Gieseler Audio Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 Hi everyone, there are quite a few Klein II's out there now so I thought I better start an owners thread where you can leave feedback cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suopermanni Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 Out of curiousity, would the klein dac II as a dac equal the dac/pre's dac section? Just really needing a dac. Also, saving the 2k+ might be problematic atm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
custom_made Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 Out of curiousity, would the klein dac II as a dac equal the dac/pre's dac section? Just really needing a dac. Also, saving the 2k+ might be problematic atm. A similar question was asked in the Dac/pre wish list thread. Q: "You've probably already mentioned this, but is the DAC stage in the DAC/PRE combo the same as your latest DSD DAC in terms of sonic performance?" A: The digital/DAC circuit is the same but the power supplies have been improved a little. It terms of performance they are probably very similar. The DAC section in the DAC/Pre is a much smaller PCB than the Klein II because it has no filter/output stage, all that part is on the main preamp board. Also the main raw DC & pre filtering for the DAC is on a seperate PSU board. I think maybe because those two important sections are physically seperated from the digital part the overall sound is a little cleaner too if you follow. I will probably make a higher end DAC only based on the DAC/Pre layout/topology so suit customers who already have a good preamp or intergrated. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suopermanni Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 Cheers for finding that, custom_made! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 (edited) Got my Klein II a few days ago and I must say this is certainly an amazing sounding DAC. I have had 2 high end DAC's in my system over the last few years. First one was a Moon 380D (around 7k) which I didn't like the sound of at all so I sold it. My current one is an Antelope Gold DAC (around 3k) which is a great unit but I find that it pushes the highs a bit in the DAC section so it's pretty fatiguing for my ears even after a short time listening. So I'm just using the pre amp on the Antelope with the Klein. The Klein sounds very natural indeed. It's got a real nice full bodied sound and the bass is great. The imaging is so stable and the sound stage is awesome. It's super smooth on the highs which is perfect for my system. I just got new floor standers with ribbon tweeters so the detail is superb. I briefly heard a PS Audio Direct Stream early in the year and I think this is comparable. They both sound warm and not so digital. Also USB audio out of my Mac has never sounded so good. I do most of my listen on my Rega CD player using digital out into the Klein. But the Klein is so good through USB, I think I'll be playing a lot more computer audio now. It's going to be great to hear all my music again through this fantastic DAC. Edited July 31, 2016 by Jonny 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matth Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 Got my Klein II a few days ago and I must say this is certainly an amazing sounding DAC. I have had 2 high end DAC's in my system over the last few years. First one was a Moon 380D (around 7k) which I didn't like the sound of at all so I sold it. My current one is an Antelope Gold DAC (around 3k) which is a great unit but I find that it pushes the highs a bit in the DAC section so it's pretty fatiguing for my ears even after a short time listening. So I'm just using the pre amp on the Antelope with the Klein. The Klein sounds very natural indeed. It's got a real nice full bodied sound and the bass is great. The imaging is so stable and the sound stage is awesome. It's super smooth on the highs which is perfect for my system. I just got new floor standers with ribbon tweeters so the detail is superb. I briefly heard a PS Audio Direct Stream early in the year and I think this is comparable. They both sound warm and not so digital. Also USB audio out of my Mac has never sounded so good. I do most of my listen on my Rega CD player using digital out into the Klein. But the Klein is so good through USB, I think I'll be playing a lot more computer audio now. It's going to be great to hear all my music again through this fantastic DAC. Thanks for sharing. Did you play PCM or DSD or both? Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 Just PCM files. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demondes Posted September 11, 2016 Share Posted September 11, 2016 I would interested to see some further reviews of the Klein DAC ii. Dsd performance etc. For example Is there any benefit in upsampling from roon or hqplayer before sending to the dac? Has anyone tried the filters? I am looking around at the moment but not wanting to jump in the wrong direction as i currently have 2 inbuilt dacs (moon 350p neo preamp - no DSD) and the dsd capable dac in the yamaha cd-s2100. Trouble i now have an antipodes ds ssd (latest version) and because the yamaha doesn't like anything that isnt using the steinberg usb driver i cannot connect the antipodes to it so have gone back to the moon dac. Also using roon. Some dacs considered but not tested; giesler klein dac ii, metrum nos dac, and possibly something like mytek brooklyn. All very different. The dac obviously must work without usb drivers for linux, would like to have dsd support metrum doesnt). The brooklyn also has internal functions i dont plan to use in the dac such as headphone preamp etc. Havent come across the dac chip used in the klein dac ii are there any other dacs using that chip? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gieseler Audio Posted September 13, 2016 Author Share Posted September 13, 2016 (edited) The Klein II uses the AKM AK4490EQ http://www.akm.com/akm/en/product/datasheet1/?partno=AK4490EQ It is the premium DAC chip in the AKM range. The link shows lots of products that use it. To name a few The flagship Marantz & Denon AV Preamps/receivers, TEAC UD503 & Esoteric SACD players. It is a relatively new design released in December 2014. Also a interesting link that shows why TEAC picked the AK4490EQ for their UD503 http://www.absolutesound.com.sg/news-updates/why-did-teac-use-the-ak4490-dac-in-the-ud-503/ Hope that helps regards Clay Edited September 13, 2016 by Gieseler Audio 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demondes Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 10 minutes ago, Gieseler Audio said: The Klein II uses the AKM AK4490EQ http://www.akm.com/akm/en/product/datasheet1/?partno=AK4490EQ It is the premium DAC chip in the AKM range. The link shows lots of products that use it. To name a few The flagship Marantz & Denon AV Preamps/receivers, TEAC UD503 & Esoteric SACD players. It is a relatively new design released in December 2014. Also a interesting link that shows why TEAC picked the AK4490EQ for their UD503 http://www.absolutesound.com.sg/news-updates/why-did-teac-use-the-ak4490-dac-in-the-ud-503/ Hope that helps regards Clay Thanks Clay I did go back and reread the other threads on the Klein DACII. Lots of useful information in those which I should have read first, including pictures of the LCD screen on (not shown on the website). Just out of interest someone mentioned a new DAC CHIP the AK4497EQ. Will that replace the AK4490EQ any stage soon in the Klein DAC, I guess it would depend if that forces you to do a total rebuild of your design? Secondly, would we notice the difference sound wise if it was replaced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AudioGeek Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 I have been researching the akm chips recently. From what I can gather in dsd volume bypass mode the 4490 and 4497 are identical. The improvements in the 4497 compared to the 4490 relate to pcm, may in fact be worse for dsd as the 4497 uses more power. Also, performance at dsd512 is not guaranteed on the 4497 - they have a disclaimer. Dsd256 is no issue on either chip. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gieseler Audio Posted September 14, 2016 Author Share Posted September 14, 2016 (edited) AudioGeek - you are certainly on the ball re tech details. Actually I already have a sample AK4497EQ DAC chip & have built up a prototype. I have done some brief comparisons between the two & there does not seem to be much of a difference. In the Klein DAC I run the AK4490EQ at 6.8v (max 7v) for the analogue section & that is definitely better than 5v sound wise. With the AK4497EQ the data sheet does not show a 7v option for the analogue section so the AK4490EQ seems to have an advantage there. With my new upcoming DAC/Pre there will be a very reasonable cost upgrade option to change the digital board over to a AK4497EQ version if desired. It is modular with a totally separate boards so it is easy to swap the small digital board. The Amanero USB unplugs so that can be swapped over which reduces the cost. When I get more time I will do some more in depth comparison between the two chips & report back. I think the AK4497EQ may be delayed for commercial production - it is past the ETA now. I keep quizzing AKM about it but get no response. PS Demondes this link will bring up the updated website http://gieseler.com.au/ProductsPage/index.html There is glitch we are working on where the old one keeps popping up Glitch now fixed Edited September 14, 2016 by Gieseler Audio 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matth Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 On 14. September 2016 at 2:57 AM, Gieseler Audio said: With my new upcoming DAC/Pre there will be a very reasonable cost upgrade option to change the digital board over to a AK4497EQ version if desired. It is modular with a totally separate boards so it is easy to swap the small digital board. The Amanero USB unplugs so that can be swapped over which reduces the cost. Hi Clay, do you have plans to use this modular approach for your standalone DACs as well? Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gieseler Audio Posted September 15, 2016 Author Share Posted September 15, 2016 Hi Matt, I had not really considered building just a a DAC like that but I will certainly look at that possibility. With say the Klein DAC there is not enough room for modular contruction but with a larger version there would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matth Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, Gieseler Audio said: Hi Matt, I had not really considered building just a a DAC like that but I will certainly look at that possibility. With say the Klein DAC there is not enough room for modular contruction but with a larger version there would be. Thanks, I mean that both the DAC module and the PS module from your DAC/Pre fit together in one case which is much smaller than the DAC/Pre. Matt Edited September 16, 2016 by matth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matth Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 (edited) On 14.9.2016 at 3:57 AM, Gieseler Audio said: AudioGeek - you are certainly on the ball re tech details. Actually I already have a sample AK4497EQ DAC chip & have built up a prototype. I have done some brief comparisons between the two & there does not seem to be much of a difference. In the Klein DAC I run the AK4490EQ at 6.8v (max 7v) for the analogue section & that is definitely better than 5v sound wise. With the AK4497EQ the data sheet does not show a 7v option for the analogue section so the AK4490EQ seems to have an advantage there. With my new upcoming DAC/Pre there will be a very reasonable cost upgrade option to change the digital board over to a AK4497EQ version if desired. It is modular with a totally separate boards so it is easy to swap the small digital board. The Amanero USB unplugs so that can be swapped over which reduces the cost. When I get more time I will do some more in depth comparison between the two chips & report back. I think the AK4497EQ may be delayed for commercial production - it is past the ETA now. I keep quizzing AKM about it but get no response. PS Demondes this link will bring up the updated website http://gieseler.com.au/ProductsPage/index.html There is glitch we are working on where the old one keeps popping up Glitch now fixed Linn changed the chip manufacturer and use now AKM chips in their new Katalyst DAC as well. Matt Edited September 25, 2016 by matth 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suopermanni Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 @scumbag Next week, I will be a proud owner of a Klein DAC II! That is once I put the money down and not before! Will definitely compare with a DAC or two like Gungnir Multibit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Spyne~ Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 2 minutes ago, Suopermanni said: @scumbag Next week, I will be a proud owner of a Klein DAC II! That is once I put the money down and not before! Will definitely compare with a DAC or two like Gungnir Multibit! This comparison I would be interested in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suopermanni Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 You can thank atsq for me getting the Gungnir Multibit! He offered me a great price for the one he had! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suopermanni Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 @~Spyne~ Recieved the Klein DAC II and Gungnir Multibit! Burning both in at the moment. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suopermanni Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 Intial impressions on the Single Ended Outputs of the Gungnir and the Klein DAC II is that they are both very close! Tested on ZMF Omni on a Audio GD C-2 19th Anniversary Edition amp on Low Gain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jermaink Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 Is that testing with PCM, DSD (or both)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suopermanni Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 Only PCM files as i do not have any dsd files and gungnir is not a dsd dac. Will try with an open headphone next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jermaink Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 Fair enough! It would be great though if you (or anyone) could comment on DSD playback as I thought that was the main difference between the Klein DAC I and II. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 I've got a couple of releases recorded to DSD from Native DSD Music and they sound incredible through the Klein II. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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