Aircon Posted November 27, 2003 Posted November 27, 2003 Tonight I went to JB HIFI in Camberwell. Now let me preface this by saying I have NO clue technically, but...they had the 60" 52" and 44" LCD LG TVs and the Samsung 50" LCD sitting right next to a 50" Pioneer Plasma. As good as the LCD's were (personally, I preferred either the 60" LCD or 44" DLP LGs out of the LCDs on display) if money was no object the Plasma was visibly clearer, had better colour and was almost 3D like in appearance...almost like being there.
KWilliamMa Posted November 27, 2003 Posted November 27, 2003 Agreed. I have had the opportunity to see many Plasma screens side by side with other Plasmas and LCDs in Singapore, and must say that Plasmas still look far better and more natural than LCDs. The colors produced by LCDs are overly brightly and unnatural. With fast moving images and scenes, LCDs still lack the crispness and clarity that Plasmas produce. LCDs, however, have come a long way since it's first inception. Unless you plan to use the screen mostly for computer applications, of which static images and text are important, then Plasmas should be the first consideration. Also, the cost of Plasma is much lower than a similarly sized LCD screen. K William Ma
Aircon Posted November 27, 2003 Author Posted November 27, 2003 Agreed. I have had the opportunity to see many Plasma screens side by side with other Plasmas and LCDs in Singapore, and must say that Plasmas still look far better and more natural than LCDs. The colors produced by LCDs are overly brightly and unnatural. With fast moving images and scenes, LCDs still lack the crispness and clarity that Plasmas produce. LCDs, however, have come a long way since it's first inception.Unless you plan to use the screen mostly for computer applications, of which static images and text are important, then Plasmas should be the first consideration. Also, the cost of Plasma is much lower than a similarly sized LCD screen. K William Ma The "LCD" screens I saw are rear projector type screens. I've never actually worked out why they call them LCD, but that's another story altogether.
Timmy Downawell Posted November 27, 2003 Posted November 27, 2003 Most plasma screens I see on display have the Nine HD demo loop running on them and look absolutely dreadful. I don't know whether they've been set up incorrectly (i.e. what inputs they're using etc) but they don't even come close to the CRTs in store. I look at them in despair and wonder who would buy them. Some have animations such as Monsters Inc running on them and they invariably look better... but it seems to me when you see the scenes of the sun shining on the water in the HD loop in particular that plasma cannot come close to a good CRT. But if people are willing to throw away twice as much for a thin, trendy plasma screen to impress their friends I suppose that's their problem.
mungo brush Posted November 27, 2003 Posted November 27, 2003 plasma cannot come close to a good CRT.But if people are willing to throw away twice as much for a thin, trendy plasma screen to impress their friends I suppose that's their problem. Yes, Timmy, I agree. My opinion of picture quality ... 1 CRT by miles 2 Plasma 3 RPTV (way behind) Problem is that largest CRT is only 86cm. For the same price range ($5k-$7k) as a HD CRT (like the Sony) you can get a 106cm SD Plasma. Not a hard decision for you maybe, but the 86cm isn't much of an upgrade in size for me (from a 68cm 4:3). Nothing to do with trends or impressing friends, here. I'm the one who wants to be impressed. For many years to come!
IanSav Posted November 28, 2003 Posted November 28, 2003 Hi Mungo Brush, plasma cannot come close to a good CRT.But if people are willing to throw away twice as much for a thin, trendy plasma screen to impress their friends I suppose that's their problem. Problem is that largest CRT is only 86cm. For the same price range ($5k-$7k) as a HD CRT (like the Sony) you can get a 106cm SD Plasma. Not a hard decision for you maybe, but the 86cm isn't much of an upgrade in size for me (from a 68cm 4:3). Nothing to do with trends or impressing friends, here. I'm the one who wants to be impressed. For many years to come! May I suggest that you go with the Sony for your day to day viewing and look at a front projector for your "special event" viewing. You get a bright, clear and easy to use CRT for your regular viewing and as big an image as you can project for your features. The cost would still be comparable to, or maybe even lower than, a single higher resolution plasma and you don't suffer any of the compromises (screen burn, muddy blacks etc). (From a new owner of the Sony with access to an ASK DLP projector.) Regards, Ian.
chris29579 Posted November 28, 2003 Posted November 28, 2003 Most plasma screens I see on display have the Nine HD demo loop running on them and look absolutely dreadful. I don't know whether they've been set up incorrectly (i.e. what inputs they're using etc) but they don't even come close to the CRTs in store. I look at them in despair and wonder who would buy them. Some have animations such as Monsters Inc running on them and they invariably look better... but it seems to me when you see the scenes of the sun shining on the water in the HD loop in particular that plasma cannot come close to a good CRT. But if people are willing to throw away twice as much for a thin, trendy plasma screen to impress their friends I suppose that's their problem. Was watching a bit of 2 Fast 2 Furious on the JVC, $6999 plasma yesterday, it shat all over crt tv's. Watch a dvd on a plasma and you wont be thinking about the hd stuff, which does look a little pixelated. These plasmas I saw yday were up on the wall, at viewing distance (normally you are way too close to them when in a sotre). The JVC was the best I saw there, not sure if it is the full hd set or not, but it looked great. Best thing is, no geometry issues on plasma. And if you are sitting therequired distance away, I dont think youd notice blown pixels.
Alphabrat Posted November 28, 2003 Posted November 28, 2003 And if you are sitting therequired distance away, I dont think youd notice blown pixels. I walked into a store recently and looked at a bunch of plasmas on the wall and the one with the blown pixel stood out like a nipple. It had frozen on bright yellow and I couldn't take my eyes off it. If I had that at home I'd be going crazy. Maybe getting a black pen and trying to colour it in. Oh, I'd notice it all right.
marshall1503559584 Posted November 29, 2003 Posted November 29, 2003 My opinion of picture quality ...1 CRT by miles 2 Plasma 3 RPTV (way behind) Problem is that largest CRT is only 86cm. http://www.plasmatvguide.com/crtvsplasma.htm Once you have a decent plasma (not an LG) on your wall; there is no going back to CRT. Don't use the poorly setup displays in the stores as a guide.
marshall1503559584 Posted November 29, 2003 Posted November 29, 2003 I look at them in despair and wonder who would buy them...plasma cannot come close to a good CRT.But if people are willing to throw away twice as much for a thin, trendy plasma screen to impress their friends I suppose that's their problem. spoken like someone who'd never had any experience with Plasmas and clearly never had the chance to set one up in your living room. What makes you think people who buys plasmas are to impress their friends? That's a very simple minded comment lacking substance, with a touch of enviousness in it. My "50 Pioneer is purely for my viewing pleasure.
marshall1503559584 Posted November 29, 2003 Posted November 29, 2003 Was watching a bit of 2 Fast 2 Furious on the JVC, $6999 plasma yesterday, it shat all over crt tv's. Agreed, there is no way my Lowe CRT comes close to my Pioneer plasma. Also the JVC ("42) you saw at the store is a NEC rebadged - a very good unit. The "50 is a Panasonic rebadge, consider the JVC and save a few $$ on other the brands (NEC & Panasonic) next time you want to buy a plasma.
Dropbear1503559515 Posted November 29, 2003 Posted November 29, 2003 all this just goes to show that it's entirely subjective... I would put a GOOD plasma above a CRT but not by much and I would certainly put the new range of LCD TV's above the ordinary "budget price" plasmas on the market today..
chris29579 Posted November 29, 2003 Posted November 29, 2003 And if you are sitting therequired distance away, I dont think youd notice blown pixels. I walked into a store recently and looked at a bunch of plasmas on the wall and the one with the blown pixel stood out like a nipple. It had frozen on bright yellow and I couldn't take my eyes off it. If I had that at home I'd be going crazy. Maybe getting a black pen and trying to colour it in. Oh, I'd notice it all right. CRT's blow pixels too mate.
Timmy Downawell Posted November 29, 2003 Posted November 29, 2003 What makes you think people who buys plasmas are to impress their friends? That's a very simple minded comment lacking substance, with a touch of enviousness in it. As I said I look at the picture quality and it simply just doesn't look as good. If CRTs came in a 'hang on the wall' slimline case like a plasma then I'd take on in a shot. As a piece of furniture plasmas screens look stunning, so sleek and modern. And I think people are blinded by that and purchase them on the basis that it looks cool and modern so it must be better. I have yet to see a plasma screen make the sparkling water in the HD demo look good. YMMV. There's no need to take my opinions/observations personally.
neogeo1503559599 Posted November 29, 2003 Posted November 29, 2003 And if you are sitting therequired distance away, I dont think youd notice blown pixels. I walked into a store recently and looked at a bunch of plasmas on the wall and the one with the blown pixel stood out like a nipple. It had frozen on bright yellow and I couldn't take my eyes off it. If I had that at home I'd be going crazy. Maybe getting a black pen and trying to colour it in. Oh, I'd notice it all right. CRT's blow pixels too mate. what a complete joke. I have been repairing TV close to 10 years now and I have yet to see a CRT with a blown pixel.
neogeo1503559599 Posted November 29, 2003 Posted November 29, 2003 and as for Plasma displays yes they do look nice etc but be very very careful with them I have seen countless people coming in with cracked screens (most likely due to improper handling or poor ventilation.) and the number of times I get calls from people asking if Plasma displays can be " Re-gassed" is starting to piss me off who ever is telling people that plasma displays can be " Re-gassed" needs to be shot.
Timmy Downawell Posted November 29, 2003 Posted November 29, 2003 I have been repairing TV close to 10 years now and I have yet to see a CRT with a blown pixel. My TV had what seemed to be a dead (black) pixel for several weeks and the day after I called for service under warranty it was fine again. A month or two later I was away overseas and a friend was housesitting for me, and while I was gone another one "went" (different place this time) and disappeared again several days later. What could cause this? Is there a bit of flotsam floating around in my CRT? Over a year has passed and it hasn't happened again.
neogeo1503559599 Posted November 29, 2003 Posted November 29, 2003 I have been repairing TV close to 10 years now and I have yet to see a CRT with a blown pixel. My TV had what seemed to be a dead (black) pixel for several weeks and the day after I called for service under warranty it was fine again. A month or two later I was away overseas and a friend was housesitting for me, and while I was gone another one "went" (different place this time) and disappeared again several days later. What could cause this? Is there a bit of flotsam floating around in my CRT? Over a year has passed and it hasn't happened again. Well I can not tell you exactly what it is with out looking at your TV but it most likely is Dust its not to common in CRTs but its one of the areas I would have a look at.
Ripsnorter Posted November 30, 2003 Posted November 30, 2003 My 2 cents worth, I have just gone to a SD Pana Plasma after 12 years with a 68cm pana 4:3. Everytime I switch it on I am blown away by the PQ on SD Digital & DVD. Once you have seen a Plasma set up correctly, (the only time I saw this was in a Hardly Normal store running a DVD thru S-Vid without a common connection to every other Plasma in the store running the same thing), you will be gob smacked too. I was un-impressed with plasmas up until this point. Since getting it home and setting it up with Digital TV and component on the DVD player, I am totally pleased with my purchase. Even my wife who was unashamedly dis-interested until it arrived is now arguing who gets to see what on it. Maybe in 10 years time when most programs will be in HD, I will update to a HD display, but for now I couldn't be happier.
Timmy Downawell Posted November 30, 2003 Posted November 30, 2003 Anyway, sorry for the digression, the thread was supposed to be about plasma vs LCD. ..anyone?
digitaladvisor Posted November 30, 2003 Posted November 30, 2003 This is controversial when it favours one brand over another. Some HD displays will DOWNSCALE better then others and result in premium picture BUT the controversial part is that the display IS NOT TRUE HD 1080i. It is in reality a down converted signal more likely something between 576p and 720p. However the result of downscaling 1080i can be contradictory on various displays. That said - even DigiTec STB's in 1080i can result in poorer picture on 1st generation HD displays then using the 576p HD setting. And to add to the confusion just because we downscale does NOT always mean a worse picture either. The Upscale issue is obvious with Foxtel Analog/VCR source. The upscaling - that is converting (upscale) SD can also generate unwanted side effects. What is controversial is the SUBJECTIVE experiences of some favouring one brand against another. So just because you have HD ready or capable means nothing when it is even labeled 576i/576p/720p/1080i compatible. But I believe the true 2nd generation HDs coming out now from Toshiba, the soon to be released completely revamped Pana and the Sony recent fine pitch draws us much closer to native true HD quality then the 1st generation. However like some here I have reservations that a 86cm sized display is enough to satisfy my desire to see HD on a large enough screen. (BTW: A earlier Sony CRT model HD 86cm I saw was showing breakup in 1080i and was really failing in HD definition on the DigiBox. Scrolling bar bug was also evident and uneven patchy colour in horizontal band almost 1" to 2" across.) - It was obvious the model was rather heavily used on the floor. The other controversy is the ALIS technology in Plasma claimng 1024 * 1024. I have sighted Plasmas of LG, Philips, Sony, Pana and Fitjutsu side by side running the Nine Demo lopp all PLUGGED in DIGIBOX and all separate. ALL on VGA input as WELL! It was one of those rare moments on the sales floor when all were setup "EVEN stephen" and all displaying the NINE HD DEMO LOOP. Sony was awful and was solarising the image (could have one a failed VGA connector cable). Philips showed in strange cool Euro colour bias (blue strong), LG was better but with RED bias, Pana was accurate in colour and looked quite good. But finally that ALIS based Fitjitsu (10204*1024) - WOW FACTOR hit me the difference was obvious and honestly the colours were so much more dynamic. Fine grass scenes were blending on the other plasmas whilst every blade of grass was being displayed without razor effects on the Fijitsu. A OEM importer are selling the IDENTICAL Plasmas - Web Site is http://www.digitalinsight.com.au/products.html at $6,899! And yes thay also sell a LG OEM version for: $5,999. The Fitjitsu ALIS was selling for $8,999. The LG is around $6,999. So we may see 1080i but is it the BEST it can be? What we really are looking for is matching the native resolve potinetal on the display - this is very good policy. This should come closer in digital matching. Now what many think is that they've got get this 1080i pure and neat on their display. All I'm saying the results for best picture will greatly depend on the internal dowscaler and physical line resolving ability on the TARGET display. This is controversal when we conumers are paying premium prices for so called high defintion displays when all those displays are doing is downscaling internally the received signal. Many others have discovered this and have been disappointed. THE DBA web site is crawling with these comments. Panasonic recently released their newer and finer pitch 119cm RPTV HD and some are getting them around $3,400. That is great news to those who want some sort HD capable display in large screen format for a very good price. I am brave enough to say that some of the 1st generation CRT's for HD display were pathetic and I have seen just as good perceptable picture quality on the Nine HD Loop downscaled even to 576i looking only very SLIGHTLY less in quality. I wear glasses and it gives me 20+/20+ vision - I can read down to 3 point size font. But the above display I am talking had VM enhancement (edge detection technology without video ghost shift), sharpness control, a 60Hz capable PAL system sync, 80CM in size and THREE primary gun DIGITAL combs and was a TRINITRON picture (Sony). I believe the only way to determine then best picture is DONE by averaging high quality sources like DVD, SD and HD. Site the broadcasted resolutions to different levels with the displays and spend a week watching each step up when on display. Then cycling back down again and then up again. You'll soon find what is then the most suitable and best quality display. Always ensure consistent source/connection however. That is - DVD progressive connected to HD component , The Digitec or definite HD STB connected either by VGA to VGA (RGBHV) or HD component output/input. Until we all ensure this is done YOU CANNOT determine at all differences in displays. Any plasma plugged into a composite anything source will lose out everytime. In the LCD (not RPTV) I also concure with others - I think the present quality is not up to par. LCD RPTV are just beginning to be ever slightly ahead of plasmas. Bonus here - you simply end up with larger screen for your bang for buck. But in saying all, how this for a price shock - A 117cm Plasma for under $6,000 !!! http://www.dpanda.com.au/dpanda/vmplasma.html Regards DA
Aircon Posted November 30, 2003 Author Posted November 30, 2003 Digitaladvisor, that post was incredible. Thank you. I note that the screens you recommended were 852x480 pixels and had contrast ratio of about 900-1100:1. I understand the issues with upscaling/downscaling, but what about the issue with contrast? I notice some have contrast up to about 3000:1. Would you consider this to be a little less important that what people make out, just like the resolution issue?
Jai Parr Posted November 30, 2003 Posted November 30, 2003 yeah digitaladvisor good post! as u were saying The Vtek looks like great Value for money!!! there really doesn't appear to be anything in that price range that challenges it....I'm gonna get mine in jan, feb!!!!!!!!
digitaladvisor Posted November 30, 2003 Posted November 30, 2003 Digitaladvisor, that post was incredible. Thank you. I note that the screens you recommended were 852x480 pixels and had contrast ratio of about 900-1100:1. I understand the issues with upscaling/downscaling, but what about the issue with contrast? I notice some have contrast up to about 3000:1. Would you consider this to be a little less important that what people make out, just like the resolution issue? So, just how much contrast do you need to see in an image? Empirical data suggests the human eye is limited to a dynamic range of 100:1 at any given instant. That means that if you look at a scene with objects of different luminance values, you won't be able to discern more than a 100:1 difference between the darkest and lightest objects. Of course, the instant your eye moves, its built-in auto-iris function raises and lowers the grayscale boundaries. That's what allows you to perceive shadow detail and also pick out a white cat scurrying along in a field of snow. If you are watching a movie on a plasma or LCD monitor, or with a front LCD/DLP/LCoS projector, you'll probably be satisfied with the displayed images as long as there is not a preponderance of dark gray and black objects. But switch to a nighttime scene with high-contrast lighting, and your eyes will strain to pick out any shadow details - the intermediate grey scales of details - the not so balcks and not so whites. Obviously there's a long way to go to improve the rendering of “low gray levels” on projectors and monitors, but there has been progress. In addition to Panasonic's work with plasma, Texas Instruments has made enhancements to its digital micromirror devices (DMDs) to reduce light scattering and refraction. This, in turn, is dropping the value of “black” and improving both grayscale rendering and contrast. Unfortunately, polysilicon LCD technology seems to be limited in this area. While projectors have become brighter and contrast has improved, black levels are still higher than those measured on DLP projectors by 100% or more. And LCoS imaging isn't any improvement — the black levels I measured on a D-ILA projector were equivalent to several polysilicon models in the review. Remember: Numbers are great for impressing people and can sustain a good argument for several hours. But peak contrast claims don't tell you everything about performance of a projector or monitor when it comes to rendering images with lifelike grayscales, only how much brighter the “whites” can be than the “blacks”. What I'm trying to say is simple: Yes, manufacturers can claim high contrast and exaggerate those level stats but at what payoff in the dynamic range BETWEEN true white to true black PROGRESSION. It is THIS intermediate GREY SCALE stages of pure white to true black progression we are more concerned about then. Caveat emptor. I think the detectable grey scale runs at something like 256 shades of GREY scaling for most human eye detection. Anybody correct me here if I am wrong here? Regards DA
Charles Tisse Posted December 1, 2003 Posted December 1, 2003 Why are you comparing LCD rear projection to plasma? Of course the plasma will look better. I have a 61" LG LCD RPTV, and while I acknowledge that its not as good as plasma, Im still happy with it and it suited my needs perfectly. Plasma is just a phase between CRT and LCD. Samsung has already made a 57" LCD screen with 1920x1080 resolution, it weighs 21.5 kg, and it has a response time of 12ms (no more excuses about fast moving images). Bad news is that it won't come out for at least another year or so. And as for the people who are saying that plasma beats any CRT, you obviously haven't seen a Bang & Olufsen CRT in action. I haven't seen HD that looks that good (even though its not a HDTV). I saw a DVD of Ice Age being played on it, and the characters looked so realistic and three dimensional even. It was mind blowing. Plasma by comparison looked dull and lifeless.
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