Importance of different tubes in tube amp.

[Blade74]

I’m currently buying a Cayin CS100A integrated tube amp.
Just wondering the importance of each tube that it uses as I’m thinking of tube rolling not too long after.
 
This is the list of tubes.
 
1 x 6SN7, 2 x 12BH7EH, 2 x 12AU7EH, 8 x KT88/EL34
 
Thanks for any advice.

[davewantsmoore]

4 minutes ago, Blade74 said:

 

I’m currently buying a Cayon CS100A integrated tube amp.

Just wondering the importance of each tube that it uses as I’m thinking of tube rolling not too long after.

 

This is the list of tubes.

 

1 x 6SN7, 2 x 12BH7EH, 2 x 12AU7EH, 8 x KT88/EL34

 

Thanks for any advice.

 

Due to the potential large variances between different tubes (even ones which "are the same" model/type/brand, etc.) it's quite possible that changing tubes could change the sound quite a bit.

 

Whether it is "better" or not, depends a lot on the circuit.

[Blade74]

From what I’ve read so far the 12au7 tubes will make the biggest difference to sound.
Not sure if this is correct or not?

[Mendes]

26 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

Whether it is "better" or not, depends a lot on the circuit.

What he said + 1.............. welcome to the rabbit hole

[TerryO]

Knowing what I know now from owning several tube amps I would personally look at a amp that can take a larger range of power tubes, while el34 and some kt88's can sound excellent having a amp that is capable of swapping between el34's right up the ladder to KT150's gives you maximum flexibility with your amp to fit in with other potential upgrades and or more importantly changing tastes.

 

There are plenty of very nice NOS 12au7's around that will fine tune your amp but it's the power tubes that give you the basis of what the amp delivers. I hope that makes sense.

 

cheers Terry

Edited December 13, 2018 by TerryO

[Blade74]

Knowing what I know now from owning several tube amps I would personally look at a amp that can take a larger range of power tubes, while el34 and some kt88's can sound excellent having a amp that is capable of swapping between el34's right up the ladder to KT150's gives you maximum flexibility with your amp to fit in with other potential upgrades and or more importantly changing tastes.
 
There are plenty of very nice NOS 12au7's around that will fine tune your amp but it's the power tubes that give you the basis of what the amp delivers. I hope that makes sense.
 
cheers Terry

Thanks Terry,

This unit can take up to KT150’s.

So I think it will give a great selection.

[Guest deanB]

Spend a bit of time with the Cayin in stock form before embarking on the rolling road. Try it out in ultralinear and triode with different styles of music.

The Cayin can be used with a preamplifier so if possible, try that. Solid state or valve or even passive. It all adds to a deeper understanding of what's possible.

Once you've worked out if the amp has a dark or neutral or slightly forward nature as it interfaces with your speakers, you can start looking into the valves that can enhance or mitigate the overall presentation. There's plenty of members with a good understanding of what to recommend to someone trying to valve roll their way to a  balanced presentation. But you must get to know your system first so you can explain your needs. Otherwise, it indeed becomes a crap shoot in the rabbit warren.

 

[andrewinbriz]

what deanB said.

Be familiar with the stock sound before switching out tubes.

In my personal experience

'tube rolling' can rapidly become OCD!

(precious, precious!)

[Blade74]

Thank you for the advice.

Yes I will spend some time with it and the original tubes first. I will burn them in and determine the sound signature with my speakers then ascertain if I want to alter that sound and in which ways.

Was mainly wanting to understand which of the tubes in the chain play what kinda role in changing the sound.

Are they all directly in the audio chain and all directly change the sound and to what degree.

 

[Guest deanB]

I'd start with the 12au7 and 12bh7 and you want matched pairs of NOS (New Old Stock). This denotes valves that were made pre 70's, with environmentally unfriendly methods and materials (although that wasn't really an issue back then) and secret recipes created by now extinct wizards.

 

 

[Blade74]

The 12au7 and 12bu7 tubes that come in it are electroharmonix. Not sure what the KT88 tubes are but assuming the same.
Been running it tonight and so far sounds amazing.
Will keep running it and familiarising myself with it.

[Guest deanB]

Chances are the KT-88 are Shuguang. Do they have the  Cayin logo printed on them? 

Maybe post a few pics of the amp, we love pics on Sna. 

 

[eman]

I'm running Shuguang 50yr Treasure KT 88.    They are superb.  Easily identified by the main 'body' of the tube being black.  EH i think will be normal clear glass.

 

These Shuguang are a level above the EH and Golden Lion in my amp.

[Blade74]

I’ll get a better photo but this was last night in the dark. So not very sharp.

 

 

So far it’s sounding as though instruments and voices are more natural and realistic.

It sounds great at low volume levels and higher levels.

Sounds just float in space well and is very airy.

Very very happy so far.

Something very organic and special about it.

 

It definitely puts out a fair bit of heat.

It easily puts out enough power and I haven’t heard it struggle so far.

 

I have it currently running with stock tubes and the following equipment:

- Kef R7 speakers

- Bluesound Node just streaming 320kb Spotify

- Kimber 4TC speaker cable. The older blue and black cable.

- Canare GS6 RCA cables.

 

I’ll try some higher quality streaming later.

And also try out my turntable later.

 

 

[Blade74]

Chances are the KT-88 are Shuguang. Do they have the  Cayin logo printed on them? 
Maybe post a few pics of the amp, we love pics on Sna. [emoji39]
 

Yes the KT88 Tubes have Cayin printed on them.
The single 6NS7 tube is a Tung Sol.

[Blade74]

Ok so this is what each tube is for:
6SN7 voltage amplification stage, 12AU7EH phase invertor and voltage amplification, 12BH7EH voltage amplification and driver stage, KT88 or EL34 output tubes.

[aussievintage]

On 13/12/2018 at 1:06 PM, Blade74 said:

From what I’ve read so far the 12au7 tubes will make the biggest difference to sound.
Not sure if this is correct or not?

I wouldn't have expected that.  I think higher gain tubes nearest the input make the biggest difference to sound usually. 

[djb]

A diametrically opposite view to the high rollers posting above

 

Tube rolling is a waste of money.

 

 Now I've got your attention all tubes of a type/number have that # because they meet the same specifications.

They should sound the same.

OK some sound better than others and that's where the price differences sometimes offer better SQ.

BUT. The SQ differences are relatively small they must be because they have the same specs.

 

A waste of money !?

For almost all of us our hifi addiction budget is limited if your budget is infinite then my claim above is false for you.

Some component in our systems is almost always less perfect than the others spare funds should go to that infinitely repetitive upgrade cycle not to tube rolling.

An example: your need would be 300b valves they vary in price from Shuguan at $100 ish a pair to military issue NOS at 750++

I have had both in my systems. Yes I can clearly hear the difference a $750 pair made to SQ.

Having heard them in my amps I gave them back and bought some at a price I could afford at quarter the price. I used the compromise $ to upgrade my weakest component. 

The choice is each of ours to make depends on how cashed up you are. 

Currently I run a Cpair it Cary audio mono blocks with 4 x 300b per side. So 8 300b at $400 U.S. = $3200= $4000 + Oz < did thes figures quite a while back

I could buy a hi end component  with the change and lowered the noise floor of my system.

Each to our own hifi obsession.

 

 

 

[caddisgeek]

32 minutes ago, djb said:

A diametrically opposite view to the high rollers posting above

 

Tube rolling is a waste of money.

 

 Now I've got your attention all tubes of a type/number have that # because they meet the same specifications.

They should sound the same.

OK some sound better than others and that's where the price differences sometimes offer better SQ.

BUT. The SQ differences are relatively small they must be because they have the same specs.

 

A waste of money !?

For almost all of us our hifi addiction budget is limited if your budget is infinite then my claim above is false for you.

Some component in our systems is almost always less perfect than the others spare funds should go to that infinitely repetitive upgrade cycle not to tube rolling.

An example: your need would be 300b valves they vary in price from Shuguan at $100 ish a pair to military issue NOS at 750++

I have had both in my systems. Yes I can clearly hear the difference a $750 pair made to SQ.

Having heard them in my amps I gave them back and bought some at a price I could afford at quarter the price. I used the compromise $ to upgrade my weakest component. 

The choice is each of ours to make depends on how cashed up you are. 

Currently I run a Cpair it Cary audio mono blocks with 4 x 300b per side. So 8 300b at $400 U.S. = $3200= $4000 + Oz < did thes figures quite a while back

I could buy a hi end component  with the change and lowered the noise floor of my system.

Each to our own hifi obsession.

 

 

 

So it was you that bought the Cary mono blocks

[djb]

Lol what a good memory you have

i can truly use that ancient acronym ROFL

 

Who bought  begun I think by Nude who died about7-8 years back

Edited December 23, 2018 by djb

[eman]

On 18/12/2018 at 9:37 PM, Blade74 said:

 

Yes the KT88 Tubes have Cayin printed on them.
The single 6NS7 tube is a Tung Sol.

There's a number of the old manufacturers names that are being used on new tubes. Tung-Sol is one of them.  The new ones are not the same as the old ones.

[Guest Muon N']

1 hour ago, eman said:

There's a number of the old manufacturers names that are being used on new tubes. Tung-Sol is one of them.  The new ones are not the same as the old ones.

Damn that New Sensor, much more sorting needed when choosing tubes since they bought out most of the old brands. As if it wasn't a chore already to find the tubes we want

 

They did add a couple of tubes types, which was nice I guess.

[Guest deanB]

4 hours ago, Muon N' said:

Damn that New Sensor

They have given us the EH6CA7 'fat bottle' though, which is what I'd be fitting to the Cayin if it was mine. And I don't mind the Gold Lion KT77 either, though the EH and GL sound nothing alike.

[Blade74]

I wouldn't have expected that.  I think higher gain tubes nearest the input make the biggest difference to sound usually. 

After having found what each tube does I’d say the 12bh7 and kt88s would make the biggest difference.