DVICO HDTV USB - Looks Choppy!

[matte]

I was wondering if anyone would be able to help me out...

I have a Fusion USB and when i watch any sport with it the video image looks extremely choppy...

what i mean about this is that the video (live TV) just doesnt play smoothly. I have looked at AFL and Rugby legue and they are almost unwatchable...

are there any tweaks that i am missing?

Matt E

[renura]

I was wondering if anyone would be able to help me out...

I have a Fusion USB and when i watch any sport with it the video image looks extremely choppy...

what i mean about this is that the video (live TV) just doesnt play smoothly. I have looked at AFL and Rugby legue and they are almost unwatchable...

are there any tweaks that i am missing?

Matt E

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Try changing video decoders, ensure appropriate display resolution and refresh rate (50, 75, 100hz)

[matte]

What video decoders do you recomend?

and i think the refresh rate is at 60Hz??? set for the monitor (an NEC Plasma display)

would it better if it was one of the 3 frequencies you suggested?

Matt Eastburn

[renura]

What video decoders do you recomend?

and i think the refresh rate is at 60Hz??? set for the monitor (an NEC Plasma display)

would it better if it was one of the 3 frequencies you suggested?

Matt Eastburn

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Matt,

The referesh rate should be 50Hz for Australian DTV. A multple of it is good eg 100hz, a compromise is 75Hz.

If you are using the DVICO software you can only choose between full software decoder and DxVA video decoder, try both and see which one gives you better results.

Also if you are using a projector, make sure that you are feeding your projector its native resolution, don't let it scale anything, for best results.

Cheers

Renura

[matte]

I am outputting my HTPC to an NEC plasma via DVI.

HTPC set to display at 1360x768 pixels at 60Hz - and the Plasma displays this at its native resoution (which is 1365x768, it just leaves 5 pixels at the sides blank).

Now the problem i have is that the plasma panel will not accept 50Hz at that resolution - well not what i have tried anyway...

and i am using MCE 2005...

any suggestions???

Matt E

[renura]

Now the problem i have is that the plasma panel will not accept 50Hz at that resolution - well not what i have tried anyway...

and i am using MCE 2005...

any suggestions???

Will it accept 100Hz or 75? If so use that.

[ijd]

I am outputting my HTPC to an NEC plasma via DVI.

HTPC set to display at 1360x768 pixels at 60Hz - and the Plasma displays this at its native resoution (which is 1365x768, it just leaves 5 pixels at the sides blank).

Now the problem i have is that the plasma panel will not accept 50Hz at that resolution - well not what i have tried anyway...

and i am using MCE 2005...

any suggestions???

Matt E

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Change your NEC 50" from '60Hz' to 'Auto' in the service menu. It will then synch to 50Hz over the DVI connection.

To access the service menu, press the following remote buttons in this order:

- Off Timer

- Exit

- Mute

- Off Timer

Toggle the 'V-FREQ OT' setting from 60Hz to Auto. Then repeat the remote button sequence to exit. Then press the Off Timer button twice more to get it back to 0.

[matte]

Thanks ijd and renura for your suggestions - will give it a go when i get home tonight after work.

So on the HTPC side of things i should use PowerStrip to leave the resolution the same (1360x768) but change the Frequency from 60Hz down to 50 Hz...

and change the setting (to AUTO) in the service menu of the plasma so it will accept 50Hz?

so this should remove the jumpy effect of my current setup?

If it doesnt - what is the Teac or Topfield like for picture image - any jumpiness there?

Matt E

[ijd]

Thanks ijd and renura for your suggestions - will give it a go when i get home tonight after work.

So on the HTPC side of things i should use PowerStrip to leave the resolution the same (1360x768) but change the Frequency from 60Hz down to 50 Hz...

and change the setting (to AUTO) in the service menu of the plasma so it will accept 50Hz?

so this should remove the jumpy effect of my current setup?

If it doesnt - what is the Teac or Topfield like for picture image - any jumpiness there?

Matt E

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The NECs are always jumpy with 50Hz material if left at the factory default 60Hz setting. Some of us don't really notice it after a while ... but it drives others nuts.

The Dvico should be no worse than any standalone STB ... as long as you have enough cpu grunt to drive the Dvico software. Both the Teac and Toppy are rock-solid at 50Hz on the NEC.

[matte]

the PC and TV were set up at 60Hz.

So i assume that it was jumpy becasue the DVICO was trying to play 50Hz broadcast TV at 60Hz...

but i will try your suggestions when i get home this afternoon.

Matt E

[matte]

OK - have had many issues tonight...

was able to get into the service menu and set what you said to AUTO - what is the difference between the Vertical Freq settings?

now when i use Power Strip to slowly go from a 60Hz to 50Hz - the display at anything below 55Hz says that there is "NO SIGNAL"...

and took ages to get the PC back to 60Hz.

should i just go and buy a set top box?

Matt E

[matte]

bump...

[renura]

now when i use Power Strip to slowly go from a 60Hz to 50Hz - the display at anything below 55Hz says that there is "NO SIGNAL"...

and took ages to get the PC back to 60Hz.

Matte,

I don't know anything about your projector, so I am not sure what it will sync to. I suggest you ask some one who has it working with 50Hz, etc about the detailed settings for powerstrip.

Cheers

Renura

[digitaladvisor]

There is quite alot of misinformation concerning our DTV being 50Hz along with DVD. They are looking for refesh solutions that WILL NOT resolve the MPEG/reception, hence decode issues.

The judder results due to 60Hz ARE NOT RELATED! As judder is NOT the SAME as STOP/START MPEG streaming/decoding.

Software/HARDWARE cause:

Stuttering (stop/start MPEG is when the device, codec DROPS frames due to poor decoding, poor reception, power flux issues either in computer, USB or inferior power supplies sending out fluxing EMI/RF. It is proven that RF/EMI on cheap power supplies increases as they get warm and power AMP ratings degrade.

The other:

The two may look simular but judder really is micro off beat refesh in high panning scenes caused by the 50Hz stream hitting a 60Hz refresh and result is the humn eye interpreting this stuttering.

IT IS ONLY SEEABLE judder IN HIGH MOVEMENT HORIZONTAL panning and that is a HUMAN perception of lack of smoothness, no FRAMES, interlacing, MPEG drop out, stop, start is the same. 60Hz DEOS NOT MPEG corruption like what your seeing thinking that 50Hz will magically resolve it.

A 50Hz HTV broadcast WILL be PERFECTLY smooth in MORE STATIC displays and slower movement on whatver refresh you have set including 60Hz.

Those having difficulty with 50Hz should target 75Hz if possible.

The terms and the way these are described can be interchangable and have led to a great deal misinformation concerning Refresh Rates and MPEG 5taggering on many forums including the USA forums.

Some stuff getting is absolute rubbish and the alot of information getting around is IMHO unreliable.

DA

[matte]

well i believe i have a judder problem (50Hz source meeting 60Hz refresh rate)...

it is especially noticeable during sport, when the players are running around.

and according to another post in this thread my Plasma will support a 50Hz refresh rate... but when i attempt to put the PC to 50Hz the screen goes blank.

So i might try getting my hands on a loner HD STB - which should be running at 50Hz and see what the display does then.

Matt E

[ijd]

well i believe i have a judder problem (50Hz source meeting 60Hz refresh rate)...

it is especially noticeable during sport, when the players are running around.

and according to another post in this thread my Plasma will support a 50Hz refresh rate... but when i attempt to put the PC to 50Hz the screen goes blank.

So i might try getting my hands on a loner HD STB - which should be running at 50Hz and see what the display does then.

Matt E

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Matt,

What DA said may be right, but I couldn't really understand if he was criticising my post or confirming it!

Since the NEC 50" resolution (1366x768 square pixels) is very similar to that of the Pioneer 50", you should search for - and PM - owners of either set using Powerstrip (or a Momitsu via DVI) for the 50Hz settings that they are using.

It is highly likely that you also need to change some of the other Powerstip settings to show 50Hz - not just simply change the frequency ... though I know next to nothing about Powerstrip custom settings.

As DA says, 50->60Hz judder is only noticeable with fast movement, scrolling tickers and rolling credits. At all other times I find it preferable to run my NEC 42" at 60Hz because there is less solarisation of poor material. Good material never has solarisation at either setting on the NEC ... however, 'in-between' material will solarise at 50Hz but not at 60Hz.

If you post your video card model and current 60Hz powerstrip settings, someone here might be able to point you in the right direction for 50Hz. The NEC will definitely synch to 50Hz when you get the powerstrip timings right ... but your video card drivers might not let you go that low.

Hope this helps,

Ian

[digitaladvisor]

Ian,

I agree with everything you have posted. It just that some who are computer oreintated go down this judder/stutter track misunderstanding the differences in reading posts.

Like you said: And I've found this a reality as well. 60Hz seems to provide a better experience in more static cases. My finding concur with yours on Plasmas.

Personally I use 75Hz on BOTH LCD 66cm and HD RPTV.

Can your plasma do 75Hz, let me know if you have tried this?

DA

[murrayt]

DA

I appreciate that you are trying to present information that will educate users about some of the principles...but

IT IS ONLY SEEABLE judder IN HIGH MOVEMENT HORIZONTAL panning and that is a HUMAN perception of lack of smoothness, no FRAMES, interlacing, MPEG drop out, stop, start is the same. 60Hz DEOS NOT MPEG corruption like what your seeing thinking that 50Hz will magically resolve it.

A 50Hz HTV broadcast WILL be PERFECTLY smooth in MORE STATIC displays and slower movement on whatver refresh you have set including 60Hz.

I think what you have put can mislead some

I imagine that what you are trying to convey is that "A 50Hz DVB broadcast WILL be PERFECTLY smooth in a STATIC picture, but as the movement of elements on the screen increases that the perception of judder will increase if the vertical refresh rate of the display is not an integer multiple of the basic field/frame rate

On a 50hz monitor fast action and movement will produce a 'strobing' effect, this is a fundamental effect of a sampled system. To have the display device refreshing at a rate different to the fundamental rate (or am integer multiple) will of course cause problems

[digitaladvisor]

HI Murray

Yea I agree with strobing. Afterall this is a refresh rate draw. Of course the lower the strobe (refresh) the more likely this strobing will come to interplay.

The confusing part is when one thinks that staggering (software / codec) poor reception, interference in MPEG streams (rejected intact 'good' frame/interlace frames/fields is solved by matching the refresh rate exactly.

I have coined this as "heartbeat" matching of the MPEG stream. (strobing is a very accurate of way of saying as well.) We agree. Of course when 60Hz comes to interplay this mismatch can be corrected in great part by the strobe redraw by the known 3:2 pull down method where 3 odd and 2 even corrects this to account to film mode (24fps).

Paragraph two of this post is what I'm really trying to say. I think we do agree maybe I was not clear enough

In proving the strobed mismatch I now own a 66cm widescreen and find overall smoothness for human eye interaction and perception is improved greatly at 75Hz.

On the Samsung HD RPTV via DVI-D INCORRECTLY reports known refresh rates to Radeon Drivers as 60Hz only but the other does not and reports 56Hz, 60Hz and 75Hz correctly to the Radeon drivers via DVI-d connection. It also lock to the 66cm its pure native resolution which is 1280 * 768. (16:10 aspect is common to most widescreen LCD displays)

Samsung HD RPTV:

When connecting via VGA or component high band, PowerStrip can force the drivers of Radeon card to behave from 50Hz right to increnments up to 75Hz on the Samsung HD RPTV. I also think but cannot confirm this obectively that some HD displays actually do 3:2 pull intervention @ 60Hz.

On another note why here with this complex subject:

What I find absolutely sublime stupidity is home theatre gurus going on about purist ideals about keeping the type of the MPEg broadcast pure.

Such is NEVER the case. When someone takes a 576p/1080i broadcast from a HD STB to a plasma screen for exmaple. It still has to DOWNSCAL\Upscale to fit the image or upscale if it odes not match the native display. Otherwise we would grow, shrink, grow sizing. Of course firmware in the display can handle this applying a range of vertical and horizontal frequerncies which is never a 'perfect' science. I have found personnaly the best overall performer for Plasmas is just to set a HD STB to 720p for all digital derived broadcasts.

The best part of a HDTV enabled computer is matching DIRECTLY to native. That way we remove potiental introduced artifacts. As well we remove upscaling/downscaling processes from the chain. I have seen dramatic effects on Plasmas in improved quality results armed with this knowledge.

Solarization also known as false contouring virtually disappears on Plasmas with the help of HTPC. This is when many internal rescaler/downcalers on many Plasmas and even other types of HD display technolgoies fall to correctly render. Solarization in many home theatre circels has put down to inferior colour processing levels on Plasmas. Yes and no - but the major cause of false contouring can be simply mistaken edge enhancements in the scalers. Early software MPEG on computer did just this same thing. It then makes you wonder what of technology is really in HD STB's and Plasmas when comparing to the advances made in computer software based MPEG decoders.

While we on this subject I've also found the dithering bug is also found in many HD STB hardware MPEG decoders.

Many put this down to falsely assuming the DTV station is not transmitting enough bandwidth. And I agree with Owen this is a major fault found in nearly all DLP RPTV's as they have bad habit of dithering the image internally. But native matching can overcome many of these issues.

Regards

DA

[AndrewWilliams]

My PCI Fusion won't sync to 100Hz very well at all for some reason - it stutters slightly every few seconds. If I set my monitor's refresh to 50Hz with Powerstrip it's perfectly smooth but of course you get the 50Hz flicker. The DXVA decoder also seems more prone to stuttering issues mainly when using BOB (the best method for watching interlaced TV by far IMO)

[digitaladvisor]

My PCI Fusion won't sync to 100Hz very well at all for some reason - it stutters slightly every few seconds.  If I set my monitor's refresh to 50Hz with Powerstrip it's perfectly smooth but of course you get the 50Hz flicker.  The DXVA decoder also seems more prone to stuttering issues mainly when using BOB (the best method for watching interlaced TV by far IMO)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If your monitor is a computer based monitor and if its a LCD based you reaaly do not need such high refresh rate. 75Hz would be happier middle ground.

If your monitor is a CRT then 75Hz is acceptable.

BOB will not work correctly on the following and maybe not needed:

576p Seven, SBS 576p, Channel Two if 576p.

That's three stations.

As well you do not need BOB for a broadcasted movie or movie derived DVD! AS the broadcasted MPEG that FILM derived behaves just like DVD hired movie. Surprise here is that true interlaced capture needs bob (video interlace capture) but film derived capture including video camera equivalent @ 576i / 576p or even 1080i does not require a kind of inter field anticipation (BOB). The codec tends to work a bit harder in BOB and this may account for slight drag.

Try turning off DXVA and see how you go on 100Hz - it may well an inaccurate clock for vertical on your video card doing a variable deviation at 100Hz. Not all video cards maintain at an accurate vertical consistency even though your setting it at 100Hz.

Bob verses Weave:

I've tested using weave on heaps of movies on DTV stations and the results are better. However it is interesting that ads between the movie do tend to blind in high motion proving interlace broadcasts of digital MPEG is all in the capture device (film/video camera progressive capture) not in the TYPE of MPEG being broadcast.

All source materials are NOT made equal.

DA