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Posted

Hello,

 

I'm going to purchase new tubes for my  Pro-Ject Stereo Box RS Amp. I need GOOD advice on what is a good EC88CC tube and what I should avoid.

 

I've attached a picture of the internals of the amp and the tubes are clearly visible.

 

Thanks,1795233297_Pro-JectStereoBoxInternal.thumb.jpg.30151ae09852dc84fed94e10d4a0a1af.jpg

 

              Three-One

Posted (edited)

1975 production Voskhod Rocket 6N23P with single post upside down flying saucer getter.

 

Edit: NOT 6N23P-EV/EB, these are not a direct replacement and draw more heater current than a 6922.

Edited by muon*
Posted (edited)

I have extensively rolled many vintage ECC88/6DJ8, E88CC/6922, E188CC/7308 and PCC88/7DJ8 tubes. The ones to avoid are the ones without a splatter shield, which are also a more later variant. Budget limit often helps in determining which ones to go for. Here is my current pick. May 1970 Siemens, Munich production. They have the most airy and finest detail in the top end that you'll find in the E88CC series. Very good tubes to use in the preamp stage of a hybrid integrated amp that uses solid state for its power section.

 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/304478256898

Edited by xlr8or
  • Like 4
Posted (edited)

Hello,

 

How do I know if a ECC88 tube has a splatter shield please. Can it be visually inspected from photos or can a splatter shield not be seen on a photo graph? Can you see the splatter shield in the photograph above?

 

Thanks,

 

                  

Edited by ThreeOne

Posted

Hello,

 

So If I'm correct the splatter shield is shown with an arrow in the following image.

 

What does a splatter shield do? What effects does it have on acoustics? What is so bad about ECC88 tubes without splatter shields?

 

Just trying to work out if splatter shields are a good thing or bad thing in terms of price? Does one pay more for a tube with a splatter shield? Do they last longer?

 

Thanks,

 

        ThreeOne

 

 

 

                  

20220513_231525.jpg.9e0f85b5d90b39ee240ee69371c2b895.jpg

Posted (edited)

I've found these ECC88 tubes online for a fair price and it looks like from its photograph that splatter shields are present.

 

they are £21.oo in the UK which I think is about 37 Australian Dollars for 1 tube (not a pair!).

 

https://www.watfordvalves.com/product_detail.asp?id=3956&gclid=Cj0KCQjwsdiTBhD5ARIsAIpW8CK3MdqABEsCu8P2lur6qK4alZe9AXTNu7aIewd292GIyjZ2uaHeMzUaAhceEALw_wcB

 

 

JJ E88CC 06.jpg

Edited by ThreeOne
Posted (edited)

There are 2 classes of tubes: 1) old vintage tubes; and, 2) new production tubes. New production tubes are predominately made in mass volume amounts. The quality of internal construction and materials used are inferior to old vintage types. The older a vintage tube the more over-engineered the internal construction and the more exotic the materials used. This is all reflected in the tonal character of the sound produced. Tubes without splatter shields started to appear at the end of the vintage era (the 1970's and 1980's). They were made with high volume and low cost in mind, nothing more and nothing less. Go back to the early 1960's and you'll find the complete opposite. Fewer tubes were made and the same tubes were made by hand. Certain tube designations back then were also made to outlast you, me and everyone else reading these forums - for example, a 1960's gold pin E88CC/6922 needed to operate 10,000+ hours minimum. By today's standards, the same tube designations don't last anywhere near the same period.

 

If you're after tubes for a budget price then look no further than modern production tube types. If you're after tubes that will produce a magical tonal character that makes you fall in love with certain sound signatures then invest in old vintage tubes. The Siemens pair I linked trounces all over the Tesla's sound signature in all areas, including in its airy top end.

Edited by xlr8or
  • Like 3
  • Love 2
Posted

Hi XLR,

 

Many thanks for your excellent advice.

 

I am limited by funds and won't be able to reach to tubes costing £100 for a single tube. The amplifier I have is tube buffered on the input stage so if I am correct the tubes are not adding completely to the acoustic quality at the output stage. I think I could use cheaper tubes and still get a good result in acoustic quality. 

 

You didn't say what a splatter plate actual does? What are the benefits of a splatter plate etc.

 

Thanks,

Posted
  On 14/05/2022 at 8:03 AM, ThreeOne said:

You didn't say what a splatter plate actual does? What are the benefits of a splatter plate etc.

Expand  

 

Taken from Brent Jessee's Audio Tubes site:

 

"The splatter shield prevented getter flash material from migrating down during the flashing process. Without the shield the flash material could stain the grid and/or plates and affect the operation of the tube. The shield has no effect on the sound and like the o getter is pretty much useless after the getter flash process is complete."

 

Adding to the above excerpt taken from Ralph Karsten from Atmasphere:

 

"I can add a bit to that. The getter is used to trap all remaining air molecules in the aluminum of the getter. After all the air is pumped out and the glass sealed, the getter is fired with a very high voltage. The air is thus trapped in an aluminum deposit seen on the inside of the glass near the getter. Because its aluminum, if the glass seal is lost, the getter deposit turns white with aluminum oxide in a matter of minutes.

 

The getter can be ’over-fired’. If this happens other elements in the tube can be contaminated. That splatter shield takes care of that (I wish they were used in Chinese tubes, which are often over-fired..). As Amperex improved their technique, the splatter shield wasn’t needed. Getting rid of it is a good thing, since it can contribute to microphonics."

 

  On 14/05/2022 at 8:03 AM, ThreeOne said:

I think I could use cheaper tubes and still get a good result in acoustic quality. 

Expand  

 

I wouldn't take the risk to be perfectly honest. Having played around with many similar hybrid integrated amps the tube is there to be rolled.

  • Like 2
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Posted

Hi,

 

As a beginner in rolling tubes (as you say. I thought only cigars were rolled but that's another story). I get what you mean by rolling and forgive me for being so flippant to the tube "rolling" community). Its an art in itself I do see.

 

I have already had these tubes changed in my Pro-Ject Stereo Box RS (above) with £50 per pair tubes. They sound perfectly fine to me. Most of the sound tweaking in a audiophile set-up comes between the synergy between the amp and speakers with 75% if not more from the speakers. My first port of call in getting the sound right in a system is the speakers. 

 

The only downside I can see (from my point of view) is that the lifetime of mass produced tubes is short. I completely see your point on that. From experience I think this is true.

 

Thanks for all you advice. I wish my budget were bigger and I would pick the  Siemens gold pins. 

 

Thanks for all your advice from the other side of the world. (isn't that amazing that we can have a conversation like this when we inhabit opposite sides of the globe.)

 

ThreeOne

 

 

Posted

If you let me know your exact budget I will find you the best pair to use.

  • Like 1
Posted
  On 14/05/2022 at 10:55 AM, ThreeOne said:

Hi,

 

As a beginner in rolling tubes (as you say. I thought only cigars were rolled but that's another story). I get what you mean by rolling and forgive me for being so flippant to the tube "rolling" community). Its an art in itself I do see.

 

I have already had these tubes changed in my Pro-Ject Stereo Box RS (above) with £50 per pair tubes. They sound perfectly fine to me. Most of the sound tweaking in a audiophile set-up comes between the synergy between the amp and speakers with 75% if not more from the speakers. My first port of call in getting the sound right in a system is the speakers. 

 

The only downside I can see (from my point of view) is that the lifetime of mass produced tubes is short. I completely see your point on that. From experience I think this is true.

 

Thanks for all you advice. I wish my budget were bigger and I would pick the  Siemens gold pins. 

 

Thanks for all your advice from the other side of the world. (isn't that amazing that we can have a conversation like this when we inhabit opposite sides of the globe.)

 

ThreeOne

 

 

Expand  

From my time with tubes vintage and new you might want to look at New black glass Shuguang brand. Top level new production.

Posted (edited)

Hi,

 

Very, very grateful for your help.

 

I tried to find the New black glass Shuguang tubes but couldn't find the e88cc version anywhere online.

 

 

I have a budget up to £60 for 2 tubes.

 

Many thanks in advance,

 

                   

Edited by ThreeOne
  • Like 1

Posted (edited)
  On 07/05/2022 at 3:50 AM, muon* said:

1975 production Voskhod Rocket 6N23P with single post upside down flying saucer getter.

 

Edit: NOT 6N23P-EV/EB, these are not a direct replacement and draw more heater current than a 6922.

Expand  

Uh-hum :)

 

Edit: not sure what year these are but should be very good for the $$ https://www.ebay.com/itm/8-pcs-6N23P-E88CC-6DJ8-6922-Voskhod-Rocket-Double-Triode-Tubes-NOS/193090979799

Edited by muon*
  • Like 1
Posted

Hi Muon, XLR

 

Thanks for your recommendation on the Voskhod Rocket 6N23P. If delivery was from Europe I would go for these as seller is selling 8 tubes for $35!!!! But the seller is in the US and delivery date is given as the latest Jul 18!!! I would like to get delivery sooner if possible. But thanks for your recommendation!

 

xlr, you recommended these  https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/265130927406. They are modern made tubes and are not vintage so I wondered why you have recommended them?

 

Thanks,,

Posted (edited)
  On 15/05/2022 at 11:54 AM, ThreeOne said:

Hi Muon,

 

Thanks for your recommendation on the Voskhod Rocket 6N23P. If delivery was from Europe I would go for these as seller is selling 8 tubes for $35!!!! But the seller is in the US and delivery date is given as the latest Jul 18!!! I would like to get delivery sooner if possible. But thanks for your recommendation!

 

 

Thanks,,

Expand  

Located in: UA, Ukraine.

 

I just had some leave Odessa from the same seller.

 

Sometimes you can get a couple of noisy tubes if not tested, so with 8 It's easy to weed any duds out if there are any.

Edited by muon*
Posted

Many Thanks Muon and XLR,

 

I've learnt a lot from your excellent advice. 

 

I'm going to go with these  https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/265130927406 as the seller is in the UK and selling at a fair price plus I have had XLRs recommendation for them. Hope fully they will last a few years before they give up. I'm not concerned with fine tuning the tube as I believe the speaker can give greater listening refinement than a tube given my own set up.

 

Happy listening to you both,

 

                       ThreeOne

 

 

  • Like 3
Posted

Post back here and let us know how you find the A-framers. Give them about 200 hours burn-in time to thermally condition in. Also, allow 90 minutes in before assessing their true tonal character.

  • Like 1
Posted

They should work out good, I may suggest different things, but maybe as I have less knowledge and experience than Kirk does around different tubes, he knows his stuff :)

  • Like 1
Posted
  On 15/05/2022 at 12:56 PM, ThreeOne said:

Many Thanks Muon and XLR,

 

I've learnt a lot from your excellent advice. 

 

I'm going to go with these  https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/265130927406 as the seller is in the UK and selling at a fair price plus I have had XLRs recommendation for them. Hope fully they will last a few years before they give up. I'm not concerned with fine tuning the tube as I believe the speaker can give greater listening refinement than a tube given my own set up.

 

Happy listening to you both,

 

                       ThreeOne

 

 

Expand  

I used seller YITRY and found them reliable.

Vintage Mullards also reliable. Huge reputation but the sonics not for everyone.

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