Shame List - Bad Redbook CD transfers.

[Big A2]

I really felt I needed to say that it's extremely unfair to go bashing mastering engineers for shocking mastering jobs.

In every case, it's the customer who gets the last say, so if Band X wants Engineer Y to make their album as loud as possible, then that's what they get, even if the same mastering engineer did the fantastic remasters of The Rolling Stones (Bob Ludwig) or Pink Floyd (Doug Sax) catalogue. In those remasters, ABKCO or EMI or whatever wanted the mastering engineer to preserve the dynamic range of the original master tape, so that’s what they got. You don’t judge a slave for what its master tells it to do.

So blame the artists and labels, and have sympathy for the mastering engineers, who have to put up with this **** even more than us listeners. They have families to feed.

[Adam]

I really felt I needed to say that it's extremely unfair to go bashing mastering engineers for shocking mastering jobs.

In every case, it's the customer who gets the last say, so if Band X wants Engineer Y to make their album as loud as possible, then that's what they get, even if the same mastering engineer did the fantastic remasters of The Rolling Stones (Bob Ludwig) or Pink Floyd (Doug Sax) catalogue. In those remasters, ABKCO or EMI or whatever wanted the mastering engineer to preserve the dynamic range of the original master tape, so that’s what they got. You don’t judge a slave for what its master tells it to do.

So blame the artists and labels, and have sympathy for the mastering engineers, who have to put up with this **** even more than us listeners. They have families to feed.

I don't buy this. If you do anything in the music industry for money, you're in the wrong place. They should do it because they have a passion for it.

And besides your two problems are fixing themselves slowly. Labels will be non-existent in a decade or two, and artists are generally getting a bit smarter when it comes to knowing that loud =/= attention.

[proftournesol]

Whilst I agree with you to an extent Adam the 2 things aren't mutually exclusive. You need to be in it for the passion, but it's also good to be able to eat and afford somewhere to live!

[wolster]

I really felt I needed to say that it's extremely unfair to go bashing mastering engineers for shocking mastering jobs.

In every case, it's the customer who gets the last say, so if Band X wants Engineer Y to make their album as loud as possible, then that's what they get, even if the same mastering engineer did the fantastic remasters of The Rolling Stones (Bob Ludwig) or Pink Floyd (Doug Sax) catalogue. In those remasters, ABKCO or EMI or whatever wanted the mastering engineer to preserve the dynamic range of the original master tape, so that’s what they got. You don’t judge a slave for what its master tells it to do.

So blame the artists and labels, and have sympathy for the mastering engineers, who have to put up with this **** even more than us listeners. They have families to feed.

Welcome to SNA, Big A2. Nothing like jumping in feet first :-)

Like the Prof, I think you have a valid argument but wonder how much the engineers attempt put the case for better quality.

Cheers

wolster

[Big A2]

Here's a video where Greg Calbi talking about he's experiences:

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.

As Greg mentions at the end, engines will always try to explain the trade-offs of having something loud. Greg's mastered some of the horrible sounding discs mentioned in this thread, but he also did most of the 2003-05 Bob Dylan remasters, which are a big improvement over the old CDs (except for John Wesley Harding, but that’s another story). If the engineer refuses to make things loud and destroy the dynamics, then the client can just get someone else to do it. At the end of the day, it really depends on what the client wants. It's sad, I know, but the point is, I was very disappointed to see people picking on engineers like Bob Ludwig and Doug Sax who can produce fantastic sounding CDs, when they're allowed to.

[Sentient]

As Greg mentions at the end, engines will always try to explain the trade-offs of having something loud. Greg's mastered some of the horrible sounding discs mentioned in this thread, but he also did most of the 2003-05 Bob Dylan remasters, which are a big improvement over the old CDs (except for John Wesley Harding, but that’s another story). If the engineer refuses to make things loud and destroy the dynamics, then the client can just get someone else to do it. At the end of the day, it really depends on what the client wants. It's sad, I know, but the point is, I was very disappointed to see people picking on engineers like Bob Ludwig and Doug Sax who can produce fantastic sounding CDs, when they're allowed to.

Hi A2, welcome to the forum, and thanks for the video, I enjoyed it.

This is the single biggest problem in the music industry, that is impacting lovers of well recorded music, and is something I'm really passionate about raising the awareness of the problem. You've raised some excellent points.

In Greg's video, he talks about fatigue, and how this just didnt exist in the 70's and 80's. [sighs] It's so true. Greg closes his clip by saying "if loud and fast is something you really want to do, then OK, there are some engineers who do it really well". He's essentially acknowledging that there are mastering engineers who are known for their work in over compressing music.

I too point the finger at the studio execs who want the cd's mastered this way, there is no doubt that these faceless people are the root cause of this problem. I also hold the artists accountable for what happens to the music, after it leaves the studio. But, that said, the mastering engineers put their name to the release as being responsible for doing the master.

I have little sympathy for the engineers you mention. Doug Sax is *not* struggling to put food on the table. He's very well known, and very busy (as is Ludwig). Doug was so busy, and came at such a high cost, that he was selectively used on Guy Sebastian's "Like it like that" 2009 release (they used him for 4 tracks on the cd, and those 4 tracks were compressed to buggery).

Click- Scans of the mentioned album

I contacted Guy about this CD, and he responded. He wasnt aware of the issue, and thanked me for pointing it out. Just goes to show, that artists are putting complete faith in the studios and engineers on stuff like this.

Why would Doug put his reputation on the line like this, when he's already made a name for himself and is making plenty of money? I can understand those mastering companies and engineers who are trying desperately to get work. But when it comes to big names like Sax and Ludwig, there is no excuse for this. They are part of the problem, IMHO. When they are already rich, and famous, their reputations are what matters - you'd think they would show some integrity, and master the music to sound great in all cases?

[jamesg11]

Sorry ozmillsy, I missed this a while back. Yep, both tracks sourced off same "Jack Johnson" cd (direct cd rip, in addition to hdcd.exe extraction) - found this info on dr.loudness-war.info site. None of my other cds have any embedded hdcd info, as far as I can find.

[Sentient]

Sorry ozmillsy, I missed this a while back. Yep, both tracks sourced off same "Jack Johnson" cd (direct cd rip, in addition to hdcd.exe extraction) - found this info on dr.loudness-war.info site. None of my other cds have any embedded hdcd info, as far as I can find.

Interesting, I'm sure I have a couple of HDCD's in my collection. I'll have to go looking for them, and try the HDCD extraction.

[Sentient]

Artist: Pendulum

Album: Immersion

Track: 4, Set Me On Fire

Mastered by: Brian 'Big Bass' Gardner at Brian Gardner Mastering

Label/Studio: Warner Music UK

Year: 2010

DR Rating Track: DR4

DR Rating Album: DR5 > DR Database 5191

Again, the scan isnt an absolute horror (no clips, within limits), but a DR rating of 5 for the whole album demonstrates massive compression and puts it up near the top of the Shamelist....

[Sentient]

Brian 'Big Bass' Gardner

Another honourary entry has been made to the Rogues Gallery, with 6 acknowledgments in this thread so far.

Mr 'Big Bass' has hundreds of mastering efforts to his name, according to wiki/discogs:

click-www.discogs.com-BigBass

By my count, there is over 40 albums mastered by BigBass in 2010 (according to the list on Discogs). He's a busy busy man!

I noticed that in the opening post, he was previously working at Bernie Grundman Mastering studios, but he's doing so well for himself he's now operating his own mastering studio if the credits on the latest Pendulum cd are anything to go by. He's hardly on the poverty line !!!

Oh, and checkout this pic he's had done for himself. Obviously he takes pride in mastering music as loud as it can go, if those needles are any indication.

If you want your music compressed to buggery, Brian 'Big Bass' Gardner will strangle the life out of it for you!

Found this link while googling, where the band employed 'Big Bass' to do their mastering. Here's a quote:

Mastering is the last stage usually, well next to the last stage(to put some final eq polish, compress, limit and help the stereo image, make it louder so it translates better on cheap systems like ipods and pc speakers). To get it done right, it will cost you a lot of money usually.

http://www.velvetacidchrist.com/2009/07/27/mastering-the-art-of-breaking-apart/

I have no idea who Velvet Acid Christ are, but they wont be getting any of my money.

Edited December 27, 2010 by ozmillsy

[amdan]

Interesting thread. I notice that Bob Ludwig is in the shame list. Which remasters qualified him for this dishonour? I quite liked his work on the Roxy Music - Flesh & Blood and Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms remasters.

[Sentient]

Interesting thread. I notice that Bob Ludwig is in the shame list. Which remasters qualified him for this dishonour? I quite liked his work on the Roxy Music - Flesh & Blood and Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms remasters.

Bob Ludwig has been around for decades, and is responsible for some great masters (as I understand). But his name is against some compressed releases, doing a quick scan through the thread I found these, which are not as horrible as some atrocities in this thread - but they are compressed;

http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/showthread.php/17410-Shame-List-Bad-Redbook-CD-transfers?p=264003&viewfull=1#post264003

http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/showthread.php/17410-Shame-List-Bad-Redbook-CD-transfers?p=265174&viewfull=1#post265174

http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/showthread.php/17410-Shame-List-Bad-Redbook-CD-transfers?p=265294&viewfull=1#post265294

http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/showthread.php/17410-Shame-List-Bad-Redbook-CD-transfers?p=267057&viewfull=1#post267057

The last 1 is a scan of the cd layer of the sacd hybrid for the Brothers in Arms remaster, not horrible, but it's compressed. But wait, he's also credited with mastering the dvd-a (that I own), and this 1 looks really bad (cd layer)-

http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/showthread.php/17410-Shame-List-Bad-Redbook-CD-transfers?p=267378&viewfull=1#post267378

Edited December 30, 2010 by ozmillsy

[amdan]

Bob Ludwig has been around for decades, and is responsible for some great masters (as I understand). But his name is against some compressed releases, doing a quick scan through the thread I found these, which are not as horrible as some atrocities in this thread - but they are compressed;

http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/showthread.php/17410-Shame-List-Bad-Redbook-CD-transfers?p=264003&viewfull=1#post264003

http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/showthread.php/17410-Shame-List-Bad-Redbook-CD-transfers?p=265174&viewfull=1#post265174

http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/showthread.php/17410-Shame-List-Bad-Redbook-CD-transfers?p=265294&viewfull=1#post265294

http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/showthread.php/17410-Shame-List-Bad-Redbook-CD-transfers?p=267057&viewfull=1#post267057

The last 1 is a scan of the cd layer of the sacd hybrid for the Brothers in Arms remaster, not horrible, but it's compressed. But wait, he's also credited with mastering the dvd-a (that I own), and this 1 looks really bad (cd layer)-

http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/showthread.php/17410-Shame-List-Bad-Redbook-CD-transfers?p=267378&viewfull=1#post267378

Thanks. Does the DVD you own sound very compressed. I wonder how bad these CDs which look highly compressed on the scans sound.

[Sentient]

Thanks. Does the DVD you own sound very compressed. I wonder how bad these CDs which look highly compressed on the scans sound.

The hi-res dvd-audio side sounds brilliant. The CD side is ok, but if I turn the wick up, gets fatiguing very quickly.

[Sentient]

Another recent release....

Artist: Linkin Park

Album: A Thousand Suns

Track: 8, Waiting For The End

Mastered by: Vlado Meller (click) at Universal Mastering Studios, NYC

Label/Studio: Warner Brothers Records

Year: 2010

DR Rating Track: DR4

DR Rating Album: DR7 > DR Database 7336

Plenty of clips and artificial compression on this track.

Edited January 10, 2011 by ozmillsy

[Kid A]

Metallica's Death Magnetic should be called Mastered By Puppets.

[Sentient]

Interesting, I'm sure I have a couple of HDCD's in my collection. I'll have to go looking for them, and try the HDCD extraction.

I've been digging around my collection for HDCD's, I found a few - all were pretty good masters, and didnt show any compression on their scans. I picked up some 2nd hand discs off sna recently that are hdcd's . And I found 1 that was compressed. Roxy Music - Avalon, remastered in 1999 by Mr Ludwig.

Before I post the scans, I was doing some reading on HDCD.exe , and found that it puts 20bit data into a 24bit file - when we scan this file it will look like its well within limits - because there is 4 bits of emptiness. OK, so if we look at the scan of the HDCD file closely, it still shows artificial compression. So, on this particular title/disc, I dont think the mastering is any different between the CD data and the HDCD data.

Roxy Music - 1999 Remaster - Analysis of 16bit WAV file extract, track 1.

Roxy Music - 1999 Remaster - Analysis of HDCD file extract, track 1.

Roxy Music - 2003 Remaster - Analysis of SACD - CD layer, track 1.

Roxy Music - 1982 Target (West German) - Analysis of track 1.

Details of 1999 remaster:-

Artist: Roxy Music

Album: Avalon (remastered edition)

Track: 1, More Than This

Mastered by: Bob Ludwig at Gateway Studio

Label/Studio: Virgin Records

Year: 1999

DR Rating Track: DR7

DR Rating Album: DR9 > DR Database 7378

Edited January 24, 2011 by ozmillsy

[eltech]

Here is another one for you. Van Halen self titled 1978, and the remaster done a few years ago

Its self apparent which one is the loudness war remaster. The clipping is so bad this album gives a headache after the first song.

The tracks shown are "Ain't talkin 'bout love" but obviously all tracks on the album are this bad....

[ATTACH=CONFIG]27932[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]27933[/ATTACH]

[Sentient]

Here is another one for you. Van Halen self titled 1978, and the remaster done a few years ago

Its self apparent which one is the loudness war remaster. The clipping is so bad this album gives a headache after the first song.

The tracks shown are "Ain't talkin 'bout love" but obviously all tracks on the album are this bad....

[ATTACH=CONFIG]27932[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]27933[/ATTACH]

Nice work sharing this. If you have the CD insert, can you check who is credited with the mastering of the compressed version? If you provide all the album details, I'll add it to the masterlist in the opening post.

[eltech]

Its the Warner remasters. release number on the spine 9362477372

Year 2000.

on the inside sleeve it says remastered by "Chris Bellman at Bernie Grundman's and Robbes"

Just read up about Chis Bellman here: http://www.berniegrundmanmastering.com/engineers/bellman.html

Quote:"Chris Bellman began his audiophile interests at an early age"

Appears to have forgotten them at a later stage, or perhaps he was just following instructions. Its such a wasted opportunity, when they actually get the studio time to do a remaster and then the wreck it so badly.

I also noticed that you can send them an email on that website above. I am very tempted to ask Chris for an explanation for the abomination.

Edited January 13, 2011 by eltech

[eltech]

I have more to share with you as well.....

[Sentient]

I have more to share with you as well.....

thanks for the details, freaking Bernie Grundman mastering studios has produced alot of compressed masters. I think they school their engineers on how to get music really loud.

I've updated the OP with a reference to this Van Halen remaster and a link your post. It's good if the pressing and mastering details are in the same post as the scans, so when people follow the links in the OP they go straight to all the details.

Good work, keep them coming if you find some more bad ones. The remaster section of the OP really should have a longer list than it does.

Edited January 13, 2011 by ozmillsy

[captaineos]

Two great examples.

Phil Collins - No Jacket Required - Purchased from iTunes store then converted to WAV for analysis.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Analyzed folder: C:\Phil Collins - No Jacket Required\

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR Peak RMS Filename

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR16 -0.01 dB -17.50 dB 01 Sussudio.wav

DR14 -1.55 dB -17.72 dB 02 Only You Know and I Know.wav

DR12 -5.83 dB -20.89 dB 03 Long Long Way to Go.wav

DR14 -0.10 dB -16.17 dB 04 I Don't Wanna Know.wav

DR14 -4.55 dB -20.14 dB 05 One More Night.wav

DR14 -0.00 dB -16.28 dB 06 Don't Lose My Number.wav

DR14 -2.17 dB -17.85 dB 07 Who Said I Would.wav

DR16 -0.20 dB -18.87 dB 08 Doesn't Anybody Stay Together Any.wav

DR14 -0.09 dB -17.69 dB 09 Inside Out.wav

DR14 -2.96 dB -19.98 dB 10 Take Me Home.wav

DR15 -1.41 dB -21.45 dB 11 We Said Hello Goodbye.wav

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of files: 11

Official DR value: DR14

==============================================================================================

[captaineos]

Jack Johnson - To the Sea - Purchased from iTunes store then converted to WAV for analysis.

Mastered By - Bernie Grundman , Robert Caranza* (tracks: 14)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Analyzed folder: F:\My Music\Jack Johnson\To the Sea\WAV\

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR Peak RMS Filename

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR7 over -8.71 dB 01 You and Your Heart.wav

DR8 -0.04 dB -9.94 dB 02 To the Sea.wav

DR8 -0.26 dB -11.35 dB 03 No Good With Faces.wav

DR7 over -9.83 dB 04 At or With Me.wav

DR13 -0.25 dB -16.61 dB 05 When I Look Up.wav

DR8 over -9.37 dB 06 from the Clouds.wav

DR14 -0.42 dB -17.22 dB 07 My Little Girl.wav

DR9 -0.01 dB -11.02 dB 08 Turn Your Love.wav

DR8 -0.00 dB -9.51 dB 09 The Upsetter.wav

DR8 -0.12 dB -9.87 dB 10 Red Wine, Mistakes, Mythology.wav

DR8 -0.17 dB -10.56 dB 11 Pictures of People Taking Picture.wav

DR13 -0.34 dB -15.91 dB 12 Anything But the Truth.wav

DR8 -0.19 dB -10.12 dB 13 Only the Ocean.wav

DR11 -0.20 dB -13.97 dB 14 Better Together.wav

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of files: 14

Official DR value: DR9

==============================================================================================

Edited January 23, 2011 by captaineos

[Sentient]

Thanks Capn ! The Phil Collins one looks good.