Tell me about 300B tubes.

[wheelz.cpw.inc]

Hey Peoples, 

 

I'm pretty new to the tube world, my first step was picking up a Vincent SV-236 MKII hybrid which i'm enamored with. This has given me a little bit of an understanding surrounding 12AX7's, but beyond that i'm reasonably clueless. 

 

I just came across a Yaqin MS-300C at a ridiculously good price so now i need to get my head around some new info to start my tube rolling journey. 

 

Basic specs of the amp are as follows: Tube: 300B x 2 (Output Tubes) 6N8P x 2 (Drivers and Cathode followers) 12AT7 x 2 (Voltage amplifiers) 5Z3P x l (Rectifier) Maximum Output: 9.5W x2 (8ohm) Output Jacks: Two channels with two groups of gold plated jacks Headphone jack on the front panel Speaker Output: Impedance: 4ohm and 8ohm Headphone Output: Impedance: 32ohm (Recommended) Input Jacks: Four groups of gold plated isolated RCA jacks Input Sensitivity: 0.3V Distortion of Harmonic Wave: <=<=1% (at 4W) Frequency Response: 5Hz ~ 35KHz (-2dB) Signal-to-Noise Ratio: >89dB (A weight) Remote Controller: Infrared control and powered by 2 AAA batteries Supply Voltage: AC 115V 60Hz Power Consumption: 200W

 

I would assume that getting some quality 300B's and maybe a new rectifier would be the best place to start, but beyond that i'm gonna get pretty lost pretty quick. 300B's seem to be mostly manufactured by different companies compared to the 12ax7s i have experience with. Psvane and Shuguang which are seemingly replicas (of WE stuff) seem to be pretty easily available, am i crazy starting here or should i be looking at something else.  

 

Thanks in advance. 

-WheelZ

[Happy]

IME the differences between the 300Bs are not so much about quality (unless plain faulty) but more about personal preferences and how they react with the amp circuit. Obviously some are way more expensive over others but that doesn’t necessarily mean you will prefer them over others. I’d suggest getting some different tubes secondhand and see it for yourself if you prefer one over another. 

[A9X]

35 minutes ago, wheelz.cpw.inc said:

This has given me a little bit of an understanding surrounding 12AX7's

If it's that they're the worst ube in common use for audio, they you have learned something.

28 minutes ago, Happy said:

but more about personal preferences and how they react with the amp circuit.

A 300B is a 'type'. All 300Bs should be reasonably close to the WE in terms of curves, or they're not really a 300B. Just a tube with that painted on the envelope.

29 minutes ago, Happy said:

I’d suggest getting some different tubes secondhand and see it for yourself if you prefer one over another. 

Then how do you know if it's that brand or perhaps age or damage.

[Happy]

8 minutes ago, A9X said:

If it's that they're the worst ube in common use for audio, they you have learned something.

A 300B is a 'type'. All 300Bs should be reasonably close to the WE in terms of curves, or they're not really a 300B. Just a tube with that painted on the envelope.

Then how do you know if it's that brand or perhaps age or damage.

Well so be it. That’s what’s available out there and arguing over which is real has no practical value to the OP. 

 

Regarding the damage etc that applies to most used gear in audio anyway.

[A9X]

Just now, Happy said:

Regarding the damage etc that applies to most used gear in audio anyway.

But if you're wanting to "tube roll" then what's the point at all unless you know they're good?

[Happy]

1 minute ago, A9X said:

But if you're wanting to "tube roll" then what's the point at all unless you know they're good?

Take some risk as with most used audio gear? 

[A9X]

4 minutes ago, Happy said:

Take some risk as with most used audio gear?

You've missed the point completely.

[Happy]

Just now, A9X said:

You've missed the point completely.

So have you

[ophool]

Really good 300B tubes, Takatsuki, Elrog, KR, EML will probably cost more each than your amplifier and may well exceed its ability to show their quality.  NOS WE if they can be found will be similar and a lottery as to potential life.

300B are perhaps the most expensive to try tube rolling, on your amp I would consider the rectifier, small signal and driver tubes as the best to try tube rolling.

[Happy]

1 minute ago, ophool said:

Really good 300B tubes, Takatsuki, Elrog, KR, EML will probably cost more each than your amplifier and may well exceed its ability to show their quality.  NOS WE if they can be found will be similar and a lottery as to potential life.

300B are perhaps the most expensive to try tube rolling, on your amp I would consider the rectifier, small signal and driver tubes as the best to try tube rolling.

The tragedy IME was that 300b amps tend to respond better to power tube rolling over others...turns the amp into almost something different 

[wheelz.cpw.inc]

1 hour ago, Happy said:

IME the differences between the 300Bs are not so much about quality (unless plain faulty) but more about personal preferences and how they react with the amp circuit. Obviously some are way more expensive over others but that doesn’t necessarily mean you will prefer them over others. I’d suggest getting some different tubes secondhand and see it for yourself if you prefer one over another. 

Hmmm, interesting. I was thinking that getting a variety to suss out was going to be a reasonable plan, i guess i was hoping that i might be able to narrow down some places to start. Given that they are a bit more expensive than what i've been playing with so far and they appear to be more difficult to "bargain hunt" for, if i can educate myself a little first i might be able to throw money in more useful directions 

[Happy]

1 minute ago, wheelz.cpw.inc said:

Hmmm, interesting. I was thinking that getting a variety to suss out was going to be a reasonable plan, i guess i was hoping that i might be able to narrow down some places to start. Given that they are a bit more expensive than what i've been playing with so far and they appear to be more difficult to "bargain hunt" for, if i can educate myself a little first i might be able to throw money in more useful directions 

Whichever you do, try mesh plates they’re sooo pretty at least. Soundwise generally more transparent than say robust.

[wheelz.cpw.inc]

1 hour ago, A9X said:

If it's that they're the worst ube in common use for audio, they you have learned something.

A 300B is a 'type'. All 300Bs should be reasonably close to the WE in terms of curves, or they're not really a 300B. Just a tube with that painted on the envelope.

Then how do you know if it's that brand or perhaps age or damage.

- I guess it's more that i learned that they make a pretty incredible difference to the sound of my system, more than i expected to be honest as  may have been a little skeptical. How good or bad they are is probably pretty subjective i would imagine. 

- I thought a 300B tube was more about the electronic architecture than the shape? 

- I can probably just apply a little common sense to that problem. And i mean... if a broken tube sounds awesome and a fully functioning one sounds like a bag of d*cks, then what do i do? 

[wheelz.cpw.inc]

14 minutes ago, ophool said:

Really good 300B tubes, Takatsuki, Elrog, KR, EML will probably cost more each than your amplifier and may well exceed its ability to show their quality.  NOS WE if they can be found will be similar and a lottery as to potential life.

300B are perhaps the most expensive to try tube rolling, on your amp I would consider the rectifier, small signal and driver tubes as the best to try tube rolling.

Yeah. If i'm honest this is probably why i wasn't considering buying anything with 300B's just yet as i would have preferred to have a better idea what i was doing before throwing around that kinda coin. But when something this cheap falls into your lap i'm not entirely sure it is possible not to buy it  

I was looking into using my 12ax7s in place of the at7s as i believe they are interchangeable in one direction but not the other, however i've yet to find definitive word on that problem.

 

The rectifier is something i want to consider changing as well.  I'm wondering if it is worth just buying some reasonable quality 300Bs so i know i have at least a solid base, then messing around with the others a little. Save rolling the big boys for a time when i have a little more money to burn.

[wheelz.cpw.inc]

14 minutes ago, Happy said:

Whichever you do, try mesh plates they’re sooo pretty at least. Soundwise generally more transparent than say robust.

You're not wrong, they're pretty as hell. 

 

When you say transparent vs robust i am guessing you're saying that they tend to improve clarity, staging, detail etc, more than say, adding weight to particular areas?

[Mendes]

Genelex Golden Lions are a very good sounding 300B tube and will not send you broke. Excellent really for the coin!!

 

Others mileage may vary..............good luck with your search!!

[wheelz.cpw.inc]

7 minutes ago, Mendes said:

Genelex Golden Lions are a very good sounding 300B tube and will not send you broke. Excellent really for the coin!!

 

Others mileage may vary..............good luck with your search!!

Shortlisted. 

 

Thanks you kindly, i'm fairly confident i will  

[Happy]

7 minutes ago, wheelz.cpw.inc said:

You're not wrong, they're pretty as hell. 

 

When you say transparent vs robust i am guessing you're saying that they tend to improve clarity, staging, detail etc, more than say, adding weight to particular areas?

Pretty much yeah.

 

[wheelz.cpw.inc]

2 minutes ago, Happy said:

Pretty much yeah.

 

Now, i'm almost positive that buying audio gear based on aesthetics isn't the best idea, but i'm not entirely sure i care all of a sudden. 

[Happy]

2 minutes ago, wheelz.cpw.inc said:

Now, i'm almost positive that buying audio gear based on aesthetics isn't the best idea, 

Probably not the best but it’s a pretty good idea in many cases

[wheelz.cpw.inc]

4 minutes ago, Happy said:

Probably not the best but it’s a pretty good idea in many cases

An unreasonable amount of the decision surrounding my amp purchase weighed on it having a VU meter. Because... well... it's a VU meter! 

I'm probably own one of Erics by know if i wasn't so hung up on it  

[Willco]

Yes well the venerable 300b--some luv--some hate---depends whom you accost I suppose. I have a 300B amp and it works well for my tastes and location.

 

The Tube has certainly has come a long way up the Audio chain, for a product originally designed to carry squeaky voices in a wire across the Atlantic

 

I've tried a few --sorry no Chinese ones--I always get the feeling with them its bit like that TV commercial "Are we there yet"

 

I did read Thorsten Loach ( AMR) put out a series of tests on the common ones available and found the TJ Full Music 300's ( Chinese?) the best he had heard

 

Its on the Net --but I haven't located it lately.

 

The E Harmonix's are OK good rugged and reliable--excellent value for the buck

 

Gold Lions --OK also slightly more detailed then the EH's-- bit overpriced but also reliable

 

Checking around the local traps --seems a sad dirth of brands and suppliers to try -- oh well --online maybe but ouch in the  Wallet with the falling $.

 

The upper priced tubes are just that --I'd recommend some more considerate ones as above first to check if the 300B flavour is to your liking

 

Good Luck,

 

Willco

[wheelz.cpw.inc]

12 minutes ago, Willco said:

Yes well the venerable 300b--some luv--some hate---depends whom you accost I suppose. I have a 300B amp and it works well for my tastes and location.

 

The Tube has certainly has come a long way up the Audio chain, for a product originally designed to carry squeaky voices in a wire across the Atlantic

 

I've tried a few --sorry no Chinese ones--I always get the feeling with them its bit like that TV commercial "Are we there yet"

 

I did read Thorsten Loach ( AMR) put out a series of tests on the common ones available and found the TJ Full Music 300's ( Chinese?) the best he had heard

 

Its on the Net --but I haven't located it lately.

 

The E Harmonix's are OK good rugged and reliable--excellent value for the buck

 

Gold Lions --OK also slightly more detailed then the EH's-- bit overpriced but also reliable

 

Checking around the local traps --seems a sad dirth of brands and suppliers to try -- oh well --online maybe but ouch in the  Wallet with the falling $.

 

The upper priced tubes are just that --I'd recommend some more considerate ones as above first to check if the 300B flavour is to your liking

 

Good Luck,

 

Willco

Thanks Wilco. 

 

They're seemingly a little more difficult to find as well as more expensive than others I've played with thus far. It's likely to be a hell of an exercise in self control  

[wheelz.cpw.inc]

1 hour ago, wheelz.cpw.inc said:

Hmmm, interesting. I was thinking that getting a variety to suss out was going to be a reasonable plan, i guess i was hoping that i might be able to narrow down some places to start. Given that they are a bit more expensive than what i've been playing with so far and they appear to be more difficult to "bargain hunt" for, if i can educate myself a little first i might be able to throw money in more useful directions 

Just came across this:

"Before we go into the details, I want to emphasize that every 300B tested had the typical 300B sound character. Sound-quality differences were by no means irrelevant, but were smaller in my experience than those between the best and the worst 6SN7 or ECC83/12AX7 that I have heard. So even the most modest 300B should bring you some of that magic."
 

 

- Makes me think you might know what you'er talking about. 

[Happy]

37 minutes ago, wheelz.cpw.inc said:

An unreasonable amount of the decision surrounding my amp purchase weighed on it having a VU meter. Because... well... it's a VU meter! 

I'm probably own one of Erics by know if i wasn't so hung up on it  

I love VU meters too but not on tube amps....