jmos1503559753 Posted May 27, 2009 Posted May 27, 2009 Gday All, I have been researching different acoustic treatment options including DIY panels. I came across these Primacoustic products, made of fibreglass and supposed be denser than most of the foam panels ? It has been recommended that I start with the London 12A kit and add to. Has anyone used these products ? The London kit can be purchased through musiclab and Eastwoodhifi http://www.musiclab.com.au/(hqhuynbypbp2zb...=5&id=14013 http://www.eastwoodhifi.com.au/Prima-FullL...st-2009-093.pdf http://www.ambertech.com.au/files/articles...don-12a-EDS.pdf The kit doesn't seem to contain any bass traps though ? Any comments
Wavetrain Posted May 27, 2009 Posted May 27, 2009 jmos said: Gday All, I have been researching different acoustic treatment options including DIY panels.I came across these Primacoustic products, made of fibreglass and supposed be denser than most of the foam panels ? It has been recommended that I start with the London 12A kit and add to. Has anyone used these products ? The London kit can be purchased through musiclab and Eastwoodhifi http://www.musiclab.com.au/(hqhuynbypbp2zb...=5&id=14013 http://www.eastwoodhifi.com.au/Prima-FullL...st-2009-093.pdf http://www.ambertech.com.au/files/articles...don-12a-EDS.pdf The kit doesn't seem to contain any bass traps though ? Any comments Damn expensive for a absorption based only system, with no diffusion or true bass traps. As usuual you would either not treat the room correctly or over dampen the room. It is why every top designer users diffuser panels in their designs. The guys coming to Sydney GTG will be seeing these types of panels used correctly. These absorption only systems have their place as they are more affordable, but for those prices you could have the real deal. Very few systems deal with freqs below 100Hz and high density fibre material placed in the corner have a very limited absorption around 100Hz with the use of other mechanism such as membrane or helmholtz absorption. I know I use 132kg/m3 density board, which is custom made for me. Regards, David
jmos1503559753 Posted May 27, 2009 Author Posted May 27, 2009 (edited) wavetrain said: Damn expensive for a absorption based only system, with no diffusion or true bass traps. As usuual you would either not treat the room correctly or over dampen the room. It is why every top designer users diffuser panels in their designs. The guys coming to Sydney GTG will be seeing these types of panels used correctly.These absorption only systems have their place as they are more affordable, but for those prices you could have the real deal. Very few systems deal with freqs below 100Hz and high density fibre material placed in the corner have a very limited absorption around 100Hz with the use of other mechanism such as membrane or helmholtz absorption. I know I use 132kg/m3 density board, which is custom made for me. Regards, David Thanks for the reply. I thought it was a bit pricey. Its difficult to get good advice from alot of panel suppliers and even harder here in WA. The Sydney GTG sounds interesting, I hope plenty of pics will be posted. I received some advice fom soundacoustics.com.au and they suggested I start by using the BT120/80 or BT600/180 corner base traps for my front wall, floor to ceiling(he said the larger base trap 800mm wide would be better) and use 6 of the SA600/75 broadband acoustic panels for the sidewall first reflection points ? Not sure about the looks of these panels though. I'll checkout your website. Regards John Edited May 27, 2009 by jmos
RodN Posted May 27, 2009 Posted May 27, 2009 wavetrain said: Damn expensive for a absorption based only system, with no diffusion or true bass traps. As usuual you would either not treat the room correctly or over dampen the room. It is why every top designer users diffuser panels in their designs. The guys coming to Sydney GTG will be seeing these types of panels used correctly.These absorption only systems have their place as they are more affordable, but for those prices you could have the real deal. Very few systems deal with freqs below 100Hz and high density fibre material placed in the corner have a very limited absorption around 100Hz with the use of other mechanism such as membrane or helmholtz absorption. I know I use 132kg/m3 density board, which is custom made for me. Regards, David Hi David, Can you explain what type of material this board is? Is it supertight/compressed foam or some sort of fibre such as rockwool or polyester or fibreglass? It would also be interesting to hear what kind of applications you use it in, i.e as bass trapping how thick is it and how far across the corner you place it and how much better you think it is compared to products as mentioned above which do little under 120Hz. Cheers Rod
brodricj Posted May 28, 2009 Posted May 28, 2009 You have other options, such as this: http://www.ultrafonic.com.au/Fonic%20System.htm Made in Australia. Tailored acoustic solution for your application. Price is right. (Mods: I have no connexion with this company, other than being an end user customer).
Juicester Posted May 28, 2009 Posted May 28, 2009 shame the ultrafonic pack is so damned ugly though.
Wavetrain Posted May 28, 2009 Posted May 28, 2009 RodN said: Hi David,Can you explain what type of material this board is? Is it supertight/compressed foam or some sort of fibre such as rockwool or polyester or fibreglass? It would also be interesting to hear what kind of applications you use it in, i.e as bass trapping how thick is it and how far across the corner you place it and how much better you think it is compared to products as mentioned above which do little under 120Hz. Cheers Rod I am flat chat getting ready for the GTG. I'll get back to this when I have more time. Regards, David
RodN Posted May 28, 2009 Posted May 28, 2009 (edited) MarkH said: Welcome back RodN! Hey hey Mark long time no type hehe yes I couldn't keep the hobby at bay forever. Thanks David have fun at the GTG I know how much work goes into them behind the scenes and hope that everyone appreciates it! Edited May 28, 2009 by RodN
Simon101503560766 Posted May 28, 2009 Posted May 28, 2009 I've purchased from these guys before. Bought 8 panels and 2 bass traps. I know there not high end and you can get solid foam panels which I've been told are more effective but cost alot more: http://soundacoustics.com.au/Content/sound...nce-innovation/ I also purchased 2 diffusor panels from the HAA guy for the rear wall but they weren't cheap approx $320 for 2 panels. Would love to afford ceiling panels of the similar type but it cost a few dollars and I would require quite a few. http://www.acousticvision.com.au/
cinema mad Posted May 28, 2009 Posted May 28, 2009 (edited) RodN said: Hi David,Can you explain what type of material this board is? Is it supertight/compressed foam or some sort of fibre such as rockwool or polyester or fibreglass? It would also be interesting to hear what kind of applications you use it in, i.e as bass trapping how thick is it and how far across the corner you place it and how much better you think it is compared to products as mentioned above which do little under 120Hz. Cheers Rod Hi Rod, CSR Bradfords have 130kg/m3 high density fiberglass board 1200x2400x25mm 2 per pack called Quietel "not cheap though".. you just double it up and place it in the corners.. The trade off with using higher density board is the less absorbtion at higher frequencey, so no good using Quietel for treating first reflections.. For my BroadBand bass traps (velocity absorber) I use CSR Bradfords Ultratel 50mm thick 48Kg/m3, 3pcf,1200x2400 sheet's as the absorbtion membrane... I make them 150mm thick and place them in the corners floor to ceiling, By placing them in the corners It won't make it absorb more, it will make it absorb better, deeper down into the bass which is what we are after... Also you can use the 130Kg/m3 Quietel placed behined the Ultratel 48Kg/m3 to allow for even lower frequency bass absorbtion... I am going to experiment with my rear corner mounted floor to Ceiling broadband bass traps two ways,, first Putting 50mm 135Kg/M3 Quietel behined 100mm of 48Kg/M3 ultratel corner mounted... 2, using 100mm of 48Kg/M3 ultratel corner mounted with the 135Kg/m3 Quietel mounted directly to the wall behined the Ultratel (so 100mm Ultratel stradling corner > air gap > 50mm Quietel > Plaster wall)... and use Acoustisofts RplusD Modal Analyzer software to measure/analyze the performance of both these methods mentioned above... Cheers.... Edited May 28, 2009 by cinema mad
RodN Posted May 28, 2009 Posted May 28, 2009 cinema mad said: Hi Rod, CSR Bradfords have 130kg/m3 high density fiberglass board 1200x2400x25mm 2 per pack called Quietel "not cheap though".. you just double it up and place it in the corners.. The trade off with using higher density board is the less absorbtion at higher frequencey, so no good using Quietel for treating first reflections.. For my BroadBand bass traps (velocity absorber) I use CSR Bradfords Ultratel 50mm thick 48Kg/m3, 3pcf,1200x2400 sheet's as the absorbtion membrane... I make them 150mm thick and place them in the corners floor to ceiling, By placing them in the corners It won't make it absorb more, it will make it absorb better, deeper down into the bass which is what we are after... Also you can use the 130Kg/m3 Quietel placed behined the Ultratel 48Kg/m3 to allow for even lower frequency bass absorbtion... I am going to experiment with my rear corner mounted floor to Ceiling broadband bass traps two ways,, first Putting 50mm 135Kg/M3 Quietel behined 100mm of 48Kg/M3 ultratel corner mounted... 2, using 100mm of 48Kg/M3 ultratel corner mounted with the 135Kg/m3 Quietel mounted directly to the wall behined the Ultratel (so 100mm Ultratel stradling corner > air gap > 50mm Quietel > Plaster wall)... and use Acoustisofts RplusD Modal Analyzer software to measure/analyze the performance of both these methods mentioned above... Cheers.... Thanks for that I'm currently using 200mm thick (doubled up) rockwool bats but believe with your technique you'll get some better results due to variable densities of materials as well as use of air gaps a bit more effectively (i.e I have a single air gap of about 200mm). I've found with this that all it has done has moved about where the bass issues are rather than permanently remove them. I would like to do a spectral analysis though as I feel the bass tightened up somewhat with less overhang so the main benefits for me have so far been better tightening of bass rather than removal of bass nodes. I'll be interested to hear what Dave is using too when he's had a rest from his gtg activities.
jmos1503559753 Posted May 29, 2009 Author Posted May 29, 2009 Very interesting info. If possible it would be great to see pictures of your rooms and the panels your using Rod, Cinema and Simon. I look forward to Wavetrains recommendations as well.
Simon101503560766 Posted June 1, 2009 Posted June 1, 2009 Here are some photos of 2 panels I have up: http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=78986
Drizt Posted June 1, 2009 Posted June 1, 2009 RodN said: ... Welcome back mate, haven't seen or heard from you in what seems like forever. Hope you have been well.
Wavetrain Posted June 1, 2009 Posted June 1, 2009 RodN said: Hi David,Can you explain what type of material this board is? Is it supertight/compressed foam or some sort of fibre such as rockwool or polyester or fibreglass? It would also be interesting to hear what kind of applications you use it in, i.e as bass trapping how thick is it and how far across the corner you place it and how much better you think it is compared to products as mentioned above which do little under 120Hz. Cheers Rod Hi Rod, I use the product as a general 1st reflection material. I do also use it in various products designed to extend the effective freq range beyond 200Hz. The worst thing you can do in a room is over dampen it. The reason I have so many different products is that many are designed to absorb specific freqs and not others. For instance you need a lot of bass absorption to make a difference, but if the treatment is all absorptive, then you treat 1st reflections and slap echo, then you have over damped the room. All absorptive materials struggle to be effective below around 200hz. Quietel mentioned has a co efficient of absorption of 0.36 @ 50m thickness at 125Hz free field. The problem is that all absorptive material works by the moving air particles, exciting the material and turning the energy to heat. The problem is that as sound waves approach a wall, they are slowing down. The maximum absorption takes place at approx the 1/4 wavelength. 345Hz has a wavelength of 1m, so the material would need to be 250mm off the wall for max absorption. For 172Hz, the wavelength is 2m, so the material would need to be 500m off the wall and so on. From this you can see that placing absorptive material in the corner helps by moving the material away from the wall. However, even free field the material doesn't absorb very well at low freq. For those thinking foam is better, it is not. Glass fibre is the best material for absorption on the market. If people have the space at the front of the room to give up, then what Cinema Mad has suggested is a cheap way to lower the freq range of absorption, but from experience, this will only woork down to around 150Hz. certainly not into the sub freqs. Adding lots more material close to the wall is not going to improve things much for obvious reasons; the particles aren’t moving. So up against walls and corners are areas of low velocity, but areas of high pressure (ie the bass is loud near the walls). Therefore the best way to absorb bass near walls is to use devices that convert high pressure to high velocity, such as membrane and Helmholtz traps. These devices allow you to absorb right down into the sub freqs. We haven't even touched on diffuser panels. This is why we now have approx 30 acoustic products in our range and custom build panels as required. It is not the simple answer, but the only correct one. Hope that helps. Regards, David
RodN Posted June 1, 2009 Posted June 1, 2009 wavetrain said: Hope that helps.Regards, David Hi David, A very detailed answer thanks for that. As with my own thoughts the only real answer for in/room issues below 100 hz is helmholtz resonators. I was thinking of building a few a while back I might try just knocking a few corner units up in crappy mdf and see if they work.
RodN Posted June 1, 2009 Posted June 1, 2009 Drizt said: Welcome back mate, haven't seen or heard from you in what seems like forever. Hope you have been well. Hey Drizt nice to hear from ya mate, hope all is well in the new home with J.
huggy Posted June 1, 2009 Posted June 1, 2009 Interesting read,I've been considering upgrading my audio which is realively new,especially the centre and sub.But I'm wondering whether it's a better idea to spend some money on room treatments and make the most of the equipment I have,hence may feel I dont need to upgrade. I'm more a videophile than audio,I've spent many hours getting the most out of my 9" crt,but am now turning my attention to improving audio. How does one even know what treatments to place where?or is there a mob that will do the design and recommend treatments accordingly?How much coin should I be investing?
Simon101503560766 Posted June 2, 2009 Posted June 2, 2009 Well Huggy I used this company: http://www.acousticvision.com.au/ I believe Franin has used their services as well and purchased some accoustic panels from them. Basically the guys are HAA certified (read on their site for more info) and they bring some pretty serious equipment over with a nice microphone array (setup) and run some sound tests and can produce graphs that show the frequencies in your room and where the problems are. From there they recommmned the treatments that can improve the room. But that's where things can get expensive as the panels aren't cheap but there some of the best you can buy. Have a read on their site and perhaps speak to one of the guys there. I deal with Gordon and his based in Melbourne so he should be your first contact.
ldu Posted June 2, 2009 Posted June 2, 2009 Not cheap but as always I guess you get what you pay for: http://www.acousticvision.com.au/WhatsNew/...33/Default.aspx Does anyone know how much their AV100 fabric costs. I am thinking of making up some door panels with this fabric as I want to print directly onto it - acoustic transparency is not a requirement in this case. http://www.acousticvision.com.au/Fabrics/A...92/Default.aspx
MACCA350 Posted June 2, 2009 Posted June 2, 2009 If you're after something a little arty, Gordon has a new range called Acoustic ART cheers
Simon101503560766 Posted June 2, 2009 Posted June 2, 2009 (edited) Quote Not cheap but as always I guess you get what you pay for As I mentioned above things can get expensive and that link you provided is a complete accoustic panel setup. Some people may not require such an elaborate treatment for their room. I for one couldn't afford that offer and Gordon has acknowledged this and has recommended options based on my budget. Of course if money wasn't an issue then you could simply go nuts and that applies to HT equipment. I guess some people forget just how important room treatment is and are only too happy dropping say for example $8000+ on a pre-pro or $4000+ on an amp without addressing the room itself. Compared to the equipment side accoustic treatments can be cheaper but again it depends how far your willing to go. For me the room treatments that I currently have have made a significant improvement. *Edited for spelling* Edited June 2, 2009 by Simon10
ldu Posted June 2, 2009 Posted June 2, 2009 MACCA350 said: If you're after something a little arty, Gordon has a new range called Acoustic ARTcheers Yes but I want to print my own design and then stretch the fabric over a custom made door frame.
Recommended Posts