M

[Mr_Gimlet]

This along with Keith Vs JA and Keith Vs Norpus makes this THE most entertaining forum on the web. I laugh a lot at this stuff.[/b]

Keith vs everybody :-)

[Moondog]

lets have a popcorn award , all threads with popcorn award , could have a popcorn symbol beside it.

And maybe a Kindergarden forum . Where posters can have a dedicated forum to play on . Till they lighten up

I know I know , Im going back to play with the music machine

Moondog

[davidsss]

Well back to the debate.

I agree that you need to make sure you can get the Isopropyl off the record after cleaning. You don't want to leave it there for long or it may (depending on opinion) damage the record. As far as I know it shouldn't harm the vinyl if you don't leave it on for long.

I don't clean my stylus every play only when I see dirt on it, I have very good eyesight and I can tell when the diamond looks a little large and then its time to clean.

However, grinding the dirt into your vinyl with a needle? That is sheer madness. You would be better off with a Watts dust bug than doing that. Needles are made for extracting music, not for cleaning records.

DS

[Young Skywalker]

That you disparagingly comment on equipment you clearly have admitted to never any experience with is a disgrace.[/b]

I am sorry pepe but can you please highlight my disparaging remarks regarding anything made by Rega? I simply pointed out the features of the Continuum product which contribute to its revolutionary sound quality. It just so happens that the Rega lacks these same features, thereby disqualifying it as an all out assault on the start-of-the-art in vinyl playback in my opinion. If you misinterpreted my remarks as disparaging then I sincerely apologise.

you ever seen the ceramic platter of even a P7 ? how many turntable manufactuers have designs like that for a platter ? have you any idea of he plinth of the P7 or P9, do you know whats involved in the design and making of the tone arms and mechanisms used in these Rega's.[/b]

While I was vising the Continuum factory in Melbourne, the chief designer/engineer took a sizeable chunk of aluminium and dropped it from about 2 meters onto the concrete floor, it rang out in the most horrible way. When he repeated the exercise with their proprietry magnesium alloy, developed in conjunction with a CSIRO materials scientist, it landed with a dull thud and absolutely no ringing. They use this material for the turntable chassis and platter, both of which are shape optimised to move vibrations away from the platter surface. Your Rega ceramic platter may be equally as effective in this regard, I shall investigate if this material was tested by Continuum during their cost-no-object development.

I am not disputing that Rega may have spent a good deal of time (and money) during the development of their platter, plinth (chassis) and tonearm. My point is simply that Continuum has considerably "pushed the envelope" in terms of what is important in vinyl playback. Namely, lowering any resonant frequencies such that they fall outside the audible range, channelling these resonant frequencies away from the platter surface so that they do not colour the small electrical signal generated by the cartridge, minimising tonearm resonance through shape optimisation and materials science, introducing a non-pulsing vacuum platter, development of the only true zero cogging motor in the audio world with unprecedented pitch accuracy via complex speed algorithms. These things are all measurable and audible and in my opinion constitute an all out assault on the start-of-the-art as far as vinyl playback is concerned.

You missed a HUGE thread a while back where we discussed the fact that it is impossible to hear every piece of gear on the market and sometimes you have to base your opinions/decisions on the basis of scientific rationale and/or personal bias. My research leads me to believe that a Rega, as good as it may sound to you, cannot compete with something as ambitious as a Continuum product. A Volkswagen Golf R32 is an amazing car but it is not a Bugatti Veyron, to use a car analogy.

You single out my reference to Continuum Audio Labs because Pure Music Group "sells" it. Continuum products sell themselves to a very special type of buyer, namely one that has a lot of discretionary income and a very significant collection of vinyl records. I could talk about Continuum everyday on this forum and it will never directly result in sales just to put your mind at rest.

If you feel more comfortable I will also go on record (pun intended) as saying that compared to a Rega 9, my Basis 2800 represents a more serious attempt to deal with the problems inherent in vinyl playback with its mass loaded vacuum platter, extremely close tolerance machining of the bearing and platter, its damped suspension and extremely flat belt drive. Bring your Rega 9 around any time and we can do some listening tests. If I think that the Rega 9 is better than the Basis 2800 in my system then I will sell the latter, buy a Rega 9 and donate the balance to charity.

Again, I am sure that the Rega is a fine product at its asking price and if you and the thousands of other proud owner's are perfectly content with its performance then that is all that matters. If it makes you happy to believe that your Rega represents the same investment of R&D as a Continuum Caliburn then so be it.

This thread was about record cleaning machines and I really do hate being drawn into some petty side debate by people who clearly have an axe to grind. However, I most certainly will not be told that my opinion counts for nothing by anyone on this forum, regardless of who they are or what they think they know.

Just for the record I am not elitist with regards to anything, especially hi-fi. Being discerning, extremely critical and argumentative I freely admit to. Do I get angry when someone attacks me personally simply because I passionately articulated an opposing view? You betcha. Do I employ a vicious undertone in my defense as a result? Probably, but only when it is warranted. Anyone who looks through the vast majority of my posts will find that I go out of my way to be helpful, friendly and polite.

Aaron

[Guest pepe]

I am sorry pepe but can you please highlight my disparaging remarks regarding anything made by Rega? I simply pointed out the features of the Continuum product which contribute to its revolutionary sound quality. It just so happens that the Rega lacks these same features, thereby disqualifying it as an all out assault on the start-of-the-art in vinyl playback in my opinion. If you misinterpreted my remarks as disparaging then I sincerely apologise.

While I was vising the Continuum factory in Melbourne, the chief designer/engineer took a sizeable chunk of aluminium and dropped it from about 2 meters onto the concrete floor, it rang out in the most horrible way. When he repeated the exercise with their proprietry magnesium alloy, developed in conjunction with a CSIRO materials scientist, it landed with a dull thud and absolutely no ringing. They use this material for the turntable chassis and platter, both of which are shape optimised to move vibrations away from the platter surface. Your Rega ceramic platter may be equally as effective in this regard, I shall investigate if this material was tested by Continuum during their cost-no-object development.

I am not disputing that Rega may have spent a good deal of time (and money) during the development of their platter, plinth (chassis) and tonearm. My point is simply that Continuum has considerably "pushed the envelope" in terms of what is important in vinyl playback. Namely, lowering any resonant frequencies such that they fall outside the audible range, channelling these resonant frequencies away from the platter surface so that they do not colour the small electrical signal generated by the cartridge, minimising tonearm resonance through shape optimisation and materials science, introducing a non-pulsing vacuum platter, development of the only true zero cogging motor in the audio world with unprecedented pitch accuracy via complex speed algorithms. These things are all measurable and audible and in my opinion constitute an all out assault on the start-of-the-art as far as vinyl playback is concerned.

You missed a HUGE thread a while back where we discussed the fact that it is impossible to hear every piece of gear on the market and sometimes you have to base your opinions/decisions on the basis of scientific rationale and/or personal bias. My research leads me to believe that a Rega, as good as it may sound to you, cannot compete with something as ambitious as a Continuum product. A Volkswagen Golf R32 is an amazing car but it is not a Bugatti Veyron, to use a car analogy.

You single out my reference to Continuum Audio Labs because Pure Music Group "sells" it. Continuum products sell themselves to a very special type of buyer, namely one that has a lot of discretionary income and a very significant collection of vinyl records. I could talk about Continuum everyday on this forum and it will never directly result in sales just to put your mind at rest.

If you feel more comfortable I will also go on record (pun intended) as saying that compared to a Rega 9, my Basis 2800 represents a more serious attempt to deal with the problems inherent in vinyl playback with its mass loaded vacuum platter, extremely close tolerance machining of the bearing and platter, its damped suspension and extremely flat belt drive. Bring your Rega 9 around any time and we can do some listening tests. If I think that the Rega 9 is better than the Basis 2800 in my system then I will sell the latter, buy a Rega 9 and donate the balance to charity.

Again, I am sure that the Rega is a fine product at its asking price and if you and the thousands of other proud owner's are perfectly content with its performance then that is all that matters. If it makes you happy to believe that your Rega represents the same investment of R&D as a Continuum Caliburn then so be it.

This thread was about record cleaning machines and I really do hate being drawn into some petty side debate by people who clearly have an axe to grind. However, I most certainly will not be told that my opinion counts for nothing by anyone on this forum, regardless of who they are or what they think they know.

Just for the record I am not elitist with regards to anything, especially hi-fi. Being discerning, extremely critical and argumentative I freely admit to. Do I get angry when someone attacks me personally simply because I passionately articulated an opposing view? You betcha. Do I employ a vicious undertone in my defense as a result? Probably, but only when it is warranted. Anyone who looks through the vast majority of my posts will find that I go out of my way to be helpful, friendly and polite.

Aaron[/b]

My goodness just listen to your self ! I'll be damned if have ever come across such elitism and condescending snobbery in the same post on any forum.

Do you normally speak to your customers as well in this manner. What a disgrace !

You keep putting down the Rega, and yet know nothing of it. Absolutely nothing ! which you have clearly admitted to and continue to post about.

And wow what a great advertisment for continium. As sales consultant for the Pure music group, do they pay you commision by the word or is it by the post.

In regards Rega, maybe go elighten yourself oneday so you know what your talking about. Or maybe at the very least go of read of there reviews or something. This one from Stereophile is just for their humble p5 and p7 turntables

http://www.stereophile.com/turntables/1204rega/

[Guest pepe]

Well back to the debate.

I agree that you need to make sure you can get the Isopropyl off the record after cleaning. You don't want to leave it there for long or it may (depending on opinion) damage the record. As far as I know it shouldn't harm the vinyl if you don't leave it on for long.

I don't clean my stylus every play only when I see dirt on it, I have very good eyesight and I can tell when the diamond looks a little large and then its time to clean.

However, grinding the dirt into your vinyl with a needle? That is sheer madness. You would be better off with a Watts dust bug than doing that. Needles are made for extracting music, not for cleaning records.

DS[/b]

Yes the flip side of the coin that those passionate about Record Cleaning fail to mention. The Iso Propyl Alcohol cleaners that leach out from the Vinyl the oils and plasticisers. And cause the Vinyl to dry out and crumble literally degrading your record every time you clean it with the stuff. Then theres the 'detergents', I noticed Skywalker mention the use of in one of his posts, which leave behind residues on the groove surface.

[Young Skywalker]

Based on you joining this forum and throwing your weight around from the word go I could tell you what I think of you pepe but it would be very out of character for me to be so mean spirited. Moreover, I would swiftly be banned from this forum. Perhaps we should meet face to face to exchange ideas on this topic. Maybe then you would be in a position to pass judgement on me rather than relying on what appears to be a serious lack of comprehension on your part and an apparent vendetta against anyone with an industry affiliation who dares to express an opinion on a public forum.

And wow what a great advertisment for continium. As sales consultant for the Pure music group, do they pay you commision by the word or is it by the post.[/b]

No more than what Rega or dlenaid pays you for your comments I can assure you.

You know nothing about me so please keep your misguided assertions, accusations and personal opinions to yourself!

My goodness just listen to your self ! I'll be damned if have ever come across such elitism and condescending snobbery in the same post on any forum.

Do you normally speak to all your customers as well in this manner. What a disgrace ![/b]

You were addressed in a manner which was highly appropriate to the respect you accorded me in your first post.

I am not elitist but you are clearly too narrow minded to listen to reason. I can assure you that I have walked into my fair share of high end audio stores in the past and not been given the time of day. I have absolutely no interest in seeing this attitude prevail in the hi-fi industry.

A potential customer would treat me as they would like to be treated in return. You have clearly singled me out for your royal treatment because I declare that I do some part-time sales consulting for an Australian importer of hi-fi gear. When I post on this forum I am not wearing my sales hat unless someone asks a question where I can be of direct assistance. The remainder of the time I am speaking purely as an individual so please refrain from joining the dots to leverage your arguments. If I have a commercial interest in an opinion then I declare that and I have received nothing but positive feedback in that regard from non-commercial StereoNet members.

Let me give you some background on the level of customer service that I consistently strive for. How many audio consultants would drive from one side of Sydney to the other, setup a turntable, cartridge and phono stage in a customer's home, sit with them for several hours while they play record after record, then pack the whole shebang back up, and then drive back across Sydney? Maybe I would give up my free time of an evening or weekend by inviting a total stranger into my own home to listen to music. There are a lot of time wasters out there but we always manage to have fun. This rarely results in sales and this is not my source of income. I do it because I like meeting people with similar interests and sharing my passion for music. So who are you to question my customer service.

If you don't like me or what I have to write then your are free to ignore it.

I hope that you have a great weekend and always remember to enjoy the music.

Aaron

[mrporcelain]

This is a bit personal don't you think dlenaid?

I have not stooped that low.[/b]

Haha harden up.

[Young Skywalker]

es the flip side of the coin that those passionate about Record Cleaning fail to mention. The Iso Propyl Alcohol cleaners that leach out from the Vinyl the oils and plasticisers. And cause the Vinyl to dry out and crumble literally degrading your record every time you clean it with the stuff. Then theres the 'detergents', I noticed Skywalker mention the use of in one of his posts, which leave behind residues on the groove surface.[/b]

So you know for a fact that detergent based record cleaning fluids leave a residue pepe? Did you see any residue in the electron micrographs that I posted previously? Please realise that most if not all commercial record cleaning fluids that use a surfactant should be followed up by a rinse cycle using pure distilled water. If the cleaning fluid is leaving a residue then I cannot hear it and I certainly cannot see it at the molecular level.

If your experience is different then that is fine.

Aaron

[Young Skywalker]

Haha harden up.[/b]

Thanks for the tip Apokalypse. I am hard enough thanks and only attempted to put a lid on dlenaid's personal reference for fear that I would give as good as I get, not something I want to be drawn into and certainly not in the spirit of StereoNet.

There is an old saying... never argue with a fool because the fool will always win. There might be some truth in that.

Aaron

[Tony C]

Can I suggest the record cleaning guys go back to their corner, and those who prefer not to use cleaners back to their corner too. Put gloves down for a minute, and wait on the referee. Tony C