Climate Change - the good news story

[Briz Vegas]

I wanted to start a new and different thread to that other climate change thread.

Recently I have visited a couple of hifi enthusiasts homes and the interesting thing was that they both had solar photovoltaic panels on their roofs.

Anyone see insight on SBS tonight. Interesting discussion about power prices going up, but the best bit was those that were starting to look outside the square. Rather than moaning about a 10% increase in power bills due to a carbon price they were showing how new technology, admittedly with upfront costs, was the longer term solution and that technology was green. The point was made that we are up for billions of investment regardless so it is better to make that smart and green.

You can watch this program on the SBS website if you missed it (if its not up now it will be shortly)

The big point was made that solar prices are coming down rapidly. One entrepreneur reported prices reducing by half in the past 2 years and he was making a business out of large buildings roof space, with plans to sell the power to the building owners at less than current retail.

Electric cars came up again as an added strain on the system, but this is only a significant factor without smart charging that uses wasted off peak power.

I think so long as these trends continue we are looking at some really interesting developments in the area of energy generation and intelligent grids and usage. After all if you can manage your use and get 20% usage savings then you are 10% better off than before the carbon price on power. In my case you should be 20% better off as I buy 100% green power.

I would like to get Renault Fluence ZE electric which will sell for $35K plus battery leasing but my milage is too low to make it more cost efficient compared to a gas car, although I may do it anyway if finances allow (I drive a 15 year old 4 cylinder car, I spent all my money on hifi).

I would be interested to know if anyone else is keen on this potential energy revolution that was hinted at on the insight program. I am particularly interested in comments about how this could be made to work in the medium term as it would seem that we need to think beyond next year and the immediate problem of increasing power bills because we aren't prepared to change anything.

I'm going to be a pain and ask for solutions rather than just the barriers to change. I think the negativity towards the carbon price is due to people not being prepared to come on the journey and look at the opportunities, but then I would think that because I find the new solutions far more interesting than the old ones.

[davidsss]

You raise an interesting point. I, too, buy green power and also have solar panels. What I'm not sure of is whether this will be taken into account when my electricity bill comes.

The other thing about the carbon tax you are pointing out by implication is that this is the tax you are encouraged to avoid. There are plenty of ways to avoid a lot of this tax: green power, solar panels, ride a bike to work etc. These are behaviours encouraged by this tax.

DS

[Chill3]

No

Fuel is exempt !

So no change re riding a bike

PS. No change re world greenhouse gas either, but what ever gets you off

  davidsss said:

You raise an interesting point. I, too, buy green power and also have solar panels. What I'm not sure of is whether this will be taken into account when my electricity bill comes.

The other thing about the carbon tax you are pointing out by implication is that this is the tax you are encouraged to avoid. There are plenty of ways to avoid a lot of this tax: green power, solar panels, ride a bike to work etc. These are behaviours encouraged by this tax.

DS

[LogicprObe]

Waste your money if it will salve your guilt.

[skippy124]

  Briz Vegas said:

I wanted to start a new and different thread to that other climate change thread.

I'm going to be a pain and ask for solutions rather than just the barriers to change.

  Chill3 said:

No

Fuel is exempt !

So no change re riding a bike

PS. No change re world greenhouse gas either, but what ever gets you off

  LogicprObe said:

Waste your money if it will salve your guilt.

Guys, If you can't respect the OP's request, then please keep your off topic comments to yourselves

[Art Vandelay]

I have investigated the following green measures:

1. Solar. Refused by 3 separate installers. problem = too many trees, too much shade.

2. Gas. Gas utility advised interconnection fee was $12000 due to distance. No go.

3. Gas Tank. Was told that there was no suitable / safe location. No go.

4. Wind. Council advised that the structure was not allowed and that noise was an issue.

5. Ride Bike. - Would take 4 hours return due to distance from the city, but I have a leased vehicle and unlimited fuel, so I use that instead. There is no rail to this area either.

All I can do is - Instal wood furnace and burn timber - creating more CO2.

It would seem that for me and many others there is no real way to help emission reductions.

Governments are not working together to make things happen. Why not subsidise the gas connection? Why not allow investment into a solar farm to generate a feed in tarrif ?

Of course my power bill is now $$$$$ per year due to the price rise to subsidise pvsolar users @ 60c / kWhr.

If there are options available to me that someone (anyone) can offer, I'm all ears.

Edited August 2, 2011 by Art Vandelay

[skippy124]

  Art Vandelay said:

Of course my power bill is now $$$$$ per year due to the price rise to subsidise pvsolar users @ 60c / kWhr.

.

Where do you get your information from re the effect of the cost of the feed in tarif (FIT) scheme on electricity costs in NSW.....

[ATTACH=CONFIG]34789[/ATTACH]

[Art Vandelay]

The price rise is obviously due to a combination of infrastructure upgrades plus green subsidies already in place. My power bill has risen since 2005 from $1500 per year to $3000 per year and that's with efficient lighting. The house temp is 18 degrees so I'm not trying to heat the planet either. The costs are only going up from here.

[davidsss]

Art, there are a few things you can still do. I would first look at your power bill. How much power are you using and where is it going. $3,000pa does seem excessive. Believe me, changing from 100watt light globes to 16watt compact flouros will make no dent on a bill that size. Look for heating and cooling as the main culprits. Using less power would save money. You can also buy green power, one asumes since it is green that it would not incur a carbon tax.

I'm amazed that there is nowhere on your roof for solar but it is possible. Can't think what else to suggest.

DS

[LogicprObe]

  skippy124 said:

Guys, If you can't respect the OP's request, then please keep your off topic comments to yourselves

It's not off topic.

Individual efforts are only token feelgood things. Real change could be achieved if the government actually built new power stations to replace coal fired installations.

But they are not doing that.

Governments need to look at their own building codes.

I can't believe they are still passing house designs with no eaves and no insulation.

[LogicprObe]

  davidsss said:

Art, there are a few things you can still do. I would first look at your power bill. How much power are you using and where is it going. $3,000pa does seem excessive. Believe me, changing from 100watt light globes to 16watt compact flouros will make no dent on a bill that size. Look for heating and cooling as the main culprits. Using less power would save money. You can also buy green power, one asumes since it is green that it would not incur a carbon tax.

I'm amazed that there is nowhere on your roof for solar but it is possible. Can't think what else to suggest.

DS

Solar is impossible at my place too.

I live on the south side of a hill and grew a rainforest in my yard.

The neighbours are always at me to cut down my trees.............that block their new solar arrays that I subsidise............but the council is on my side, for the time being.

[skippy124]

  LogicprObe said:

It's not off topic.

Individual efforts are only token feelgood things. Real change could be achieved if the government actually built new power stations to replace coal fired installations.

But they are not doing that.

Governments need to look at their own building codes.

I can't believe they are still passing house designs with no eaves and no insulation.

Have a proper read of the OP's opening post, he was not asking for negative one liners or wingeing about the government not fixing it.

  Briz Vegas said:

I wanted to start a new and different thread to that other climate change thread.

Anyone see insight on SBS tonight. Interesting discussion about power prices going up, but the best bit was those that were starting to look outside the square. Rather than moaning about a 10% increase in power bills due to a carbon price they were showing how new technology, admittedly with upfront costs, was the longer term solution and that technology was green. The point was made that we are up for billions of investment regardless so it is better to make that smart and green.

You can watch this program on the SBS website if you missed it (if its not up now it will be shortly)

The big point was made that solar prices are coming down rapidly. One entrepreneur reported prices reducing by half in the past 2 years and he was making a business out of large buildings roof space, with plans to sell the power to the building owners at less than current retail.

Electric cars came up again as an added strain on the system, but this is only a significant factor without smart charging that uses wasted off peak power.

I think so long as these trends continue we are looking at some really interesting developments in the area of energy generation and intelligent grids and usage. After all if you can manage your use and get 20% usage savings then you are 10% better off than before the carbon price on power. In my case you should be 20% better off as I buy 100% green power.

I would like to get Renault Fluence ZE electric which will sell for $35K plus battery leasing but my milage is too low to make it more cost efficient compared to a gas car, although I may do it anyway if finances allow (I drive a 15 year old 4 cylinder car, I spent all my money on hifi).

I would be interested to know if anyone else is keen on this potential energy revolution that was hinted at on the insight program. I am particularly interested in comments about how this could be made to work in the medium term as it would seem that we need to think beyond next year and the immediate problem of increasing power bills because we aren't prepared to change anything.

I'm going to be a pain and ask for solutions rather than just the barriers to change. I think the negativity towards the carbon price is due to people not being prepared to come on the journey and look at the opportunities, but then I would think that because I find the new solutions far more interesting than the old ones.

[Upgrayed]

Blue Gen, patented ceramic fuel cell uses gas to make electricity, developed in Australia. CFU is code on ASX. Worth a look.

[LogicprObe]

  skippy124 said:

Have a proper read of the OP's opening post, he was not asking for negative one liners or wingeing about the government not fixing it.

No. He's asking for a free go at posting an airy fairy, pie in the sky, wishlist.

You know what you get when it's all positives and no negatives, Skip...............no current flow!

Sure, I wish someone would build a Thorium reactor to generate baseload power, maybe even a huge geothermal plant.

I'm afraid I'll be dead and gone by the time that comes around.....if ever.

You can't turn a blind eye to the hypocrisy of weening ourselves off coal (which we aren't) and increasing our output to export markets.

The token tax imposed on this.............where does it go?

Maybe to pay off the debt incurred by the pink batts and school halls debacles.

Not to any great infrastucture scheme like a Snowy Mountains type scheme for Northern Queensland.

(and possibly one in NSW as well)

We need more than one electricity storage mechanism in this country and none of our 'leaders' are showing anything like the foresight of our forefathers.

Imagine if the Harbour Bridge was 2 lanes each way like the M5? What a debacle that would be?

(In fact, Bob Carr only wanted one lane each way in the tunnel section)

And as for people buying 'Green Power', what a joke that is.

What do they do with the 'Green Power' they don't sell? Save it until tomorrow?

Anyway, I've heard that those schemes are oversubscribed and the gullible are being ripped off, as usual.

Here's a good news story to finish with http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/breaking-news/nissan-says-electric-car-can-power-home/story-e6freuyi-1226106885740 I won't bother picking holes in it..........just yet.

[hired goon]

G'day,

  LogicprObe said:

No. He's asking for a free go at posting an airy fairy, pie in the sky, wishlist.

You are thread-crapping and not respecting the OP's wishes. If someone asks a question about the virtues of valve amps and it would a thread-crap to start rubbishing said technology and spout off-topic rants about solid state amps, etc. It's simple manners, really.

Anyway, back on topic, I'm thinking about installing some PV solar panels when I get back to Oz,since my house ha a nice north-facing roof, although a lot of space is currently occupied by pool heating tubes. A mate of mine has installed solar panels and is getting some nice cheques from the electricity company for supplying some power back to the grid.

--Geoff

[Two Flies]

  LogicprObe said:

No. He's asking for a free go at posting an airy fairy, pie in the sky, wishlist.

You know what you get when it's all positives and no negatives, Skip...............no current flow!

Sure, I wish someone would build a Thorium reactor to generate baseload power, maybe even a huge geothermal plant.

I'm afraid I'll be dead and gone by the time that comes around.....if ever.

You can't turn a blind eye to the hypocrisy of weening ourselves off coal (which we aren't) and increasing our output to export markets.

The token tax imposed on this.............where does it go?

Maybe to pay off the debt incurred by the pink batts and school halls debacles.

Not to any great infrastucture scheme like a Snowy Mountains type scheme for Northern Queensland.

(and possibly one in NSW as well)

We need more than one electricity storage mechanism in this country and none of our 'leaders' are showing anything like the foresight of our forefathers.

Imagine if the Harbour Bridge was 2 lanes each way like the M5? What a debacle that would be?

(In fact, Bob Carr only wanted one lane each way in the tunnel section)

And as for people buying 'Green Power', what a joke that is.

What do they do with the 'Green Power' they don't sell? Save it until tomorrow?

Anyway, I've heard that those schemes are oversubscribed and the gullible are being ripped off, as usual.

Here's a good news story to finish with http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/breaking-news/nissan-says-electric-car-can-power-home/story-e6freuyi-1226106885740 I won't bother picking holes in it..........just yet.

Dave please give it a rest in this thread BZ is after possible solutions not criticisms. Your cynicism and criticism on the subject has been welcomed and duly noted in two other threads.

[Art Vandelay]

  ewhen88 said:

Blue Gen, patented ceramic fuel cell uses gas to make electricity, developed in Australia. CFU is code on ASX. Worth a look.

From what I can find, they are only being made for commercial applications at the moment, but I'll keep an eye on that space.

AGL has told me, if I can find 5 other interested neighbours that they will hook up the gas. The only problem is that I will have to pay the full $12,000 connection fee and then seek reimbursement from each neighbour. Of course, they are under no obligation to pay.

I'll keep searching for options.

[Art Vandelay]

  davidsss said:

Art, there are a few things you can still do. I would first look at your power bill. How much power are you using and where is it going. $3,000pa does seem excessive. Believe me, changing from 100watt light globes to 16watt compact flouros will make no dent on a bill that size. Look for heating and cooling as the main culprits. Using less power would save money. You can also buy green power, one asumes since it is green that it would not incur a carbon tax.

I'm amazed that there is nowhere on your roof for solar but it is possible. Can't think what else to suggest.

DS

And it's a large roof too, which is a pity. The council are very tree conscious, and the neighbours are very keen to report missing limbs, so lopping and trimming is out of the question.

Now that the carbon tax is being implemented, we are all effectively paying for green energy, and I will definitely not qualify for any rebates, so it looks as though I will just need to be vigilant with power use. The swimming pool and its conductive solar heating accounts for quite a bit of the energy use. Smart metering is still 3 years away in our area, but that would allow me to filter the pool during the off-peak periods.

I was also thinking of distributing power from the off peak hot water circuit, but I'm not sure of the legalities. If I could clean the pool at night using off peak energy that would be a good saving.

[Two Flies]

Art

I've an electric hot water service, over the last 12 months or so I've taken to switching it off at the main.

During the winter months I only switch it on 20 minutes before having a shower, if I want to do the dishes I've been boiling up the jug.

In the summer I'm finding its stays well hot enough and is only necessary to switch it on for 20 minutes every 2/3 days.

Last winter's electricity bill (May, June ,July) was $275.For the same period this year it was only $167.

I've also taken other measures to cut my electricity usage by only switching on lighting when necessary, I can get away with this due to living in a 3rd floor unit in the inner west where there is more than enough ambient light from the surrounding neighbourhood.

[Art Vandelay]

All good ideas mc240. I do already switch lights on and off as needed and minimise power use where possible. However, without gas the power is all derived from electricity - including the kitchen stove and oven etc. The off-peak hot water heater is not actually a significant contributer to the power bill, although adjustments to the thermostat might be possible for a slight reduction.

I'm thinking of buying a single pv solar panel and mounting it on the roof before summer - to study solar feasibility. I haven't competely given up.

[Two Flies]

Yeah same here Art all electric appliances but from $275 to $167 in the peak winter period with the only major change being switching of the hot water service 23.5 hours a day,

(I've) concluded it is a significant contributor in my case.The previous bill before the $167 was $175 leading into the winter period.

Mate all the best with single pv panel,I for one would be interested to hear how it works out for you keep us posted.

[LogicprObe]

  Art Vandelay said:

From what I can find, they are only being made for commercial applications at the moment, but I'll keep an eye on that space.

AGL has told me, if I can find 5 other interested neighbours that they will hook up the gas. The only problem is that I will have to pay the full $12,000 connection fee and then seek reimbursement from each neighbour. Of course, they are under no obligation to pay.

I'll keep searching for options.

I was quoted $30,000 connection fee over 10 years ago when the Goldline gas went down the street.

I currently use 18KG LPG for cooking only that I lug down the stairs myself because OH&S says that the driver can't.

[Briz Vegas]

I just killed my own post - oh well this will be shorter and short is good.

Art, you might like to contact your local council for advice on getting a home electricity audit. This could save you dollars and some councils will give you a rebate on this service. If your hot water was the problem I would suggest a heat pump system but you say you have that under control already. Dare I say insulation from a reputable installer might be part of the solution (dodges fruit and other objects thrown from the galleries).

Homes and unit energy efficiency are now highly regulated but on a performance basis. You can drop the eaves but you need to pick up efficiency points elsewhere. In gas areas electric hot water is out.

Solar rights are a new area of neighbourly conflict and there has been government buck passing on this issue. PV needs full sun in most cases (current technology, UQ had this beat years back but I have heard nothing recently). Building to building overshadowing can be managed in many cases but trees are still in the too hard basket currently. This will change as the complaints inevitably increase and the powers that be are pressured to act.

[Richard Cranium]

  LogicprObe said:

No. He's asking for a free go at posting an airy fairy, pie in the sky, wishlist.

You know what you get when it's all positives and no negatives, Skip...............no current flow!

Sure, I wish someone would build a Thorium reactor to generate baseload power, maybe even a huge geothermal plant.

I'm afraid I'll be dead and gone by the time that comes around.....if ever.

You can't turn a blind eye to the hypocrisy of weening ourselves off coal (which we aren't) and increasing our output to export markets.

The token tax imposed on this.............where does it go?

Maybe to pay off the debt incurred by the pink batts and school halls debacles.

Not to any great infrastucture scheme like a Snowy Mountains type scheme for Northern Queensland.

(and possibly one in NSW as well)

.

On a positive note, Wayne Swannie announced today that coal exports are up 20%, so that's good news.

[Tapet]

Trees are a problem, have solar hot water here and 3Kw solar PV. However from 3pm there shaded by trees on the neighbours property.

Been onto him (nice and politely) to give them the chop but he refuses to do so. Even tho one is a monster that if a cyclone blows this thing over it will tototaly destroy his house and possably damage mine. I pointed that out to him that perhaps he goes for a drive to take a look down at Mission Beach to see the carnage but still no go and I'm happy to pay for it. The council here is easy going when it comes to trees but then again in a cyclone prone area but you still need a co-opprative neighbour.

There is still alternatives to reducing that power bill Art. You all ready have off peak lower tariff circut. You can even have a battery bank that will charge up during the night on off peak 11 cents a KWhr here and feed back in on 44 cents a KWhr. (here) Same type of thing but not a solar panel in sight. Run everything you can on it usually it's just not available between 1800 to 2100 a day. If you have a second fridge get rid of it. Or if you really need it, run it on off peak, a chest freezer holds over well for just 3 hrs. Really check out the standby power it's supprising how it can add up and it's always on. A heat pump for hot water is alot more effecient however why people install these when there roof is not shaded has me buggard.

Edited August 3, 2011 by Tapet