Owen Posted March 27, 2016 Posted March 27, 2016 Projectors are HDR "compatible" they can't do HDR because HDR is mastered for 1000nits and thats not suitable for projectors or any large screen dark room viewing situation IMHO. Attempting to use "HDR" results in a much dimmer picture, much reduced contrast and greatly elevated black level because the dynamic iris is disabled and locked wide open. Thats one step forward and three steps back IMHO and I wont be putting up with that compromise. Its exactly the opposite of what I strive to achieve.
bandyka Posted March 27, 2016 Author Posted March 27, 2016 (edited) Which is exactly what I said before on this thread but I got told off However HDR is not only about brightness which you need keep in mind its also about colour range and dynamics which in my books are some of the most important factors. Since I said that I've seen it in action and seeing is believing. I also said here before that 4K is not only about resolution and I got told off, look at who is posting now about how glorious UHD is Lets keep this for another thread anyway. Even if we don't look at HDR the older gen JVC are not fully UHD compatible so no good to me. Edited March 27, 2016 by bandyka
Owen Posted March 27, 2016 Posted March 27, 2016 However HDR is not only about brightness which you need keep in mind its also about colour range and dynamics which in my books are some of the most important factors. Colour "range" is dictated by gamut which is a totally different issue to HDR. We dont need HDR to get P3 or Rec.2020 gamut but 4K Bluray is forcing HDR on us whether we want it or not. Video mastered for 1000 nits is totally wrong for a projector and highly inaccurate to the original source. Dynamic range is dictated by contrast and we get MUCH greater contrast from projectors without HDR. I also said here before that 4K is not only about resolution and I got told off, look at who is posting now about how glorious UHD is You lost me, who? Not me thats for sure. I'm all for 4K Bluray as it has a lot of potential, but as a projector user the mastering for 1000 nits with no way to get the original cinema content unmolested is a major disappointment. It's a shame that the powers that be felt that 4K Bluray would not look "different" enough without "HDR" to capture the interest of the average consumer, and they where right. If they had given us the cinema release on disk without HDR "enhancement" it would be very difficultly to pick the difference between the 4K disk and normal 1080 Bluray version. That's great for 4K marketing, but the reality is the 1080 Bluray is overall closer to cinema release then the HDR "enhanced" 4K Bluray version. Even if we don't look at HDR the older gen JVC are not fully UHD compatible so no good to me. Fair enough, but the improvement is much more subtle then you seem to expect.
Tweet Posted March 28, 2016 Posted March 28, 2016 One would hope the 4K movie producers would drop the HDR 'enhancement' when the reflected sales of such disks is pretty poor amongst early adopters. As for 'HDR enabled' panel users I would think the novelty of having their retina's seared every time they watched an enhanced 4K movie would drive them back to 1080p Blu-ray. C.M
bandyka Posted March 28, 2016 Author Posted March 28, 2016 (edited) Well what I meant was that HDR and UHD go hand in hand and I've seen HDR against SDR on the same JVC and HDR was very impressive to my eyes however you guys might be right on the explanation front that's what I experienced the HDR image just had more dept and contrast, overall looked more dynamic. However I've also raised that having really bright scenes in a movie will probably introduce health issues especially on very bright TV sets. I am having issues with PJ as is with very bright scenes. Regardless of this I am going to decide today between an X5000 and the Sony 65ES, neither are perfect for my needs but the Sony seems to be a better all-rounder, the JVC offers more future proofing and slightly better blacks. Very tough call. Edited March 28, 2016 by bandyka
gbickle1503560852 Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 http://www.cine4home.de/knowhow/4k_uhd-premium_bluray/test_4k_bluray_uhd_sony_jvc.htm They compare UHD bluray vs normal bluray on the x7000 here (turn on translate)... Seems like a very noticeable difference!
bandyka Posted March 29, 2016 Author Posted March 29, 2016 (edited) Yes that is exactly my experience even with the 5000. Also in the UK and the US now they are starting to get their UHD players ready reports are flowing in and it looks like HDR makes the image looking nothing short of stunning once BT.2020 has been uploaded. I managed to pick up a 5000 yesterday for an insane price. I am using it as a guinea pig to see if I like JVC. Well first impression are very positive. The image is stunning. I am not a big fan of e-shift on standard 1080p content as it softens the image but when I play proper UHD content the result is stunning. After adjusting some settings gaming is just fine its definitely not a deal breaker. However the gaming image is not nearly as sharp as the Sony was, is much softer looking (even with e-shift off) which I don't like so trying to work out the settings to make it look sharper. Any tips on that?? How it compares to the Sony? Image quality: not even comparable. Fan noise: the Sony was quieter in high lamp mode than this beast in low mode. 3D: if people could watch 3D in this sort of quality I am sure the format would have survived. General findings: HDMI switching is an utter pain the arse with extremely long wait times. Cannot get 4K@60Hz only at 30Hz but I am sure its a cable issue. A huge plus: the Sony used to hurt my eyes with its brightness, this thing is much more comfortable for some reason at the same brightness. If I still like it in a month watch the classified for a good deal as I might upgrade to the X9000. Cheers guys. Edited March 29, 2016 by bandyka
Satanica Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 Cannot get 4K@60Hz only at 30Hz but I am sure its a cable issue. Don't you need HDMI 2.0a for 4K@60Hz ?
cwt Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 All the new jvc's have hdmi 2.0a .. May well be the cables bandwidth reading some avs experiences . Even some certified 'hi speed' cant manage Don't you need HDMI 2.0a for 4K@60Hz ?
Satanica Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 (edited) All the new jvc's have hdmi 2.0a .. May well be the cables bandwidth reading some avs experiences . Even some certified 'hi speed' cant manage Yeah I know about the JVC's. But AFAIK you also need a device on the other end with HDMI 2.0a to get 4K@60Hz. Edited March 30, 2016 by Satanica
bandyka Posted March 30, 2016 Author Posted March 30, 2016 correct and my bottleneck is the cable, better yet I will get the improved, 2.0b version as that seems to be the ultimate for 60Hz and HDR. Lots of users in the US are having trouble getting 60Hz up and running due to cable issues.
bandyka Posted March 30, 2016 Author Posted March 30, 2016 http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_2_0/index.aspx
Satanica Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 correct and my bottleneck is the cable, better yet I will get the improved, 2.0b version as that seems to be the ultimate for 60Hz and HDR. Lots of users in the US are having trouble getting 60Hz up and running due to cable issues. What is your source device?
bandyka Posted March 30, 2016 Author Posted March 30, 2016 Onkyo TX NR 3030, HTPC with geforce 970 GTX. I can select the correct mode in the geforce panel but when I check the display device in windows (projector) it says it only supports 30Hz. It is a cable issue I am certain.
Satanica Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 Onkyo TX NR 3030, HTPC with geforce 970 GTX. I can select the correct mode in the geforce panel but when I check the display device in windows (projector) it says it only supports 30Hz. It is a cable issue I am certain. Not trying to tell you how to suck eggs, but you've tried it without the Onkyo?
bandyka Posted March 30, 2016 Author Posted March 30, 2016 No but since my cable is a 1.4a I am 100% it is the cable and the AVR is definitely capable.
Satanica Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 No but since my cable is a 1.4a I am 100% it is the cable and the AVR is definitely capable. Why are you 100% sure? I'd be trying without the AVR because what's the physical difference between a 1.4 and a 2.0 cable? AFAIK there is no difference.
bandyka Posted March 30, 2016 Author Posted March 30, 2016 (edited) Because it says it in the specs and this is one of the reasons I bought it for and HDMI 1.4 is simply not capable. Please refer to the HDMI link I posted earlier. It is possible though via Nvidia's compression method but I am not into that. If there wasn't a difference between 1.4 and 2.0 why would they be called different? Sorry I can't compute that logic Simply put 2.0 is much higher bandwidth which UHD needs. Edited March 30, 2016 by bandyka
Satanica Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 If there wasn't a difference between 1.4 and 2.0 why would they be called different? Sorry I can't compute that logic Just because it's not rated or rated at the time you bought it does not mean it's not capable. Sorry I can't compute the logic of not trying
bandyka Posted March 30, 2016 Author Posted March 30, 2016 (edited) ook thanks for your advice but I am quite certain it is not the issue with the AVR as it is a flagship model designed for this purpose, hundreds of others facing the same problem worldwide that I know of due to cable issues so that suggests it is the cable besides if you've read the HDMI link you would realize that it quite simply requires 2.0.a minimum which I also confirmed today with a professional calibrator and the main editor of AV forums in the UK also confirmed this. Is that enough evidence? May I kindly suggest you read up on the bandwidth requirements for 4K@60Hz and HDR? Edited March 30, 2016 by bandyka
cwt Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 Yeah maybe bandykas got such a video card as you mentioned before ? http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php/topic/196862-next-generation-jvcs-x500070009000/page-38#entry2062430 Anyway heres a good read on the recent state of play for pc's for anyone interested.. http://www.anandtech.com/show/9152/futureproofing-htpcs-for-the-4k-era-hdmi-hdcp-and-hevc Yeah I know about the JVC's. But AFAIK you also need a device on the other end with HDMI 2.0a to get 4K@60Hz.
Satanica Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 ...besides if you've read the HDMI link you would realize that it quite simply requires 2.0.a minimum which I also confirmed today with a professional calibrator and the main editor of AV forums in the UK also confirmed this. Is that enough evidence? May I kindly suggest you read up on the bandwidth requirements for 4K@60Hz and HDR? That is not enough evidence for me at this stage because AFAIK many HDMI 1.4 cables fulfill the bandwidth requirements of HDMI 2.0a, see below: http://www.cnet.com/au/news/hdmi-2-0-what-you-need-to-know/ http://www.trustedreviews.com/opinions/hdmi-2-0-vs-1-4
bandyka Posted March 31, 2016 Author Posted March 31, 2016 Well I am not here to convince anyone I am only posting my findings for the benfit of the community, its one things to read stuff on the net and anotehr to do it in practice. I went to visit a couple of my main IT suppliers today and they both confirmed 1.4 standard is simply not capable, also phoned a few reputable HiFi stores and they also confirmed this. Then I went and ordered a cable from one of the recommended premium suppliers and the official answer was: the cable needs to be able to carry the full bandwidth of the 2.0a standard otherwise it will not provide the desired outcome, for anything over 3 meters it should be of the highest quality otherwise signal loss may occur. This is completely in line with findings of the early adopters in the US. Anyway this was only a mention in my post about my first impressions with the X5000 but it seems it got some attention:) I am still very pleased with PJ despite some of the nuances the Sony did better but I am pretty sure I'll stick with JVC and upgrade to the 9000. Looking forward to their native 4K panels later down the track.
Satanica Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 (edited) Well it seems there is a lot of contracting information because those articles I linked to completely contradict the information you have been given. I'm not absolutely sure what information is correct; so I'd be simply unplugging the AVR out of the equation and testing it for myself with the equipment I have. But I understand you simply don't want to even try that; so as you will. Edited March 31, 2016 by Satanica
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