Dtv Rollout To Start In Sw By The End Of This Month

[DrP]

Also noted: no mention of costings to support the position claimed earlier.

These studio centres quoted are used to produce news and commercial inserts for their local zones. These feeds back to Wollongong are all recorded so that they can be sent sequentially to minimise the bandwidth on the link required.

I am fairly confident that WIN Rockhampton does not 'feed back' to Wollongong. Rockhampton receives a feed from Wollongong, inserts local content and distributes directly to each transmission area, in a similar manner to which 7 QLD operates. When occasional 'severe' technical problems have occurred to WIN (from Rockhampton) what was observed tends to suggest this mode of operation.

This model is being used by the capital city networks however some use Telstra's fibre optic network.

Given that one complete transport stream has to be carried to each capital where it is transmitted it makes sense to operate in this way. If 'capital city networks' instead of producing a service for one transmission zone that covers millions of people, had to produce multiple services for areas that contained 100,000 people and those areas were geographically remote from the main playout centre but clustered around the capital cities you might well find a model, similar to WIN's apparent operation, in place instead.

You will note that these microwave and fibre optic networks are quite capable of reliable operation provide that it is correctly designed.

It should also be noted that Southern Cross TV is owned by the Macquarie Bank which also owns Broadcast Australia. They operate all ABC & SBS transmitters as well as some commercial transmitters as well.

Who said they weren't reliable?

Edited November 30, 2009 by DrP

[hrh]

I am fairly confident that WIN Rockhampton does not 'feed back' to Wollongong. Rockhampton receives a feed from Wollongong, inserts local content and distributes directly to each transmission area, in a similar manner to which 7 QLD operates. When occasional 'severe' technical problems have occurred to WIN (from Rockhampton) what was observed tends to suggest this mode of operation.

Yes, I will go along with that theory. Although I don't think they would get a program feed from Wollongong, rather it would be more localised from say QTQ to be inline with Brisbane and/or Queensland.

This is guess mode.

Given that one complete transport stream has to be carried to each capital where it is transmitted it makes sense to operate in this way. If 'capital city networks' instead of producing a service for one transmission zone that covers millions of people, had to produce multiple services for areas that contained 100,000 people and those areas were geographically remote from the main playout centre but clustered around the capital cities you might well find a model, similar to WIN's apparent operation, in place instead.

Except for the ABCs current operation which will change with the new playout centre all the content comes from the centralised operation centre. So any local content such as news has to go there to be sent back to the intended market.

So for Perth all the local news and current affairs programs go to the central area (Sydney for Ten, Melbourne for Seven and Woollongong for Nine) before being sent back as per normal to go to air.

Who said they weren't reliable?

I can tell you the microwave links are not as reliable as the fibre feeds, and DDA use almost exclusively microwave in their eastern Australia network. Or more appropriately the DDA microwave network is not as robust as the PMG/Telecom/Telstra one which isn't/wasn't as robust as the fibre network is now. There is still a fair amount of Telstra's microwave in use, but nowhere near what there used to be.

It is interesting to note that a huge amount of the old Telstra microwave network has been superceded by the fibre for that very reason as well as the greater traffic carrying ability. Although the telstra microwave had a fair bit of redundancy built into it such as bearer/path duplication to maintain a high reliability. I don't think the DDA one has such a large amount of redundancy, if any in some critical areas. Unfortunately the microwave is old technology and the service provided on it shows.

[alanh]

hrh,

I agree with you about fibre optics, however microwave is not only used terrestrially but also it is the same technology from satellite.

The reliability of most microwave links is controlled by the spacing of the repeaters, sufficient heights for Fresnel zone clearances and the amount of diversity.

From a TV network's point of view is the cost of getting their signals to all transmitters and the price of reverse links for program contribution. If you own the microwave link system, then it is the total cost of operating that company compared to the price of outsourcing that task to another company with a fibre link.

AlanH

[DrP]

You still haven't provided any figures comparing the typical costs of operating regional playout such as WIN and 7 QLD do with the costs of centralising everything and hauling multiple program streams over long distances.

If the costing is as attractive as you suggest, why has WIN and 7 QLD operated in the manner in which they have for so long? Why has WIN emptied a bucket of money into Rockhampton over the past few years? WIN doesn't appear to spend money unless it has to, so Why is an appropriate question to ask.

Edited November 30, 2009 by DrP

[alanh]

DrP,

You can ask them, your closer. The money they are spending is it for program making or replacement of the playback equipment? All I know is that they have disembowelled Perth. Remember the huge lip sync problem they left for 6 weeks. They use the centralised playout system for Perth and WA.

AlanH

[brisdigitaldan]

Yes, I will go along with that theory. Although I don't think they would get a program feed from Wollongong, rather it would be more localised from say QTQ to be inline with Brisbane and/or Queensland.

This is guess mode.

RTQ Rocky get their feed always via Wollongong except for QTQ News. You can tell via a couple of ways. Timing - especially during daylight savings. There can be a 2 minute difference as they record the one hour delay independantly. You can tell in the overlap places such as the Sunshine Coast. Also, I've seen TCN news go to air in Bundy for a few seconds at 6pm some years ago as they forget to change the feed to QTQ. There is also usually one second of "black" between QTQ News & ACA as they rivert back to Wollongong.

[DrP]

DrP,

You can ask them, your closer. The money they are spending is it for program making or replacement of the playback equipment? All I know is that they have disembowelled Perth. Remember the huge lip sync problem they left for 6 weeks. They use the centralised playout system for Perth and WA.

AlanH

WIN's 'pull out' of Perth doesn't surprise me at all due to the nature of programming in WA. From a distribution point of view, it makes sense.

Yes indeed I do remember the audio sync problem, as no doubt many others do. No doubt there are also forum members that recall unusual claims being made about telling WIN how to fix the problem.....

[hrh]

WIN's 'pull out' of Perth doesn't surprise me at all due to the nature of programming in WA. From a distribution point of view, it makes sense.

Sadly from a quality of service point of view it was an extremely poor decision, but quality of service wasn't the driving force.

Even from a distibution point of view it really made no sense as there was/is very little that came from Wollongong - Perth 9 is a Nine station showing the Nine Network product not a mish mash of others and STW did a good job of serving up the product, unlike what we are now getting out of Wollongong with copious amounts of black and incorrect switching of program feeds.

[DrP]

Copious amounts of black seems to be the norm for WIN. When I watched the odd program on WIN SD ad segments regularly cut in early or late with periods of black.

[alanh]

All,

It should be remembered that QTQ Brisbane, TCN Sydney, GTV Melbourne, NBN Newcastle and Northern Coast, & Sunshine Coast and one of the Darwin stations are not WIN stations but are the Nine Network.

AlanH

[willwalk]

All,

It should be remembered that QTQ Brisbane, TCN Sydney, GTV Melbourne, NBN Newcastle and Northern Coast, & Sunshine Coast and one of the Darwin stations are not WIN stations but are the Nine Network.

AlanH

Alan,

On the Sunshine Coast, WIN TV is the local Nine network station for the Sunshine coast, although some areas of the Sunshine Coast can receive Nine from Brisbane. Northern coast? What do you mean? Are you referring to Northern NSW including the Tamworth and Northwestern NSW as well as the Newcastle Hunter area as well as the Northern rivers area? Northern NSW is covered by NBN which is owned by PBL Media.

William Walker

Edited November 30, 2009 by willwalk

[hrh]

All,

It should be remembered that QTQ Brisbane, TCN Sydney, GTV Melbourne, NBN Newcastle and Northern Coast, & Sunshine Coast and one of the Darwin stations are not WIN stations but are the Nine Network.

AlanH

And your point is?

[alanh]

hrh,

WIN programs to Qld will not go through Nine/NBN link systems.

AlanH

[DrP]

All,

It should be remembered that QTQ Brisbane, TCN Sydney, GTV Melbourne, NBN Newcastle and Northern Coast, & Sunshine Coast and one of the Darwin stations are not WIN stations but are the Nine Network.

AlanH

It should also be remembered that it helps if posts are relevant to the topic being discussed. What bearing the ownership of the networks mentioned has upon the location of WIN playout is not entirely clear.

[DrP]

hrh,

WIN programs to Qld will not go through Nine/NBN link systems.

AlanH

Has anyone claimed that this is how WIN operates?

Actually reviewing the thread reveals that someone has claimed that at least part of WIN's operation 'goes through' another network and that person was you! You claimed that WIN HD 'goes through' Nine. The content on WIN HD originates from 9, as does 95% of the rest of the content shown on WIN (in areas that WIN carries 9 exclusively), but what WIN does with it after that is entirely in WIN's hands.

Edited November 30, 2009 by DrP

[Smacca]

Has anyone claimed that this is how WIN operates?

Actually reviewing the thread reveals that someone has claimed that at least part of WIN's operation 'goes through' another network and that person was you! You claimed that WIN HD 'goes through' Nine. The content on WIN HD originates from 9, as does 95% of the rest of the content shown on WIN (in areas that WIN carries 9 exclusively), but what WIN does with it after that is entirely in WIN's hands.

Exactly. Nine "delivers" programming to WIN. It's up to WIN and it's network to then deliver it to their viewers. Nine have nothing to do with distributing WIN's end product.

What I'd like to know is;

Where does the actual programming from Nine come from? Lets look at this schedule for both NSW and Vic:

NSW:

5.30 Hot Seat

6.00 Nine News Sydney

6.30 WIN News (Local)

7.00 ACA

Vic:

5.30 Hot Seat

6.00 Nine News Melbourne

6.30 WIN News (Local)

7.00 ACA

Would WIN Vic and NSW source Hot Seat from the same 'national' feed, then add local Nine News and WIN News bulletins? Or does each area get a clean feed from Nine in their state's capital city? EG: Would GTV Nine Melbourne be feeding WIN Vic a clean feed of their channel? Or would WIN Vic be grabbing programming from Sydney's clean feed?

Bit confusing I know, but I've always wondered.

Edited December 1, 2009 by Smacca

[brisdigitaldan]

TCN - WIN Wollongong - state markets (e.g Rockhampton for QLD's 7 markets)

WIN get a clean feed from TCN.

Exactly. Nine "delivers" programming to WIN. It's up to WIN and it's network to then deliver it to their viewers. Nine have nothing to do with distributing WIN's end product.

What I'd like to know is;

Where does the actual programming from Nine come from? Lets look at this schedule for both NSW and Vic:

NSW:

5.30 Hot Seat

6.00 Nine News Sydney

6.30 WIN News (Local)

7.00 ACA

Vic:

5.30 Hot Seat

6.00 Nine News Melbourne

6.30 WIN News (Local)

7.00 ACA

Would WIN Vic and NSW source Hot Seat from the same 'national' feed, then add local Nine News and WIN News bulletins? Or does each area get a clean feed from Nine in their state's capital city? EG: Would GTV Nine Melbourne be feeding WIN Vic a clean feed of their channel? Or would WIN Vic be grabbing programming from Sydney's clean feed?

Bit confusing I know, but I've always wondered.

[alanh]

All,

Yes, I agree that WIN purchases a clean feed of the Nine network program from TCN. WIN then inserts all of their local programs from remote studios as well as their commercials into separate output feeds to the various regions they cover.

William,

North Coast is North Coast NSW. The only Nine/NBN in Qld is Brisbane including translators on the southern Sunshine Coast and Gold Coast. NBN is only on the Gold Coast. For a complete list see the Get the Best Reception, Regional NSW transmitter list link.

AlanH

[DrP]

Yes, I agree that WIN purchases a clean feed of the Nine network program from TCN. WIN then inserts all of their local programs from remote studios as well as their commercials into separate output feeds to the various regions they cover.

We're getting there. Slowly but steadily. By this time next week we should have alanh accepting the way that WIN operates out of its regional playout centres.

[hrh]

TCN - WIN Wollongong - state markets (e.g Rockhampton for QLD's 7 markets)

WIN get a clean feed from TCN.

Yes, WIN get a clean feed of Nine and Ten. Nine obviously, because they are a Nine affiliate and Ten for the WA regional market which is a mix of both Nine and Ten.

And they got a feed of Seven in SA when they were playing silly buggers and suddenly changed from being a Nine affiliate to Seven a couple of years ago in a lame attempt to show that they couldn't be dictated to by Nine. This also gave Adelaide and Perth that wonderful WIN Wollongong produced show "Susie" as well as deleting Kerri-Anne from their regional lineup.

I believe they have changed sides again a little while ago. And we have certainly gotten rid of Susie from the metro markets.

All,

Yes, I agree that WIN purchases a clean feed of the Nine network program from TCN. WIN then inserts all of their local programs from remote studios as well as their commercials into separate output feeds to the various regions they cover.

William,

North Coast is North Coast NSW. The only Nine/NBN in Qld is Brisbane including translators on the southern Sunshine Coast and Gold Coast. NBN is only on the Gold Coast. For a complete list see the Get the Best Reception, Regional NSW transmitter list link.

AlanH

NBN is Hunter, North West, Northern Rivers, Mid North Coast, Gold Coast, Central Coast

Keep up the campaign DrP

Edited December 1, 2009 by hrh

[CWulf]

Yes, WIN get a clean feed of Nine and Ten. Nine obviously, because they are a Nine affiliate and Ten for the WA regional market which is a mix of both Nine and Ten.

And they got a feed of Seven in SA when they were playing silly buggers and suddenly changed from being a Nine affiliate to Seven a couple of years ago in a lame attempt to show that they couldn't be dictated to by Nine. This also gave Adelaide and Perth that wonderful WIN Wollongong produced show "Susie" as well as deleting Kerri-Anne from their regional lineup.

I believe they have changed sides again a little while ago. And we have certainly gotten rid of Susie from the metro markets.

NBN is Hunter, North West, Northern Rivers, Mid North Coast, Gold Coast, Central Coast

Keep up the campaign DrP

Hi I don't think the switch from 9 to 7 in reg SA was just an attempt to not be dictated to by Nine (although I'm sure that was a big part of it). There was also the small change of the AFL from the 9 to 7/10 networks.

[alanh]

Riverland SA

WIN owns RTS and their single digital signal has SD versions of WIN and the other two networks giving a choice of 3 network's programs.

Also remember that the total population coverage of WIN (including STW Perth and NWS Adelaide) is equal to the Nine network.

AlanH

[RobertL]

Sorry everyone I thought this was the regional WA thread. What has any of this got to do with the DTV rollout in the SW???????????????

[alanh]

TVstabs,

When I get more information about the WA Regional DTV rollout I will start a new strand.

AlanH

[Smacca]

TCN - WIN Wollongong - state markets (e.g Rockhampton for QLD's 7 markets)

WIN get a clean feed from TCN.

So programming before and after state-specific programming is sourced from TCN? Eg: On a Saturday, Postcards Victoria and Nine News Melbourne would be "added" to the WIN Vic schedule which originates from TCN's clean feed? Seems like a nightmare for WIN - they'd be better off just using a clean GTV feed for WIN Vic, rather than picking bits and pieces from two feeds.

Anyway, thanks Dan. It clears it up a bit