US$1,000,000 challenge to high end cable manufacturer

[Andy_G]

  terry j said:

I mean I could do it if I had a simple goal like 'flat', .

flat is a theoretical starting point

[Soultone]

  terry j said:

arggh. I think because you posted in my quote your answers didn't turn up here.

Anyway thank you so much for answering directly, I think if we continue in that vein we should have less, misunderstandings?

Thanks for the honesty.(and yeah, many would not have the balls to come back as you did and say what you did, well done!!)

So we are really not that far apart at the end of the day. Apart from any procedural doubts someone may have about the 'how' of dbts, we do agree that any intrinsic quality will be present no matter the testing.

That's all it is.

Phew, that was easy in the end eh? My shout when I get to melb eh? Oh, look I meant it when I said I don't believe you were lying. I don't think anyone here lies. Well I hope not anyway, what's the point?

Here it is in it entirety.

Originally Posted by terry j

you gotta bear in mind that this is only one persons opinion, I personally don't put much weight to it. If 'something changes' as a result of swapping cables, I'd be more likely to feel it has cleaned contacts etc. Of course that would not apply if done a number of times.

I guess the difference between me and the dbt crew is that I don't need a group of people to make my decisions for me and I am capable of hearing the difference myself without any bias, is this possible?

That is a very good point AiA (glad to see you're still here. good stuff) as I think it cuts to the heart of the problem. You're correct, I guess the people who have studied the psychoacoustic side of things DO claim that it is hard to remove bias. That is it in a nutshell.

I don't care about the cables, they are tools, they preform a task if they don't that is fine on to the next one, why have emotions connected to a cable, it can't love you back. The cable either works in the system or it does not.

Whether you feel you can simply flick a mental switch and willingly turn off a thought, preconception or whatever is beside the point, the 'hardcore' will feel you cannot.

Not 100% no you are right, but as mentioned above why have an emotion attached to cable? It is the music as you mentioned before that is the emotional part of the equation not the speakers, not the cdp, not the amp. I have felt the love of a turntable and that is real that is 100% truth.

So a simple solution to remove the bias is to simply not be consciously aware of which component you are hearing.

Again agreed, this is also where I think that dbt is valid and option that can be used IF used correctly.

Again, a direct question if you please, do you accept or not accept that any intrinsic sound will be present in a component even if you do not know you are hearing it? If not, why not.

Yes I accept, if I understand your question correctly. Every component has it's own sound. If I have not understood then please let me know. Hang on are you asking me if the air in my listening room sounds the same?

We may get somewhere if we go step by step.

Maybe, I have my doubts though.

You most certainly do not need the validation of anyone else to enjoy whichever component you choose, go for it. All the science and studies to date say is the bias does colour our perceptions.

It's a simple premise.

It is a simple premise. Again I agree with you but there are always exceptions to every rule and nothing is set in stone. But you also can not insinuate that someone is lying or did not hear what they heard just because they said they heard it.

Guru, I'll pick you up and we'll head on up to Andys eh? We can have heaps of fun (hey, I'm a laugh a minute I assure you) and I'd love to have a listen to your setup.

we can even get fish and chips:)

hmmm, not exactly calming things down there Dr X!! I know it was joking about but, (bit like the cold war heh) when it's two minutes to midnight and ol reagan says 'we're gonna bomb russia'....

[Andy_G]

  Drizt said:

to take on a difficult topic and try and work though it than to sit back and poke holes in things without having any intention of trying to help remedy the problem.

I am trying to remedy the holes.

[Drizt]

  Andy_G said:

A statement such as , "our test was able to reliably discern a difference between, say, CD and 324 bit mp3 by ogg, but was not able to discern a difference between cable A and cable B", would start to put things into a sensible perspective, rather than sitting in limbo.

Agreed mate. As everyone has all along. That makes total sense if you are trying to mount a case for a NULL result (on its own) meaning something. What it does introduce is two seperate blinds test. And as we know just getting one blind test organised and brought to fruition is hard enough as it is. But as Dr X has said time and time again, with enough NULL results over time it becomes more likely statistically that the NULL result is representative of reality. His pigs flying analogy although on the extreme end of the spectrum is very representative of this argument.

[56oval]

  Drizt said:

We were did some sighted testing of 'upsampling' and came to the conclusion that we thought we could hear a difference but after longer listening didn't really have a preference for anyone one mode of upsampling (or bypass mode) over another.

Hello drizt

A couple of us did do a blind test between 10K of upsampling CDP and a NOS 16 bit dac ,we used the digital out of the CDP to feed the dac .After playing a number of songs then after awhile narrowing it down to 1 song then one part of that song all we found was the upsampling cdp had an exstended top end .But just playing disk after disc very hard to pick the diff .

Cheers

[Drizt]

  Andy_G said:

I am trying to remedy the holes.

Granted you have put forth suggestions, but we are yet to see any commitment to put any of your suggestions into use. We are still back to the fact that its easy to poke holes in things rather than to actively work towards a solution without poking fun at people along the way.

[Andy_G]

  Drizt said:

Sorry mate your wrong, please go back and re-read the thread.

We did some sighted testing of 'upsampling' and came to the conclusion that we thought we could hear a difference but after longer listening didn't really have a preference for anyone one mode of upsampling (or bypass mode) over another.

sorry if I misunderstood, its been a few days since I read it, and I bin workin' real hard,..... brain stuff , and I'm struggling.

if I showed you what I was trying to do, you would understand why ;-)

[Drizt]

  56oval said:

Hello drizt

A couple of us did do a blind test between 10K of upsampling CDP and a NOS 16 bit dac ,we used the digital out of the CDP to feed the dac .After playing a number of songs then after awhile narrowing it down to 1 song then one part of that song all we found was the upsampling cdp had an exstended top end .But just playing disk after disc very hard to pick the diff .

Cheers

Great stuff. So the differences were slight. But at least a difference was detected.

Now please don't think im trying to dis the results.... Can I ask what the methodology was and how you level matched the comparisons? Im eager to learn more on your methods.

[Drizt]

  Andy_G said:

sorry if I misunderstood, its been a few days since I read it, and I bin workin' real hard,..... brain stuff , and I'm struggling.

if I showed you what I was trying to do, you would understand why ;-)

No problems mate... No thanks mate. Ive done my 5 years of uni... enough of that stuff for me. Every day is a new challenge and new problem to fix in software engineering. Plenty of mental hoops to jump through to keep me occupied... a holiday is definately need though... *poor me, i know*

[Super Mustud]

  b.d said:

The conclusion to me seems inescapable: that sighted reviews on cables are worthless.

Well, that is one conclusion. I have another. Which in my experience is soundly based (get the pun, huh?).

With regard to cables, it is indisputable that some people have reported differences in the sound outcome with different cables. This leads logically to the conclusion that those who espouse BTs do so from an as yet unknown link between an inability to hear these reported differences and an irresistable drive to conduct tests in the dark (in the figurative sense).

This follows from the fact that NOT ONE person in favour of BTs did not PRIOR to doing any BT test profess the impossibility of cables causing sound differences.

QED I think!! Most probably some genetic thing like people with red hair having fiery tempers. Stands to reason, really.

[Andy_G]

  Drizt said:

Granted you have put forth suggestions, but we are yet to see any commitment to put any of your suggestions into use. .

you work, don't you, and have other more important things to do.......

I'm way more interested in listening to music, and doing my day job, and building speakers, that to be at your beck and call !

You are the one wanting these test to be accepted.. maybe you should start listening to the issues, and start thinking of solutions.

Edited October 16, 2008 by Andy_G

[56oval]

  Drizt said:

Great stuff. So the differences were slight. But at least a difference was detected.

Now please don't think im trying to dis the results.... Can I ask what the methodology was and how you level matched the comparisons? Im eager to learn more on your methods.

The method , 4 of us sitting on our arse and one person switching between dac & CDP ,as far as level goes by ear they were pretty much the same the cdp had a very similar output to the dac into a chip based pre then mono blocks and speakers 2 ways around 98db I think.

Actually we didn't go there to conduct a blind test its just we had a dac & CDP sitting there so all of us were pretty relaxed .

Cheers

[Drizt]

  Andy_G said:

you work, don't you, and have other more important things to do.......

I'm way more interested in listening to music, and doing my day job, and building speaker, that to be at your beck and call !

Thats taking a suggestion to an extreme isnt it? Surely you could find some time on a weekend, weeknight to attend a gtg? Can you agree its easy to poke holes in things, and much harder to actually implement in real life?

[Drizt]

  56oval said:

The method , 4 of us sitting on our arse and one person switching between dac & CDP ,as far as level goes by ear they were pretty much the same the cdp had a very similar output to the dac into a chip based pre then mono blocks and speakers 2 ways around 98db I think.

Actually we didn't go there to conduct a blind test its just we had a dac & CDP sitting there so all of us were pretty relaxed .

Cheers

Thanks for the reply mate. It just helps to have some context when taking in the information given.

Cheers.

[Drizt]

  Andy_G said:

You are the one wanting these test to be accepted.. maybe you should start listening to the issues, and start thinking of solutions.

I don't even care if the tests are accepted or not. Im just hoping people can be a little more open minded about said issues, and try them for themselves. I have many solutions that could help. They are much more rigorous, but a smart person can realise that baby steps come before giant strides.

If you tried to be more positive with your suggestions, and possibly attended an event, or even helped out in some way that would be appreciated.

Negativity with no intend to help or put your own time of effort in helps no one.

[Andy_G]

  Drizt said:

a holiday is definately need though...

I just took 2 weeks, sure could use another 2 !!!

[ehtcom]

Way back in the early days of making tube amps I WAS a cable skeptic.

Nearly every system I had owned or listened to had multi driver speakers, amps full of SS components & fairly basic, but still high end for me, sources. Marantz CD63se & Thorens TD166. My cables were either DIY or sub $10.00 from Dick Smith, Jaycar etc, because they all sound the same right?

Wrong.

I was commissioned to built a simple Triode connected KT66 single ended amplifier. I do mean simple, The circuit is below, as you can see, very simple with only 5 components in the signal path. The amplifier went in to a very basic system with I think a Marantz CD6000 CDP and a pair of Coral beta 10's in boxes. This was my first introduction to quality single driver sound and what it is capable of ( I caught the bug).

First opinions were that this is very, very bright. The new owner suggested changing the silver interconnects to some copper, "that should tone it down a bit" he said (like it's gunna make a difference, me thinks with a smile:rolleyes:). Well, bugger me it did:eek:, still a bit bright but definitely better, or duller:D. Then he tries a pair of heavy duty IC's (re lotsa copper) and bingo. Nice tone, not too bright:o.

So, since that day i have been a believer, whilst some cables sound the same, some definitely do sound different and I do believe that those cables on a revealing system I would be able to pick the difference.

I have also measured cables on my test equipment and got some very surprising results. Differences within the audio spectrum! (20hz to 20khz). One pair I own are down over 2db at 20khz, very good for a bright system?. I have inspected the cable an there is no intentional lo-pass filtering on it. It has normal looking copper wire, nothing spacial about the RCA plugs.

As I have said time and time again though, i just don't agree with the ridiculous claims that seem to only be associated with the ridiculously expensive cables.

Cheers, Earle.

[ATTACH]4482[/ATTACH]

[Drizt]

  Andy_G said:

I just took 2 weeks, sure could use another 2 !!!

Lucky bastard. The last holiday I went on i was very ill for most of it, happened to be a very special occasion too

[Andy_G]

  Drizt said:

Thats taking a suggestion to an extreme isnt it? Surely you could find some time on a weekend, weeknight to attend a gtg? Can you agree its easy to poke holes in things, and much harder to actually implement in real life?

this weekend..

1. Friday evening 7 hours sound work at the Lass

2. upgrade a subwoofer for a friend.

3. Saturday another 7 hour sound work

4. a stack of assignements about 4" high

5. holes have to be poked before they can fixed. Fixing is very often difficult... way better than just ignoring the holes !!!

[A9X]

  ehtcom said:

I have also measured cables on my test equipment and got some very surprising results. Differences within the audio spectrum! (20hz to 20khz). One pair I own are down over 2db at 20khz, very good for a bright system?.

That is the point Earle. Any differences are down to known, measurable phenomena ie LCR and shielding.

[Super Mustud]

  Drizt said:

No... NO ONE is immune to bias. Its simply not possible. Sighted testing is simply floored. There is no way around human bias other than to remove the knowledge of what is being tested.

Yes, I think I can agree with that. However I have an increasing suspicion that there is a big risk of introducing some other skew in the test result with BT that is just as misleading as the bias. I think one way to test the validity of BT results would be to repeat the test a few days later and see how correlated the results are. A bit tedious of course.

[Drizt]

  Andy_G said:

5. holes have to be poked before they can fixed. Fixing is very often difficult... way better than just ignoring the holes !!!

Agreed. But if you don't take any actions then poking holes is of no use, nothing gets solved. Theres toooooo many people willing to take cheap pot shots and not enough people willing to put in the hard yards. Its almost like people are afraid to do something, so they fight tooth and nail not to do it. Even worse they fight tooth and nail to tear down the people who do put in the time and effort.

[Nude]

  Dr X said:

That's is funny! Also thanks for giving me a mention in there!

Squaaaaawk...Squaaaaaawk...Give me that damn piece of bread Nude or I'll peck you eyes out and you'll be DBTing for life

Anything but that

[Andy_G]

  Drizt said:

Every day is a new challenge and new problem to fix in software engineering.

think of a mix of research PhD in Civil Engineering mixed with software programming in Fortran.

you wshould then understand why I occasionally get a bit grumpy !!!

[Drizt]

  mustud52 said:

Yes, I think I can agree with that. However I have an increasing suspicion that there is a big risk of introducing some other skew in the test result with BT that is just as misleading as the bias. I think one way to test the validity of BT results would be to repeat the test a few days later and see how correlated the results are. A bit tedious of course.

Agreed in part. More testing results in more useful data that we are able to draw correlations from. One NULL test by itself is of very little use to others (other than the people doing the tests or the person who owns the system). But an increasingly large number of NULL results starts to become more meaningful and trend analysis can be used to come to some more useful conclusions.

I don't think (personal opinion) that blind testing can be anywhere near as misleading as personal inherent bias. I respect your opinion on the contrary though.