9 minutes ago, playdough said:

Just an idea, get the ruler off the desktop you are sitting at and slap it on the 300ms line on the DVDhack graph.

 

 

 

53 minutes ago, playdough said:

I am hoping that those looking at this thread can actually read a waterfall graph, er properly sort of.

 

Kinda, maybe...?

Waterfall graphs are quite hard to read.

 

In the above chart I have marked 300ms at 20khz on both charts in red .... but this is hard to read, as it doesn't show clearly how much of dvds chart is out past 300ms... not heaps, but some.

I've also marked the noise floor of your measurement (room) ~27dB in yellow ... and put that same line (27dB) on dvds chart.

 

What I was interested in... with all of this.... was asking you which bit of his chart you thought you would even out above 1khz when you say reverb could be 'flattened'.... like the purple part, blue?... aqua?  or?

 

9 minutes ago, playdough said:

I am hoping that those looking at this thread can actually read a waterfall graph, er properly sort of.

Data is easy to misinterpret at the best of times (presented apples to apples, etc. etc.)

 

 

2 hours ago, DVDHack said:

quite the challenge to construct and then change

 No, really easy (a day or 3 pending the severity of error)  you could make problems in prognosis and dare I say, make it a necessity to pull down the work for tuning. 

1 hour ago, playdough said:

Please expand your prognosis of the actual PITA you experience here ?

Carpet and curtains suck the life out of the music, they're like putting up massive absorption panels that only absorb over 2-3KHz and you can't thicken the 'panels' or add an air gap to make them broadband.  It's really hard to then add proper absorption for broadband treatment, you've always got that high end sink.

 

My big room, casual listening, sounds much better, it has some pull down blinds that are backed which are usually open and a tiled floor.  When I add absorption it produces a reasonably even response and the  room has 'air'.  
 

Id love 5o try my TAD speakers in this room but they're too damn heavy to move.

21 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

above 1khz when you say reverb could be 'flattened'.

It's fairly obvious what has happened, smooth reverb response, flattened out broad band absorb. Get the ruler out again.

\To be fair at that point without the membranes in place, the room had like 9m2 of 200mm thick wall treatments and sounded "dry and clinical" fragile lacking body, although a pin accurate soundstage, of a smaller perceived length and breadth. 

It's come back (liveliness) after these open absorb wall boxes were covered with the MLV casements.  

Now the bass is dry and clinical although that's how I like it, without the 30Hz bloat.wall flex.

 

Nice double graph, I wish I could do that. 

Edited August 28, 20232 yr by playdough

1 minute ago, DVDHack said:

they're too damn heavy to move

What about a tractor ?

17 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

Data is easy to misinterpret at the best of times (presented apples to apples, etc. etc.)

 

Yes, every poster take note. 😉

20 minutes ago, DVDHack said:

add proper absorption for broadband treatment, you've always got that high end sink.

Does the graph ? look like this is it your hearing telling you this ? 

Subjectively pls

 

Note, why not open ceiling traps like mine 40mm, then add 10mm slats at tuned model specs after appreciation and measurement eval. 

Edited August 28, 20232 yr by playdough

16 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

it doesn't show clearly how much of dvds chart is out past 300ms...

Don't waste too much time on my chart, all I did was stand some treatment in two corners. some on the side wall and behind the TV.  It was just a starting point.  I've since properly fixed the treatment behind the TV and the at the first reflection point.  I've also added the cloud and I will do the corners properly next.  What I did got rid of all the ringing in the room and I did the measurement just to see what I'm working with at the start.  The corners will have treatment on the diagonal and filled behind, not just leaned against the wall and the cloud will have made a lot of difference, just with first reflection off the ceiling.  

 

I'll do another measurement when that's all done.  Music in here sounds very good though and to me that's the point.

 

See picture of treatment so far...  As you can see I've taken down some of the corners and I'm working out framing for those in the right hand corner to begin with, the cloud shown wasn't there when I did the last measurement.

 

12 minutes ago, playdough said:

What about a tractor ?

That's how I moved them in...  I'm not going to use the tractor now they're unpacked.

 

 

13 minutes ago, DVDHack said:

Don't waste too much time on my chart, all I did was stand some treatment in two corners.

I was just wondering about the differences between that chart and Glens and which specific part of the chart he was eyeballing to change and how.... so it doesn't matter much what it was.

19 minutes ago, DVDHack said:

See picture

Ah, so you mean 38% of the length from the back wall then....?

Edited August 28, 20232 yr by davewantsmoore

12 minutes ago, DVDHack said:

 

Love it, Champion at work. 🙌

3 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

Ah, so you mean 38% of the length from the back wall then....?

No, from the front wall.  The lounge has been pushed out the way to manoeuvre the ladder around to hang the cloud treatment.

Here's how it looks now, you can also see the narrow panel on the right, the same is on the left.

 

Ive taken some of the panels out to do some framing work on them and get them setup properly.  I got all the treatment with some gear I bought, so I'm reusing it as best I can.

 

22 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

 

 

 

Yea, Ok, we can do this

LF <120Hz

Both normalised 🙂waterfall graphs show prodigious wide band response SPL for a start, very widely  dynamic FR powerhouse speakers. gee, they are no bookie shelf 2 way.

 

Can you tell which one is powered by the 26.66 w 16.666vDC beast chip amp ? I think no, and don't guess, you may be incorrect.

 

With the Graph on the left not showing  - 8dB from <30Hz to 20

Both show  suckout at 80Hz ish, the left doing better here.

 

I think this suckout is a "7m room size on one dimension  issue" resonant length. Common,, I see it al the time, in measurements. Usually accompanied by a resonant peak, an octave up the range.

 

The graph on the right shows a very narrow Q peak around 100Hz, if you move the mic 10cm, left or right this goes away, can be almost ignored. It's actually something to do with the JBL horn, when the graph has no LF cab in play, dunno, maybe someone does.

 

Both show a similar amount of +60ms response <100Hz, with the left graph showing very slightly better, Dave? You seeing this ?

 

HF content of sweep SPL actual fundamental range of both the graphs are reasonable for test, again high SPL, with the RHS Graph a bit dippy, like it;s owner. Actually sounds ok says the Owner, pick the dips in real time and win a cigar !!

 

Harmonic resonance on the RHS HF part of the Graph, is even and shows little if any "problems" other than being very short on response times 220ms average to 220Hz, or lower if you discount another tiny high Q peak, seen at 220Hz.

In reality it's a bit too much IMHO, you either like it or would hate it.

 

The graph on the left shows a waving harmonic decay  response, specifically a wide Q higher harmonic decay time centered at 2Khz, followed by a wide Q lesser decay time around 10Khz, just an opinion and a guess there is not much treatment in there at all ? The room may do well with some anti waving of the decay response, would not be difficult. 

 

Both rooms would be vastly different to be in, with probably the RHS tipping the scale because of minimal reverb impost at the listening position and the +dB from 30Hz down (pending media content listened to) may also help. The bass or for that matter in both areas would be grouse.  

 

Sound feasible ? 

 

 

 

Edited August 29, 20232 yr by playdough
read befor posting, spelling

contex

Said, Dippy JBL horn and bass cab, with it's shirt pulled up, for a feather dust the plaster dust.

 

I don't listen to a lot of music with very low frequency content.  Kick drum and bass with fundamentals at 50 and 60 Hz but I'm not big on organ music down to 8Hz.  I doubt there's much in my music that gets down to 30Hz in my collection, certainly not enough to matter.

 

With treatment I'm not considering anything below 40Hz.

2 minutes ago, DVDHack said:

considering anything below 40Hz

Yea, in a medium room with the music I get into at times, it becomes a problem. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjM8d0Csuk4&t=4s

Have a listen, there is content abound, shakes the couch.

On 27/08/2023 at 3:19 PM, davewantsmoore said:

it isn't the plaster which flexes at very low frequency, its the entire wall.    Hard to say for sure if this is an acceptable thing

I accepted the challenge Dave !!

24 minutes ago, playdough said:

Yea, in a medium room with the music I get into at times, it becomes a problem. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjM8d0Csuk4&t=4s

Have a listen, there is content abound, shakes the couch.

I downloaded the album, it sounds fine in the big room, I'll take it into the other room maybe tonight, I'll have to fire up the sub in there, I rarely do that since REL are a pain in the arse.

 

The closest I listen to this sort of content is Yello.  I have a different bass system for home theatre.

12 minutes ago, DVDHack said:

Yello.

Indeed great listening.

 

I love a grand orchestra, more than a lot of things and is a good speaker test, the huge crescendos, massive dynamic SPL swings, instrument separation on the stage, If you can mentally visualise the mic layout at the recording stage in a reproduction of a massive orchestra (no clipping now), IMHO you have to be getting somewhere. 

All inside a max of 1mm Linear excursion (linear distortion is a long gone sufferance here.), of any one driver in the speaker set.. 

 

There is an opinion that Cinema and Music "listening environments AND Speaker sets are quite different" 

 

I personally fail to hear a difference except the later may hack off the lower octaves in some music and reside in a not great acoustic environment, 

 

am I alone on this ?

 

Edited August 28, 20232 yr by playdough

56 minutes ago, playdough said:

With the Graph on the left not showing  - 8dB from <30Hz to 20

That's just an EQ/calibration problem though, of course.

If that were fixed, or normalised charts were used... then we may not see it.

 

56 minutes ago, playdough said:

The graph on the right shows a very narrow Q peak around 100Hz, if you move the mic 10cm, left or right this goes away, can be almost ignored. It's actually something to do with the JBL horn, when the graph has no LF cab in play, dunno, maybe someone does.

The peak extends out to 600ms at almost constant amplitude.

Unusual.

 

1 hour ago, playdough said:

Both show a similar amount of +60ms response <100Hz, with the left graph showing very slightly better

Slightly.. sort of.  They booth approximate 40-45dB down at very low frequencies.

 

1 hour ago, playdough said:

wide Q higher harmonic decay time centered at 2Khz

OK, so you'd knock the decay time down at bit an octave or so either side of 2khz.

 

 

52 minutes ago, DVDHack said:

I don't listen to a lot of music with very low frequency content.  Kick drum and bass with fundamentals at 50 and 60 Hz but I'm not big on organ music down to 8Hz.  I doubt there's much in my music that gets down to 30Hz in my collection, certainly not enough to matter.

A lot of music is mixed with the bass filtered out of many samples/tracks (there's a lot which isn't too, of course)

 

... but I think many people misunderstand how the spectral content of sound works.   It isn't just the "fundamental tones" of things to consider.... it's the bandwidth.

 

Shorter sounds have wider bandwidth.

This means a very short sound has a lot of high frequencies, and a lot of low(er) frequencies.    If you draw out a hypothetical waveform (just any old wiggly line) which then suddenly stops, and imagine all the frequencies (sine waves) which would need to be combined to reach this waveform.   You need low frequencies to make it stop suddenly.

 

In the most extreme case.  The "dirac pulse", just a single up / down / stop, contains every frequency.

 

So... if it is literally filtered out of your music before it gets to you, then it isn't important to reproduce it.... but otherwise, bass can be very important for things you might not think of a "bass".

17 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

OK, so you'd knock the decay time down at bit an octave or so either side of 2khz.

Nah, go with the wideband 2Khz and up open material covered 40mm, hard on ceiling, say 900 x 1800mm x 8 in the dance hall sized space., spread out over the whole celling, actual cover a fifth of the ceiling overall ?

Would be a start, and if the same colour as the cieling, ok, cosmetically

Like suggested, you can add slats to the faces of the panels AND model the gaps/thickness, for whatever frequency  desired over 2K. Maybe put slatted panels up at only the listening position, tuned in for 9Khz and up to be sent back into the space. 

This of coarse would be pending evaluation/measurement

Edited August 28, 20232 yr by playdough

29 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

In the most extreme case.  The "dirac pulse", just a single up / down / stop, contains every frequency.

I understand the importance of the bass. I just don’t believe there is enough of that noticeable in my music and listening level to have it sufficiently affect my enjoyment when it’s affected by room issues. Cost benefit issue

23 minutes ago, DVDHack said:

I just don’t believe there is enough of that noticeable in my music

But doesn't all music have lots of "starty-stoppy" type sounds.... and isn't this often like the most important part (?!)

 

23 minutes ago, DVDHack said:

 Cost benefit issue

Always a fair consideration.

Edited August 28, 20232 yr by davewantsmoore