Abc3 - Devoted To Kid's Programs

[alanh]

There is nothing to stop a manufacturer from making a receiver conform to multiple standards. This brings economy of bigger production runs.

If an STB does not conform to the standard by being incapable of 125 kHz, are all the reports coming from one model of one brand, many modles of an individual brand or many different brands. Regardless of this the user can take the receiver back to the shop because it cannot do what it says it is capable of.

The current standard still contains SD and HD receivers.

AlanH

[GoForMoe]

There is nothing to stop a manufacturer from making a receiver conform to multiple standards. This brings economy of bigger production runs.

And there is nothing to stop a manufacturer from not meeting them either, as I've outlined above there are many things in our standard that are either missing or poorly implemented in a large amount of boxes.

If an STB does not conform to the standard by being incapable of 125 kHz, are all the reports coming from one model of one brand, many modles of an individual brand or many different brands. Regardless of this the user can take the receiver back to the shop because it cannot do what it says it is capable of.

Most of them do the offset but require manual tuning. The person at the shop will just blame your antenna, because the average person has no idea what an offset is.

The current standard still contains SD and HD receivers.

And while that continues to be the case MPEG-4 will not get a look in from anyone who doesn't fall for the Freeview marketing rubbish and purchases a receiver that is double the price for a feature that will not be used in the box's life.

[g12345567]

I wonder where ABC is getting the extra bandwidth to broadcast another tv channel. As they have said earlier they did not have enough bandwidth to broadcast DIG Country. So how can they have enough to run ABC3?

[alanh]

g12345567,

The answer is no because they would have to add a new transmitter at hundreds of sites around Australia.

Dig country is being transmitted on digital radio in all mainland capital cities. It will be spread to country areas as digital radio expands. Dig and Dig Jazz along with SBS radio 1 & SBS2 piggy back on the TV signal but are also being transmitted on digital radio. With the pressure on data capacity for more TV. I would not be surprised if these radio channels eventually disappear from the TV channels.

You need a DAB+ radio to receive Dig Country Digital Radio DAB+ & DRM. Please read the links.

AlanH

[GoForMoe]

I wonder where ABC is getting the extra bandwidth to broadcast another tv channel. As they have said earlier they did not have enough bandwidth to broadcast DIG Country. So how can they have enough to run ABC3?

Because management have a good way of making decisions and then leaving it for the engineers to figure it out. Dig Country wasn't going to get someone in management to argue that one of the TV channels needs to be lowered in quality, but the joy of a childrens channel is enough for them to ignore the practicalities.

They will just lower the already low quality of ABC1 and 2 and drop the extra audio (I don't see 5.1 on ABC1 SD surviving) to make room, something they weren't going to do for Dig Country. There is enough bandwidth to do what management want to do with it, we will probably still see ABC4, no matter how bad the impacts will be.

Alanh seems to be thinking you want Dig Country on FM or something, I'd ignore his post.

[alanh]

Go For Moe,

The ABC has publicly stated that Dig Country is part of Digital radio in mainland state capitals. I never mentioned FM because this would require a huge number of new FM transmitters. That will never happen.

I agree that to get the data capacity for an extra channel will result in a reduction of quality of the existing channels. The only question is how much reduction. MPEG4 requires less than half the amount of data that the equivalent MPEG2 compression used by all Australian TV stations does now. The other ABC program streams will continue to use MPEG2 to keep existing equipment operating, however ABC3 is a new program, which will be available from every ABC digital TV transmitter from day one.

AlanH

[GoForMoe]

Go For Moe,

The ABC has publicly stated that Dig Country is part of Digital radio in mainland state capitals. I never mentioned FM because this would require a huge number of new FM transmitters. That will never happen.

I was more trying to figure out why you said 'The answer is no because they would have to add a new transmitter at hundreds of sites around Australia.', you don't need a new transmitter to change bit rate allocations to squeeze in another audio stream into the ABC mux. Digital radio has nothing to do with this thread, which is why your reply seemed so erroneous.

I agree that to get the data capacity for an extra channel will result in a reduction of quality of the existing channels. The only question is how much reduction. MPEG4 requires less than half the amount of data that the equivalent MPEG2 compression used by all Australian TV stations does now. The other ABC program streams will continue to use MPEG2 to keep existing equipment operating, however ABC3 is a new program, which will be available from every ABC digital TV transmitter from day one

Does the funding for ABC3 include subsidies to replace MPEG2 equipment with MPEG4, both on the ABC end and for home viewers. I'd rather they use MPEG2 and have it look a little bit worse than make everyone get a new receiver.

[alanh]

Go For Moe,

Dig Country is an ABC program and is already in the Mux for digital radio. The relevance of this is that it is now being transmitted on radio so it is available for portable reception.

The mention of extra transmitters was referring to setting up an FM network for Dig Country which won't happen.

So when ABC digital radio starts on Wednesday it has Dig, Dig Jazz and Dig country included with local radio, radio national, ABC classics and JJJ ++. These transmissions is predicted to cover 60 % of the Australian population.

The two additional sound channels of Dig & later Dig Jazz were added to the TV mux when there was only ABC1 and ABC HD.

The ABC has no intention to use more of the TV mux to add more radio which do not exist already. They are already pushed for data rate for TV without adding extra data for radio. They would better off taking Dig & Dig Jazz off the TV mux and use the data for TV program feeds. I agree that sound channels use less data than picture signals, however there are others who would like to keep 5.1 sound capability.

As far as MPEG4 goes, the ABC3 program is for kids only and is not 24 hour/day. This will spur the manufacturers to include MPEG4 decoding so that MPEG4 will eventually be available for a switch over to all programs being transmitted in MPEG4 at a point in the future. This will eliminate the need for wasteful simulcasting. The benefit would be for example each station having a main program and a second program both in HD.

AlanH

[DrP]

The ABC has no intention to use more of the TV mux to add more radio which do not exist already. They are already pushed for data rate for TV without adding extra data for radio. They would better off taking Dig & Dig Jazz off the TV mux and use the data for TV program feeds. I agree that sound channels use less data than picture signals, however there are others who would like to keep 5.1 sound capability.

ABC could, right now, if it so desired broadcast approx 4 more 224k stereo 'radio' channels and have absolutely no impact whatsoever on the picture or audio quality of any existing 'television' program. All that has to happen is the 900 kbit/sec or so currently occupied by the applet and associated streams be turned off. Since no one out there can make use of them no one would be disadvantaged.

As far as MPEG4 AVC goes. Give it a rest alanh. If you are as connected to the TV industry as you claim you are you already know the lay of the land WRT MPEG4 AVC and ABC yet you continue in your line of posts as if it was a done deal - guaranteed that ABC3 will be transmitted as MPEG4 AVC.

Edited June 29, 2009 by DrP

[GoForMoe]

Go For Moe,

Dig Country is an ABC program and is already in the Mux for digital radio. The relevance of this is that it is now being transmitted on radio so it is available for portable reception.

The mention of extra transmitters was referring to setting up an FM network for Dig Country which won't happen.

So when ABC digital radio starts on Wednesday it has Dig, Dig Jazz and Dig country included with local radio, radio national, ABC classics and JJJ ++. These transmissions is predicted to cover 60 % of the Australian population.

I never mentioned FM because this would require a huge number of new FM transmitters. That will never happen.

Huh? You both never mentioned FM and was talking about FM. The initial question wasn't a serious one, it was thinking about how odd it is the ABC have claimed that there isn't enough room for a 256kbps audio stream, but there is enough to do another TV channel.

The ABC has no intention to use more of the TV mux to add more radio which do not exist already. They are already pushed for data rate for TV without adding extra data for radio. They would better off taking Dig & Dig Jazz off the TV mux and use the data for TV program feeds. I agree that sound channels use less data than picture signals, however there are others who would like to keep 5.1 sound capability.

They currently use 395kbps on datacasting services that over 99.9% of viewers cannot use, which is enough for them to fit Dig Country in, but as I doubt g12345567 actually wanted to listen to the station, it isn't really important.

The post is more looking at the principles behind it.

As far as MPEG4 goes, the ABC3 program is for kids only and is not 24 hour/day. This will spur the manufacturers to include MPEG4 decoding so that MPEG4 will eventually be available for a switch over to all programs being transmitted in MPEG4 at a point in the future. This will eliminate the need for wasteful simulcasting. The benefit would be for example each station having a main program and a second program both in HD.

Even with MPEG4, two HD channels in 23Mbps is pushing it, especially if you want to maintain high quality. TVNZ has demonstrated this, running two 720p and Sports Extra, TVNZ6 and TVNZ7 in 576i SD. Now NZ have 8Mhz spacing, so that gives them extra space to work with, so ABC1/ABC2 in HD and ABC3 in SD would be using all the space, and from all reports, none of it will look all that impressive, and no one with a current receiver will be able to view any of it, which is shameful for the national broadcaster.

Now at what point are we better off? Replacing every STB in the country so that ABC2 can be in HD?

If that is not the point, then why not just show ABC3 in MPEG2 HD only? That requires no change in allocations and no reduction in quality, and will provide a picture to about 40% of set top boxes, and indeed all the Freeview ones. The existing HD multichannels have driven HD STB demand, increasing the install base. Would it not be a better use of bandwidth to serve nearly half of viewers rather than less than 1%?

Where does ABC1 HD go? Well the same place it has always been, not really existing. Most HD programming on ABC is children's programming, and during the ABC1, 2, 3 overlap times, ABC1 would be showing news. From 9:30 onwards ABC3 would schedule HD programs from the other two, which will more than satisfy the amount of HD content the ABC have in the first place.

[alanh]

Go for Moe,

I had commercial TV stations in mind, the ABC because of its extra channels. For the ABC its premier program stream ABC1 should be transmitted in HD and drop the ABC HD channel, ABC 2 would stay as SD as would ABC3. This can only be done if they are all transmitted in HD MPEG4. I am saying this would not happen until 2013. There is still 7 million digital receivers to be sold to just to equip each dwelling with one Digital receiver. The average home has more than one TV....

What datacasting are you talking about? If 3 "radio" channels takes 0.768 Mbit/s This is about 20 % of an SD program channel on the ABC MPEG2 multiplex.

ABC radio and most listeners expect radio to come from a portable receiver and not from a TV set which is stuck in a corner.

AlanH

[charlesc]

..I am saying this would not happen until 2013.

So are you saying it will happen in 2013?

Or do you mean it might happen sometime after 2013.

The beginning of 2014 is when all analogue should be off-air.

Did you perhaps mean 'until 2014' then? Or 'until the very end of 2013'?

I think even that timing for MPEG-4 only programs is pretty ambitious in reality.

[alanh]

Charles,

It will happen. The question is when. The logical time is when all of the markets have got digital transmission. So with the requirement for MPEG4 reception being specified now and 60 % of the audience buying these receivers prior to 2013, all of these receivers will be capable of receiving HD MPEG4 signals. Most dwellings have 2 or more TVs and with the superceeding of video cassette recorders most people will end up with MPEG4 receivers. MPEG4 decoding does not increase the price because of its use in all blu-ray players, HD receivers in Europe and NZ. It is also present in all HD satellite receivers including those used for Foxtel HD and the US HBO. It is also being used for a second channel added to USA's ASTC TV transmission.

The date will be when all analog TV is switched off to ensure the maximum number of MPEG4 receivers. By that time Digital TV has been transmitted in the major markets for 13 years.

As for being ambitious, look what happened to mobile phones. Analog to CDMA and then to 3G (NextG)

Alanh

[GoForMoe]

Go for Moe,

I had commercial TV stations in mind, the ABC because of its extra channels. For the ABC its premier program stream ABC1 should be transmitted in HD and drop the ABC HD channel, ABC 2 would stay as SD as would ABC3. This can only be done if they are all transmitted in HD MPEG4. I am saying this would not happen until 2013. There is still 7 million digital receivers to be sold to just to equip each dwelling with one Digital receiver. The average home has more than one TV....

You already have 1 HD and 2 SD, that is already happening without MPEG4.

The most expensive TV in the house is usually the one in the lounge room, which is replaced by now in most households with a relatively expensive one.

What datacasting are you talking about? If 3 "radio" channels takes 0.768 Mbit/s This is about 20 % of an SD program channel on the ABC MPEG2 multiplex.

The enhanced guide. It was covered when it first popped up http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=11354

In case you haven't figured it out, no one here is arguing that the Dig channels should stay, or that Dig Country should be added. They are just stating that the ABC says this:

No. The ABC has only a limited amount of spectrum allocated to it. Spectrum is essentially the amount of space we can fill up with broadcasting. There is a legislative requirement that the ABC broadcasts a certain amount of high definition TV each week, as well as the standard TV signal. The ABC has also chosen to have a second TV channel (ABC2 ) as well as dig and dig JAZZ. There is also some space set aside for program guide information. Altogether those services take up the ABC's entire spectrum allocation. Unfortunately there is no space left for dig COUNTRY.

http://www.abc.net.au/dig/about/#countrydtv

Regarding adding it, yet they claim there is perfectly enough bandwidth for ABC3. Now people were just trying to make a point about the sudden spectrum availability that appeared as soon as funding did.

ABC1 SD at 4.5Mbps, ABC2 SD at 4Mbps, ABC3 SD (with reduced horizontal resolution) at 3Mbps and ABC HD in 720p at 10Mbps is perfectly achievable with MPEG2. SBS currently average 4Mbps on their SD services, so that is not out of the question, and children's cartoons aren't going to suffer at 3Mbps. Use VBR as appropriate and you can get to roughly where we are now quality wise. It isn't ideal, but it is a lot more realistic and practical than your MPEG4 pipe dream, because ABC3 is going on air at the end of 2009 and you won't see MPEG4 OTA for many years after switchoff.

As for being ambitious, look what happened to mobile phones. Analog to CDMA and then to 3G (NextG)

Yep, and you know what? They had to have both for a long time, so you need an MPEG2/MPEG4 simulcast with every station repeated. Now that's not going to get any network happy.

It is also being used for a second channel added to USA's ASTC TV transmission.

Examples? They have certainly added second HD channels to ATSC in MPEG2, and several secondary SD channels in MPEG2. But I've not seen one report of OTA MPEG4 in the US.

MPEG4 decoding does not increase the price because of its use in all blu-ray players

A freeview endorsed STB retails for around $228 with MPEG4, an equivalent MPEG2 only one is under $100. I can think of one blu-ray/DVB box and it is over $1000.

Edited June 29, 2009 by GoForMoe

[DrP]

Yep, and you know what? They had to have both for a long time, so you need an MPEG2/MPEG4 simulcast with every station repeated. Now that's not going to get any network happy.

Resolution for resolution no. Contrary to theory posed by alanh, there is no need for a MPEG2 / MPEG4 simulcast period. If one considers the fact that eventually (some time post analogue turn off) MPEG4 capable equipment will be the majority, all that has to happen until then is services be transmitted as MPEG2. This of course means less services to maintain a given quality point. All MPEG4 AVC capable STBs on the market now can decode MPEG2 and this will not change in the future. When the MPEG4 STB population is sufficient the broadcasters 'flip the switch' and transmit the programs as MPEG4 AVC instead of MPEG2 resulting in either higher quality or more programming or a mix of the two. I wonder if the reality of the situation is finally reaching home. MPEG4 AVC broadcasts will not appear until most households can receive them. To do anything else from the commercial networks POV is nothing short of shooting oneself in the foot. ABC and SBS will no doubt follow suit, but for different reasons which have been stated many times already.

Examples? They have certainly added second HD channels to ATSC in MPEG2, and several secondary SD channels in MPEG2. But I've not seen one report of OTA MPEG4 in the US.

You aren't the only one that hasn't heard of it. Instant messages to several people I know in the USA reveals none of them have heard of it either. I suspect this is another case of alanh not reading the entire document. ATSC standardised MPEG4 AVC for transmission, in much the same way as DVB approved MPEG4 AVC in DVB-t/s/c*. This of course does not mean that such a transmission is actually in use, just that the potential for it exists. The 'sub' channels are currently transmitted using good old MPEG2.

_{*despite certain participants in this thread claiming it was not possible - MPEG4 AVC could only be transmitted via T2 and S2 if they were to be believed}

Edited June 29, 2009 by DrP

[alanh]

DrP,

The yanks are just getting over the total switch to digital. The stations will want to pay for their equipment prior to adding extra programs. The US do not use Logical channel numbers. They use the real channel number-mulitplex number.

For example channel 7-1.

The previous Director of Techology and Distribution has resigned a couple of weeks ago after 11 years in the post. It will be interesting to see what effect the new Engineering management do. So the end of the year with ABC3 will show how they think about new technolgies.

AlanH

[DrP]

DrP,

The yanks are just getting over the total switch to digital. The stations will want to pay for their equipment prior to adding extra programs. The US do not use Logical channel numbers. They use the real channel number-mulitplex number.

For example channel 7-1.

AlanH

How nice. Now what the hell does that have to do with what is being discussed here? You made a claim WRT ATSC transmissions in the USA and the claim has proven to be false. The '2nd' channels exist right now and they are very much MPEG2.

It is also being used for a second channel added to USA's ASTC TV transmission.

Edited June 29, 2009 by DrP

[GoForMoe]

DrP,

The yanks are just getting over the total switch to digital. The stations will want to pay for their equipment prior to adding extra programs. The US do not use Logical channel numbers. They use the real channel number-mulitplex number.

For example channel 7-1.

They can fake those channel numbers, as evidenced by networks using their 'heratige' channel number rather than the actual channel number. This aided finding channels post transition, especially as many shifted frequencies after analogue was turned off. So for practical purposes it is our system with a dash (or dot). 9-1 vs 91 is hardly a strong point of ATSC.

They are already providing numerous extra programs and have for ages.

The previous Director of Techology and Distribution has resigned a couple of weeks ago after 11 years in the post. It will be interesting to see what effect the new Engineering management do. So the end of the year with ABC3 will show how they think about new technolgies.

By broadcasting it in MPEG2.

[alanh]

DrP,

Since you never provide proof for your statements

A2

Note the date of issue.

AlanH

[GoForMoe]

DrP,

Since you never provide proof for your statements

A2

Note the date of issue.

AlanH

No one is disputing it being in the standard, we are disputing your assertion it is being broadcast currently. Show me a US broadcast station using MPEG4 with ATSC.

[alanh]

Q1234567,

ABC promorion

Go for Moe,

So you don't dispute the other locations?

AlanH

[GoForMoe]

Go for Moe,

So you don't dispute the other locations?

AlanH

Why would I? It is fact that NZ has MPEG4 and parts of Europe are either about to commence or are currently broadcasting as such. It is also fact that it is not being used in the US for ATSC OTA signals.

I take it you can't find a source for your claim that it is currently being used for subchannels in the US.

[alanh]

.

[alanh]

Go for Moe,

Mobile DTV comes to reality as well as the CES article.

AlanH

[DrP]

DrP,

Since you never provide proof for your statements

A2

Note the date of issue.

AlanH

You obviously did not comprehend what I posted. Please go back and read it again (and again) until you do.