Visible Pixel Size: A Showdown Between Cih And Ciw Setups

[oztheatre]

I hope the words "Coincidentally that's a 1.8:1 viewing distance to screen width ratio, around the same as mine for movie viewing 1.77:1 to 1.9:1" rang a massive bell

Have moved up close to a CRT TV only to see the shadow mask.........!?

VR goggles would be a damn good option.....but if you have a few people in the room.....projection is the answer.

Yes but HJ immersion is not relative to screen size, if it did we could all just watch movies from 1 foot away on a 22 inch lcd monitor... I've done that thing at the movies where you measure the height of the screen with your fingers and surprisingly, depending where I sit of course, my 135 scope screen has been bigger 'to the eye' than the real cinema screen. At other times the cinema screen will be bigger but not by much. But the level of immersion one gets from the real cinema cannot be re created because of the grand scale of it all. The screen at the cinema will always look and feel bigger and grander. The screen size immersion comparison does not translate on paper so well. Nintendo DS at 5cm I don't think so. Though I think those goggles and 3D might have something happening.. Lawnmower man lookout.

All us scope movie lovers want to do is replicate what we've grown up with at the movies, not settle for TV style black bars for our favourite blockbuster films, that were meant to viewed on a bigger and grander scale - Cinemascope.... You chose to have a smaller screen and masked it and it works for your room, but the majority of rooms are not width restricted. The point is you cannot get that same level of immersion people get from 130 and 150 inch scope screens. You might think it's great and no doubt it is, your screen shots look good, but it's small compared to 2.37 scope and smaller screens lacks the extra impact....My 135 screen is 4.197 sq metres of stunning immersive image and can be comfortably viewed right across a 5 metre span at anywhere from 3 to 6 metres. Your letterboxed 92 inch scope image is 1.741 sq metres, or 241% smaller.. There is just no way to get that full level of immersion from a small screen no matter how close you sit up against it. To get my current 135 inch scope image from a 16:9 screen I would have required 143 inch 16:9 screen and that is too big for a 6 metre deep room.. my 135 scope is a 107 inch 16:9 screen ie perfect for my room at anywhere from 3 to 6 metres.

Home Cinema is meant to be a small scale replica of the real thing afterall..

[Highjinx]

Yes but HJ immersion is not relative to screen size, if it did we could all just watch movies from 1 foot away on a 22 inch lcd monitor... I've done that thing at the movies where you measure the height of the screen with your fingers and surprisingly, depending where I sit of course, my 135 scope screen has been bigger 'to the eye' than the real cinema screen. At other times the cinema screen will be bigger but not by much. But the level of immersion one gets from the real cinema cannot be re created because of the grand scale of it all. The screen at the cinema will always look and feel bigger and grander. The screen size immersion comparison does not translate on paper so well. Nintendo DS at 5cm I don't think so. Though I think those goggles and 3D might have something happening.. Lawnmower man lookout.

All us scope movie lovers want to do is replicate what we've grown up with at the movies, not settle for TV style black bars for our favourite blockbuster films, that were meant to viewed on a bigger and grander scale - Cinemascope.... You chose to have a smaller screen and masked it and it works for your room, but the majority of rooms are not width restricted. The point is you cannot get that same level of immersion people get from 130 and 150 inch scope screens. You might think it's great and no doubt it is, your screen shots look good, but it's small compared to 2.37 scope and smaller screens lacks the extra impact....My 135 screen is 4.197 sq metres of stunning immersive image and can be comfortably viewed right across a 5 metre span at anywhere from 3 to 6 metres. Your letterboxed 92 inch scope image is 1.741 sq metres, or 241% smaller.. There is just no way to get that full level of immersion from a small screen no matter how close you sit up against it. To get my current 135 inch scope image from a 16:9 screen I would have required 143 inch 16:9 screen and that is too big for a 6 metre deep room.. my 135 scope is a 107 inch 16:9 screen ie perfect for my room at anywhere from 3 to 6 metres.

Home Cinema is meant to be a small scale replica of the real thing afterall..

Hmmm don't quite agree on the bigger the size the better the immersion thing........but hey what's new!

The point I was making was the larger the screen image the larger the pixel size requiring the viewer to sit at the same viewing ratio to resolve the image, be it for the small screen or the larger one, thus the immersion is going to be the same on either screen with the same 1080p projector panel.

Having a super contrasty, well resolved image goes a heck of a long way to create that "reality" and immersion, as I said above the sitting ratios be it a large or small screen will be the same to get the sharpest most resolved image because the limiting factor is the 1080p panel.....the bigger the screen the further away one must sit to resolve the 1080 image though the viewing ratio remains the same.

But having said that I am quite happy with just 4 seating positions, which has helped me get a bright and at that screen size/sitting distance a superbly resolved and contrasty image......had I gone bigger I would have scarificed brightness & contrast. If I had the need to seat more people, then a bigger screen, I would have definitly installed......one can't have everything.....hmmm perhaps a smaller screen to go along with the bigger one when only two to four people are viewing?

I sure projectors will continue to improve where we will have 2000+ lumens and 500,000:1 CR before long, so having more seating and larger screens would go hand in hand with the new projectors.

Perhaps in a decade or so we will have direct view 8k drop down Oled screens that we could sit at 0.5:1 ratios.

[Sean_Melb]

I sure projectors will continue to improve where we will have 2000+ lumens and 500,000:1 CR before long, so having more seating and larger screens would go hand in hand with the new projectors.

Perhaps in a decade or so we will have direct view 8k drop down Oled screens that we could sit at 0.5:1 ratios.

Holey crap - why are you not working for the developing companies with your vast knowlege HJ???? Hope you dont as we wouldnt have scope screens to enjoy if you did.

[CAVX]

Hmmm don't quite agree on the bigger the size the better the immersion thing........but hey what's new!

You so need to drag yourself away from your "TV" and visit a real cinema to see what this is all about.

[mazman1503559902]

He knows he is wrong, but he is so staburn he wont tell you that, he would rather keep telling himself that his way is best.

Seems to me he has made up his mind, and when its set there is no going back, no amount of explaining to him will change his view.

[MACCA350]

Holey crap - why are you not working for the developing companies with your vast knowlege HJ????

NO!!! Don't even suggest that............they'd never get them from prototype stage into production

cheers

Edited August 10, 2009 by MACCA350

[Highjinx]

He knows he is wrong, but he is so staburn he wont tell you that, he would rather keep telling himself that his way is best.

Seems to me he has made up his mind, and when its set there is no going back, no amount of explaining to him will change his view.

No HJ is correct....most vocal here forget the "container" size in consumer HD is limited to carry 1920 x 1080 thus irrespective of the screen size, the sitting ratio in order to resolve the image will be the same be it a smaller or larger projection screen.

35mm or 70 mm or Imax film have a vastly greater "container" thus sitting ratios are much smaller ie one can sit much closer and still resolve the image perfectly.

Current HD 1920 x 1080

35mm 3 mil to 12million pixels (1.4 to 6x HD)

Imax 10000 x 7000 (33 x HD)

That means that Imax has 33 times the resolution of HD so one can sit at a closer ratio for greater immersion with the same screen size.

One cannot sit at a closer ratio with large screen vs a small screen if displaying the same resolution....there is a point where the image is at it's best.

I'm talking ratio here not a specific distance.

Either some simply cannot comprehend or it's purposeful manuplitation of the reality........ahemmm!....commercial gain......bunch of HT salesmen here?

Ever seen those blown up posters where from a far distance they look cohesive and blended...walk up to them and all you see are a bunch of dots, or ever had a 35mm print and had it enlarged and discovered it was impossible to resolve the image of the larger print from same distance as the smaller one....same thing here 1920 x 1080 does not become 4096 x 3002 when you use a larger screen, those pixels simply get bigger, forcing one to sit at a greater distance but the same ratio to a smaller screen!

That is clear enough....Yes?

Edited August 10, 2009 by Highjinx

[Highjinx]

I sure projectors will continue to improve where we will have 2000+ lumens and 500,000:1 CR before long, so having more seating and larger screens would go hand in hand with the new projectors.

Perhaps in a decade or so we will have direct view 8k drop down Oled screens that we could sit at 0.5:1 ratios.

Holey crap - why are you not working for the developing companies with your vast knowlege HJ???? Hope you dont as we wouldnt have scope screens to enjoy if you did.

Hey......I'm working on a hybrid LCos/Dlp.......it's a 4 panel design, 3LCos and one DLP, the DLP is the final panel where the image of the 3 merged LCos panel meet, the DLP chip is of the same resolution as the LCos panel/s, but is used for switching off the light reflected to it by the already dimmed corresponding LCos pixel/s.....you should see the ANSI let alone the ON/OFF.

[CAVX]

No HJ is correct....most vocal here forget the "container" size in consumer HD is limited to carry 1920 x 1080 thus irrespective of the screen size, the sitting ratio in order to resolve the image will be the same be it a smaller or larger projection screen.

35mm or 70 mm or Imax film have a vastly greater "container" thus sitting ratios are much smaller ie one can sit much closer and still resolve the image perfectly.

Current HD 1920 x 1080

35mm 3 mil to 12million pixels (1.4 to 6x HD)

Imax 10000 x 7000 (33 x HD)

That means that Imax has 33 times the resolution of HD so one can sit at a closer ratio for greater immersion with the same screen size.

Where do you get your information or is that mis information from? Film does not have pixels HJ. 1920 x 1080 is the most advanced comsumer video system to date. How did you cope with VHS?

One cannot sit at a closer ratio with large screen vs a small screen if displaying the same resolution....there is a point where the image is at it's best.

Again, clearly (yes pun intended) you've not seen D-Cinema. They have 1080 vertical pixels, just like our HT projectors HJ. They look as sharp as any BD at home.

I'm talking ratio here not a specific distance.

Either some simply cannot comprehend or it's purposeful manuplitation of the reality........ahemmm!....commercial gain......bunch of HT salesmen here?

what ever

[Highjinx]

Where do you get your information or is that mis information from? Film does not have pixels HJ. 1920 x 1080 is the most advanced comsumer video system to date. How did you cope with VHS?

Know that!................... it's a pixel count approximation for comparison sake!

VHS was ok on a 26" CRT

Again, clearly (yes pun intended) you've not seen D-Cinema. They have 1080 vertical pixels, just like our HT projectors HJ. They look as sharp as any BD at home.

what ever

Agree that low end film stock 35mm and D-Cinema are fairly close to 1080p to the eye from the same viewing ratios.

Folks check that Carlton Bale's excellent Excel spread and panel/vs distant chart one can select AR for the screen, panel resoution, screen height, width or diagonal......etc....etc

I was playing around with this today...........in putted 1920 x 1080 and 2.35:1 screen height then 1.78:1 screen height, there was a viewing distance point where if the front was considered too close for the panel 1080 resolution a dialogue box came up saying "to sit closer a higher resolution projector may be required".....or similar words.....very interesting Colonel!

Link

Download and have a play........grab a calculator........work out the optimal ratios.............alarm bells will go off!.......lights globes will turn on!!! ahhhhh! Check out all the tabs!

[50mxe20]

Link

Download and have a play........grab a calculator........work out the optimal ratios.............alarm bells will go off!.......lights globes will turn on!!! ahhhhh! Check out all the tabs!

Neat. Looks comprehensive and complicated. But might be of help.

[Highjinx]

Neat. Looks comprehensive and complicated. But might be of help.

Also has an A-Lens setting!

It's got a wealth of info.......! You are gonna av' fun Lyle!

[roachy]

I'll do real world testing with my system in my room any day rather than play with a spreadsheet

[50mxe20]

I'll do real world testing with my system in my room any day rather than play with a spreadsheet

Lucky you.

Some of us are just planning and dreaming.

[roachy]

Lucky you.

Some of us are just planning and dreaming.

So am I mate. About to move into my first home in about a month, then I can work out the optimum screen size for my room. Regardless of screen sizes etc, as long as you are happy with the end result it doesn't matter what anybody else thinks

Edited August 12, 2009 by roachy

[50mxe20]

So am I mate. About to move into my first home in about a month, then I can work out the optimum screen size for my room. Regardless of screen sizes etc, as long as you are happy with the end result it doesn't matter what anybody else thinks

Someday maybe someday.

[Nevyn72]

Someday maybe someday.

You don't plan on being happy?

Oh, that's right you suffer from the same chronic "upgradeitis" that we all seem to be infected with..... I wounder at what point the WHO will declare it a paydemic?

[50mxe20]

You don't plan on being happy?

WAF, my friend, WAF.

[SimonNo10]

WAF= What Another Firesale

[riadmelb]

When I decided to install projector at my place, I wanted 2.37 movies to look wider than 16:9, and I went CIH, I didn't really do any calculations or maths. It is working really well for me.

[MACCA350]

WHAT!!!............who let the normal guys through the door...........gonna have to talk to the bouncer about that

cheers

[Highjinx]

Know of a projector manufacturer, wasn't too concerned about the maths, panel resolution or the lens quality...........settled for a pin hole.....& a 75 watt Osram.......threw an image....I guess some would consider good, till they saw better.............the manufacturer didn't sell any..........funny that!

Each to their own.........some are just perfectionists, want everything to be spot on based on the science, others want a big picture first, image quality a 2nd........good luck to both types and those in between in achieving their objectives!

[roachy]

others want a big picture first, image quality a 2nd

These need not be mutually exclusive.

[Sean_Melb]

Each to their own.........some are just perfectionists, want everything to be spot on based on the science, others want a big picture first, image quality a 2nd........good luck to both types and those in between in achieving their objectives!

The trouble with HJ is he refuses to believe that there can be both together - he either wants to believe that cause he cant afford it or is stubborn to the point of stupidity no idea which - didnt mark say he suspected he saw him at the expo bagging scope with the 350 setup - maybe it just looked to good to be true.....

All this crap on about science its like hes trying to make out he invented this stuff....

By the way I have a 121 custom 3d evo scope screen and a AMIII lens - just havent updated my sig block to reflect it.

[Highjinx]

These need not be mutually exclusive.

There is one frequently overlooked issue with increasing screen size, is the drop in brightness, in order to compensate for the drop in brightness and one installs the projector closer to the screen to open up the lenses iris, then one loses on/off contrast......unfortunate by factual.