Tweaky Posted January 24, 2022 Posted January 24, 2022 1 minute ago, betty boop said: wouldnt waste time with up firing. but id challenge why in ceiling or on ceiling is not an option. if i can pull off in ceilings in my setup i reckon just about anyone can there are wonderfull "on ceiling speakers too.. eg even the SVS prime that can go on wall or on ceiling and quite discrete krix locally make the same ... Maybe the OP is in a rental, or at least it might not own the place so can't install in- ceiling speakers?
betty boop Posted January 24, 2022 Posted January 24, 2022 8 minutes ago, Tweaky said: Maybe the OP is in a rental, or at least it might not own the place so can't install in- ceiling speakers? thats why on ceiling was invented eg the svs and krix options i quoted
Jeff Hepner Posted January 24, 2022 Author Posted January 24, 2022 6 hours ago, betty boop said: wouldnt waste time with up firing. but id challenge why in ceiling or on ceiling is not an option. if i can pull off in ceilings in my setup i reckon just about anyone can there are wonderfull "on ceiling speakers too.. eg even the SVS prime that can go on wall or on ceiling and quite discrete krix locally make the same ... I live in an apartment, the modifications I can make are limited. So, wall-mounted it is. I am completely open to getting BETTER wall-mounted speakers after I give my existing satellites a try. I don't have high hopes (pun intended?) for them but it's worth starting with what I have before $pending more. I've attached a revised floor plan based on all of the feedback I've received so far. It depicts my current decisions and remaining questions. GREEN Sorry green, you lose. BLUE Looks like this is the way to go for the side surrounds. Option A wins for the right surround position. Sorry Option B, you lose. BLACK The rear heights have been nixed in the spot that I originally proposed for them because 90-degrees to the side of the sofa isn't as good as 110-degress slightly behind it. That leaves only the front heights in this BLACK dot category. The front heights will be wall-mounted on the front wall near the ceiling (not up-firing, not in or on ceiling due to apartment living restrictions) and will be angled directly at the listeners. *** I would like additional guidance on how far from my 12-foot ceiling to place the heights. The only mention so far is a minimum of 3-feet above the floor speakers, so I'd like a few more comments in that area if possible. *** I would like guidance to determine if the front wall is a better choice than moving the front heights somewhere along the side walls. Thoughts? PURPLE This has become the new discussion about the rear heights. Note that the left height is as far back from the sofa as I can get it without going around the corner where the pub table is located. Therefore, it is aligned directly above the left side surround and will be wall-mounted near the ceiling and angled directly at the listeners. The right rear height will be directly across from the left height and will also be wall-mounted near the ceiling and angled directly at the listeners. *** I would like additional guidance on how far from my 12-foot ceiling to place the heights. The only mention so far is a minimum of 3-feet above the floor speakers, so I'd like a few more comments in that area if possible. A note about this exploration so far: You folks are AWESOME. Everyone has been helpful, polite, interactive, and seemingly interested in helping me get to the best possible configuration that falls within my constraints and preferences. Thanks for all of your thoughts and comments. Keep them coming!
Jeff Hepner Posted January 24, 2022 Author Posted January 24, 2022 Just for extra giggles, and to save @Tweaky from having to bust a brain lobe on the math, I found an online calculator to help with determining if the front heights being mounted all the way up at the top of the wall near the ceiling would make the sound path exceed the 15-foot maximum that DIRAC / my AVR can handle. a = the distance from the front height speaker down to ear level. I used an estimated seated height of 3-feet and subtracted that from the floor-to-ceiling height of 12-feet to equal 9-feet and entered that. c = the sound path from the front height mounted on the front wall all the way up near 12-foot ceiling. I entered that. b = the calculated maximum distance from the front wall to the listening position at ear height that would generate the maximum 15-foot sound path (c). This result was calculated when I filled in the values for (a) and (c). So, 12-feet is close to, but just a bit more than, my actual seating position. I estimate that to be 10-11 feet, so I think I'm good even with this extreme placement position. If, however, it is strongly recommended that I move the front heights to the side walls (mid-way for example) then I'm quite sure that I will have a sound path (c) that is easily less than the 15-foot max that DIRAC / my AVR can handle. Ouch. Math hurts.
Jeff Hepner Posted January 24, 2022 Author Posted January 24, 2022 8 minutes ago, Jeff Hepner said: Ouch. Math hurts. And before anyone asks (hahaha - not likely) the listening angle at the maximum front height and distance from the front wall is 36.87 degrees. That is greater than the 30-degree minimum according to the Dolby Atomos guide. THAT means that there is flexibility to bring them down by as much as 2 feet from the ceiling. Using my actual seating distance from the front wall (10 feet instead of the 12-foot max) creates even more buffer by increasing the listening angle. All that to say that regardless of where I put the front heights, I'll be within the guidelines for my AVR / DIRAC / Atmos. Ok, I'll stop now. WAY too much nonsense here. (runs away screaming and yelling "WHERE'S MY BOURBON?!?")
Tweaky Posted January 24, 2022 Posted January 24, 2022 54 minutes ago, Jeff Hepner said: And before anyone asks (hahaha - not likely) the listening angle at the maximum front height and distance from the front wall is 36.87 degrees. That is greater than the 30-degree minimum according to the Dolby Atomos guide. THAT means that there is flexibility to bring them down by as much as 2 feet from the ceiling. Using my actual seating distance from the front wall (10 feet instead of the 12-foot max) creates even more buffer by increasing the listening angle. All that to say that regardless of where I put the front heights, I'll be within the guidelines for my AVR / DIRAC / Atmos. Ok, I'll stop now. WAY too much nonsense here. (runs away screaming and yelling "WHERE'S MY BOURBON?!?") I'm having a "Where's my Vodka ? " day today, which isn't good as it's only 7.50am. Had a disastrous day yesterday, I had gone to the hardware store to get the need parts to make this new entertainment/TV unit, that part went OK. In the van on the way to the hardware store, the HiFi shop asked if I was going to be home, as they wanted to deliver the equipment a day early.....I said yes DOH! I'm building this unit out of metal framing, and then going to clad it with stained and waxed plywood. Once I got the metal parts home I spent 45min taking the stickers off them, then started to finger tight the bolts just to make it easier to tighten them fully later. Of course that all went down the gurgler when I found I didn't have a correct size socket wrench to do that, so now I have to go back to the hardware store and get one....I have to do it today as it's a public holiday tomorrow. Meanwhile I have boxes of equipment everywhere.....what a shambles.
Jeff Hepner Posted January 24, 2022 Author Posted January 24, 2022 44 minutes ago, Tweaky said: I'm having a "Where's my Vodka ? " day today, which isn't good as it's only 7.50am. Had a disastrous day yesterday, I had gone to the hardware store to get the need parts to make this new entertainment/TV unit, that part went OK. In the van on the way to the hardware store, the HiFi shop asked if I was going to be home, as they wanted to deliver the equipment a day early.....I said yes DOH! I'm building this unit out of metal framing, and then going to clad it with stained and waxed plywood. Once I got the metal parts home I spent 45min taking the stickers off them, then started to finger tight the bolts just to make it easier to tighten them fully later. Of course that all went down the gurgler when I found I didn't have a correct size socket wrench to do that, so now I have to go back to the hardware store and get one....I have to do it today as it's a public holiday tomorrow. Meanwhile I have boxes of equipment everywhere.....what a shambles. Wow! I was planning to ask how your day went, but you beat me to the punch with this update. Just so you know, Vodka at 7:50am is completely acceptable if you put it in orange juice to go with your breakfast. Jus' sayin' I certainly hope your project ends up in a good place. I hate it when I plan everything out just to have it get train-wrecked by something that can't be helped anyway.
Jeff Hepner Posted January 24, 2022 Author Posted January 24, 2022 Just in case anyone is interested in my starting layout in real life...
Tweaky Posted January 24, 2022 Posted January 24, 2022 30 minutes ago, Jeff Hepner said: Wow! I was planning to ask how your day went, but you beat me to the punch with this update. Just so you know, Vodka at 7:50am is completely acceptable if you put it in orange juice to go with your breakfast. Jus' sayin' I certainly hope your project ends up in a good place. I hate it when I plan everything out just to have it get train-wrecked by something that can't be helped anyway. Oh I know about the morning "Orange Juice", mine often turns out to be a Harvey Wallbanger [Vodka, Orange Juice and Yellow Galliano ..Yum ] Morning coffee can end up being a Cafe Martini instead.......doesn't really matter with me, I'm on pretty high dose pain killers anyway, I barely notice the effect of alcohol at all these days, as I have to also take a daily dose of Dexmathsone tablets, which is a steroid that can you have you climbing the walls in agitation, so any alcohol just takes the edge of those thankfully, making me able to function normally.
Tweaky Posted January 24, 2022 Posted January 24, 2022 34 minutes ago, Jeff Hepner said: Just in case anyone is interested in my starting layout in real life... What are those speakers ? They look like Kilpsch Heresy's
Jeff Hepner Posted January 24, 2022 Author Posted January 24, 2022 2 minutes ago, Tweaky said: What are those speakers ? They look like Kilpsch Heresy's Yep...
Jeff Hepner Posted January 24, 2022 Author Posted January 24, 2022 Originally, I was going to buy a pair of Klipsch Forte IV's to be my main L/R speakers to go with my Heresy center. I would have "demoted" my front L/R Heresy's to surrounds, and right now I would be trying to figure out where to place those. As you can probably guess, the extreme difficulty in that prospect is what lead me to choose the Klipsch RP-502s instead. I'm fairly confident that I have chosen very wisely. I have extremely mixed feelings about not getting the Forte's, because I'm so sure I would LOVE them. Eventually, I might end up "upgrading" my Heresy's if I ever feel confident enough to sell them. It's just too bad I don't have enough room to get the Forte's and keep the Heresy's.
Tweaky Posted January 28, 2022 Posted January 28, 2022 On 25/01/2022 at 10:51 AM, Jeff Hepner said: Originally, I was going to buy a pair of Klipsch Forte IV's to be my main L/R speakers to go with my Heresy center. I would have "demoted" my front L/R Heresy's to surrounds, and right now I would be trying to figure out where to place those. As you can probably guess, the extreme difficulty in that prospect is what lead me to choose the Klipsch RP-502s instead. I'm fairly confident that I have chosen very wisely. I have extremely mixed feelings about not getting the Forte's, because I'm so sure I would LOVE them. Eventually, I might end up "upgrading" my Heresy's if I ever feel confident enough to sell them. It's just too bad I don't have enough room to get the Forte's and keep the Heresy's. I went to audition some of the Klipsch HT range about a week and a half ago, and found they sounded nothing like the classic/heritage range your Heresay's are in, at least the huge floorstanders I listened to.......Extremely bass heavy and splashy treble, with a huge amount of sibilance.....like somebody had mic'd up frying egg. I don't expect the RP-502's to suffer that, as the cabinets are around one tenth of the size, but I do wonder if they will be so tonally different to your Heresay's that they won't stick out audibly from them. TBH, after listening to the HT range - which seem to me to be built to a price point first, sound quality second [ and if the RP-502's have the same sort of sound of the floorstanders I heard], if I were you I'd bite the bullet and get the Forte's, totally different league and a far better match to your Heresay's
Jeff Hepner Posted February 1, 2022 Author Posted February 1, 2022 On 28/1/2022 at 10:48 AM, Tweaky said: I went to audition some of the Klipsch HT range about a week and a half ago, and found they sounded nothing like the classic/heritage range your Heresay's are in, at least the huge floorstanders I listened to.......Extremely bass heavy and splashy treble, with a huge amount of sibilance.....like somebody had mic'd up frying egg. I don't expect the RP-502's to suffer that, as the cabinets are around one tenth of the size, but I do wonder if they will be so tonally different to your Heresay's that they won't stick out audibly from them. TBH, after listening to the HT range - which seem to me to be built to a price point first, sound quality second [ and if the RP-502's have the same sort of sound of the floorstanders I heard], if I were you I'd bite the bullet and get the Forte's, totally different league and a far better match to your Heresay's I am quite sure I would enjoy the Forte’s in the front L/R spots, but I can’t imagine any way to position the Heresy’s as side surrounds. All indications are that the RP-502s will pair well with my Heresy’s, and I haven’t heard any comments or read any reviews that said they sucked. Quite the contrary. But wall mounting makes them more attractive as side surrounds even if they aren’t a perfect sonic match. I will most certainly update this thread after I get everything set up and dialed in. I’m sure there are others that would like to know how things end up sounding. I’ve pretty much decided to mount my height speakers near the ceiling. Front Heights will be as shown in my BLACK option, and the rears will be in the PURPLE layout. If the fronts end up sounding weird I’ll consider moving them to the side walls and bringing them closer to the half way point between the TV and the Sofa, but I really don’t think I’ll need to do that. Unless someone STRONGLY recommends that I start on the side walls because they already know it will sound WAY better. Thanks for your thoughts.
betty boop Posted February 1, 2022 Posted February 1, 2022 1 hour ago, Jeff Hepner said: I am quite sure I would enjoy the Forte’s in the front L/R spots, but I can’t imagine any way to position the Heresy’s as side surrounds. dont need to and dont think be practical to use a heresy style speaker as side surrounds ... klipsch specifically do make the RP502 and other side surrounds specifically for this purpose and have heard them working well in klipsch systems... 1 hour ago, Jeff Hepner said: All indications are that the RP-502s will pair well with my Heresy’s, and I haven’t heard any comments or read any reviews that said they sucked. Quite the contrary. But wall mounting makes them more attractive as side surrounds even if they aren’t a perfect sonic match. https://www.klipsch.com.au/surround-sound-speakers sound character of klipsch is another thing, but given like the heresy, i doubt will not like the RPs
Jeff Hepner Posted February 2, 2022 Author Posted February 2, 2022 @betty boop Agreed on all counts. 1
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