Downtempo Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 Pardon me for asking, do you regularly deal with Ivan of Norman Audio even though you are located in Hong Kong? AFAIK, Hong Kong is not supposed to be his territory of distribution for the brands they carry. But it is not something unusual, quite a few audiophiles here also import hifi items from HK or direct from Europe/ States, for the sake of getting the best value. Leno, Call me presumptuous, but having read all your prior posts, it appears to me that you are 'fishing for something' in a manner that betrays your initial underlying stated objective of (in your own words) "passing the important awareness and precaution to local hifi hobbyists" (Reply # 83) regarding "This major hifi shop in adelphi" in an objective manner. Just to get your last inquiry out of the way first, please read Reply # 54 (last 2 paragraphs). Yes, I have a relationship with Ivan to the extent that I trust him enough to leave some funds with him in lieu of my potential future equipment purchases for my homes in Singapore and Malaysia, and I have YET to lose a single cent of my deposited funds all this while - is that very clear to you now? Short of giving you my name in a public forum (which I obviously won't!), I have well established relationships with most vendors in Hong Kong and speak directly on a regular basis with the manufacturers/chief designers of the equipment that I buy. I certainly won't be having these kinds of relationships if I was buying my stuff from any other country distributor/dealer that offered me the lowest price! - I do have my integrity you know. Moreover, I personally cannot categorically state that Norman Audio/Ivan does not sell to customers (who come into his Singapore store) who are based overseas where he does not have distributorship/dealership rights in, but at least from what I know of Ivan Cheng from my own past dealings with him, I would be very surprised if Ivan did indeed actively engaged in promoting these practices. The only 2 exceptions to these that I could possibly see happening is (i) when a customer comes from a country that does not have a manufacturer appointed distributor for the equipment that he is interested in purchasing, or (ii) when a customer comes from a country that already has an appointed distributor but for personal reasons (poor customer servicing, etc.), does not want to deal with that distributor in his/her country, and feels more comfortable with purchasing from say Norman Audio/Ivan - this is understandable, so long the customer knows that the ultimate servicing/warranty lies with Norman Audio/Ivan as many manufacturers only provide local warranty cover to protect the interests of the local distributor/dealer as the the pre, and more importantly, post-servicing component has been priced in. I for one came close to doing that once, when I was considering purchasing the Lamm M1.2 Reference monoblocks amps, but did not like the service that I was getting from the local distributor/dealer in HK (I like to give my business to people that I feel works for it as well as deserves it), and so I was considering buying the amps from Sound Decisions in Singapore - however, I ended up buying the Classé Omega Monoblock amps from my local HK distributor/dealer, B&W Group Asia Ltd. (yes, I'm being unusually transparent here, but then, I have nothing to hide/fear as far as my agenda goes, and who I represent myself to be!). Yes, you can say that I can write anything I like with anonymity in this forum and nothing can be proved (same in your case), but at the very least I have given the folks here a little more (than you) to chew on in terms of providing some background as to who I am as well as explicitly stating my underlying intentions. In your last post (Reply # 125), you give the appearance of asking a seemingly innocent question regarding my apparent dealings with Norman Audio/Ivan despite the fact that I am based in Hong Kong. The obvious point you were trying to raise here was questioning Norman Audio's/Ivan's selling practices that may include selling to customers in countries with established distributorships/dealerships that Norman Audio/Ivan does not have the rights to sell in. You then smartly provided a qualification of soughts in your last paragraph by stating that it is however, quite common amongst Singapore-based audiophiles to purchase products overseas from HK/US/Europe. End of the day, and given your past pattern of replies in your prior posts, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what your true underlying intentions are, and that is, to raise the possibility that Norman Audio/Ivan may be involved in this type of often 'frowned upon' practice which is actually a rather lame attempt by your good self to attempt an obvious public smear of Norman Audio/Ivan. Shame on you Sir! Especially given the fact that you were the original author of this thread, professing noble intentions of raising customer awareness of this affair/Norman Audio. It is starkly obvious that your true agenda is now slowly but surely being revealed layer-by-layer each and every time you attempt to post a reply on this thread in the vein hope of instigating feelings of negativity regarding this affair/Norman Audio. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having opposing points of views, but I have you know that there is a fine line between having an opposing view, and conducting a 'witch-hunt' with the intent to smear a counterparty. Also, no amount of 'wordsmithing' on your part (eg. 'Pardon me', 'perhaps you can help to educate', etc.) will 'mask' what is plainly obvious to all who read what is posted on this thread by your good self. I am more than glad to answer your inquiries as I have already clearly demonstrated in this thread whenever a reply by a forum member has been directed at me. Short of giving out any of my own personal details (contact numbers/emails/addresses, personal bio, etc.), I have tried to be as transparent as is permissible in a public forum given the fact that I am a newcomer to this forum, as well as the fact that I do not currently live in Singapore - out of respect for other forum members, I feel it important to provide a frame of reference regarding myself for all who read this thread. As it has been plain for all to see based on my past posts, I am obviously an ardent supporter of Norman Audio/Ivan Cheng based on my past dealings with Ivan, and I make no apologies for it at all. Companies/individuals will always have their fair share of both 'champions' as well 'detractors' - that's just life. The only misstep that I had perhaps made in my participation in this thread is when I somewhat 'jumped the gun' and labeled the alleged victims/customers of this most unfortunate alleged affair, as presumably been in 'cahoots' as well as been 'retards' (Reply # 55), which I was justifiably lambasted by a fellow forum member for labeling as such, and I subsequently acknowledged this and took back those comments in my follow-up posts. However, other than the above misstep which I responded to swiftly and appropriately, I have willingly given out relevant details of my background to forum members, stated clearly my underlying intentions for posting here in the first place, as well as provided clear and unambiguous views/comments regarding this unfortunate affair. In fact, anybody 'worth their salt' in terms of possessing a 'sleuth's' mind (and given that there is probably an ongoing official case investigation right now, I'm sure there are indeed sleuth eyes focused on this thread), can probably figure out who the heck I am from my writing style as well as key details of what I have written here in this thread. Can the same be said of you? If you start something, then stand and be recognized for it, if not, then please by all means slither back to where you came from, and do not manufacture baseless innuendos (wrapped up in seemingly innocent commiserations/inquiries) with the real underlying intent to publicly smear a counterparty. In conclusion, I can be accused of putting everyone to sleep with my utterly comprehensive and long-winded replies, but unlike your short but highly ambiguous postings coupled with slyly 'masked' innuendos, readers have a pretty good idea who I am and where I am coming from. I would like to ask you, "WHO ARE YOU LENO?" - care to oblige us? Although I am making no direct accusations as of yet without concrete proof, I will however take a direct quote from a fellow forum member ("hmvc") when he said: If my guess is right, u could be dave or some rivals trying to do something funny here. For the bros who know me, Im not a dealer, but a audiophile. I see many first posts by unknown unfamiliar forum names. u can say anything u want. :-* if u see my first post, i did not pass any personal remark on anyone. My view on what i think and react if someone do this to my company. Yes, I know you'll probably say that you are not a "new poster" here, but using "hmvc's" quote here, how do I know that you are NOT some "rivals trying to do something funny here.". So again I ask you, "WHO ARE YOU LENO?". One last thing, I repeat my offer (Reply # 96, last paragraph) to meet with you so as to dispel any further doubts as to who I am and what my intentions are for posting on this thread – please do PM me should you so desire.
Guest Leno Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 In this cyber age, we are who we are. We all have the freedom to choose which forum or thread to participate in, and to whatever extent we wish. Nobody owes each other any autobiography or confession. Keep it up pal.
Downtempo Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 In this cyber age, we are who we are. We all have the freedom to choose which forum or thread to participate in, and to whatever extend we wish. Nobody owes each other any autobiography or confession. Keep it up pal. Leno, Man, all I can say is that you are one messed up dude! Gee, it is obvious that you clearly would like to have the last word on this topic, but can you at the very least write a response that has some relevance to the subject matter, if not, then at least inject some relevant wit in your reply. You remind me of a young child when faced with issues that are beyond his or her tender years that they could not possibly fathom, and who then reply with totally simplistic, if not unrelated gibberish that has no bearing on the issues at hand. Either that, or it appears that your 'collision avoidance radar' is performing optimally. I bet that you make one helluva bomber pilot, skipping, weaving and ducking all the flak that you encounter on your bombing runs! You may also in fact be a fantastic slalom skier skillfully negotiating all those moguls! LOL! You're a funny guy, as you start off by making several seemingly innocuous comments/inquires which actually have sly 'double-edged sword' connotations embedded within, you then receive relevant but forthright (if not long) replies from a counterparty, but instead of responding in a relevant and logical manner (it doesn't have to be long), you simply say, it's all about "freedom to choose which forum or thread to participate in, and to whatever extent we wish." and that "Nobody owes each other any autobiography or confession". But that is TOTALLY besides the point! You seem to have trouble comprehending what I stated in my earlier posts, because the issue has never been about whether an individual has or does not have the freedom to air one's own views/opinions in cyberspace on whatever platform (I think you need to read more carefully). In fact, the advent of the Cyber Age has created forms of communication that we all never knew could exist to facilitate understanding, cooperation and ultimately progress. The downside is, unlike 'the days of yore' where conversations/dialogues had to be conducted in person, and thus we each knew who we're dealing with, the Cyber Age has inadvertently empowered individuals such as your good self to be able to cower behind the facade of a digital device to provide so-called information/comments that are for the so-called 'benefit' of the masses. However, thank god for I.P. addresses! Some things are still traceable in this day and age! In addition, regarding "Nobody owes each other any autobiography or confession", yah, you are absolutely right because there is no gun pointed at your head or my head for that matter. The difference is, when I make a statement/comment/opinion, I actually WANT people to have some idea who I am (short of giving my name, rank and serial no.), as opposed to been a 'faceless' individual 'mouthing off' - ie. I will always stand up in full view regarding what I say in the public domain. That being said, it is then a fair assumption to say that when statements/comments are made by individuals with relative anonymity and who consistently dodge reasonable questions/issues that are directed at them, it is reasonable to view these individuals as possibly possessing dubious intentions at the heart of their respective pronouncements, until such time the identity veil is lifted (at least to a reasonable degree) off these individuals. One way or another "Leno", whether it be on this forum or not (or some other medium - virtual or physical), your real agenda regarding this affair will manifest itself in good time. When that happens, you won't be able to 'invoke the Fifth Amendment' as you have this time round. That I can assure you. Good night & God bless your poor messed up soul! :'( P.S. - Once again, apologies to all participants of this thread for, yet again, another divergence, and now, 'back to regular programming'.
Downtempo Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 In this cyber age, we are who we are. We all have the freedom to choose which forum or thread to participate in, and to whatever extent we wish. Nobody owes each other any autobiography or confession. Keep it up pal. Oh one other thing "Leno", I think you forgot that it is an unfortunate (or fortunate, depending on who you talk to) reality that in some Asian countries, that there is a certain amount of ongoing 'big brother' monitoring - for both national as well as legal interests. So your statement that "We all have the freedom to choose which forum or thread to participate in, and to whatever extent we wish." holds true to a certain degree, but not in its entirety. Just thought you might want a little friendly 'heads up' on this.
woodpecker Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 I hate to believe my body is old, but my brain sure is.... It can't hold more than 8 -10 words before the focus of my eyes goes out. It's like a common patient undergoing surgery, 9876321zzzz I am out under the anaesthesia.. How do u spell tat word..and knowing that a top surgeon with precise blades... Is cutting out the cancer. The pen/keyboard is mightier than the sword, when scripted in hightempo. :)
weibchen Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 it's called TL:DR too long didn't read. Then you combo it with this.. Perfect trolling bait.
Downtempo Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 The pen/keyboard is mightier than the sword, when scripted in hightempo. :) He, he! ;D.....[blush], [blush]......why that's a mighty nice compliment "woodpecker"! :) I hate to believe my body is old, but my brain sure is.... It can't hold more than 8 -10 words before the focus of my eyes goes out. It's like a common patient undergoing surgery, 9876321zzzz I am out under the anaesthesia.. How do u spell tat word..and knowing that a top surgeon with precise blades... Is cutting out the cancer. Wicked example dude!.....not sure about being a "top surgeon", because I can't hold anything steady nowadays (it's called age!) ;D......as for the cancer, I'm not sure if "IT" actually knows that "IT" is been cut out as we speak/write!.....then again, "IT" could already have spread to other parts, but hopefully this is the main 'BIG DADDY' of them all! :o
Downtempo Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 it's called TL:DR too long didn't read. Then you combo it with this.. Perfect trolling bait. DARN!.....now why didn't I think of this earlier?.....a picture says a thousand words.....could have saved 'oodles of time' in typing! :P......however, from the looks of it, not sure if the bait has been taken yet......probably need to dangle it right in front at 'point blank range' before it's finally noticed! ;D
Downtempo Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 "LIKE !" :) You "LIKE!"?? ::)......do you actually get what's going on and what is being said?!......Come, come, here's a bit of "Trolling 101" for you to ponder upon: "In academic literature, the practice of trolling was first documented by Judith Donath (1999). Donath's paper outlines the ambiguity of identity in a disembodied "virtual community". (source: http://en.wikipedia.org)" "Trolling is a game about identity deception, albeit one that is played without the consent of most of the players. The troll attempts to pass as a legitimate participant, sharing the group's common interests and concerns." (source: http://en.wikipedia.org) "A concern troll is a false flag pseudonym created by a user whose actual point of view is opposed to the one that the user claims to hold. The concern troll posts in Web forums devoted to its declared point of view and attempts to sway the group's actions or opinions while claiming to share their goals, but with professed "concerns". The goal is to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt within the group." (source: http://en.wikipedia.org) Clearer now? ::)
Downtempo Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 A whimper....awesome. Silence would be a killjoy. There is no need for the coolthegrass... Leaf n let leaf. Geez "woodpecker", I thought I had a 'steely heart'!.....Dude, you definitely take the cake on that one! (in a good way of course) ;) In between meetings, and upon seeing "Leno's" last reply (Reply # 137, actually it should be Reply # 138, but I'll get to that in the next post), I was actually sitting in front of my PC wondering if I should be rather 'ungentlemanly' and gloat a little by 'rubbing it in a bit more', but felt that it might be a little bit too much to do the 'jiggle over the grave' thingy in the public domain. But hey, since you started it, then here goes: "LIKE" that too. STOP PRESS!.....Hallelujah!....The light has dawned upon you!.....The path to enlightenment appears to have been found by your good self, ushering in a new era! (at least we all sincerely hope so)......as my mommy would say, "Son, we're so glad that we've finally managed to get you potty-trained!"
Downtempo Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 The Plot Thickens?! I just noticed that the ORIGINAL Reply # 1 posted by "Luv4nature" has been removed from this thread sometime today ("meatballz" has now become Reply #1 on 29-May-2011 @ 11:49am), so that's why all my 'Reply' cross-references quoted in my posts are now numbered '1' more than they should originally have been numbered - yes, I have an unfortunate fetish for tracking all things that I deem relevant. "Leno" authored the very first initial post on this thread (29-May-2011 @ 11:26am), and "Luv4nature" was the very first one to reply to "Leno". I managed to find the cached copy over the internet of "Luv4nature's" reply (Reply #1 on 29-May-2011 @ 11:48am), that has since been removed from this thread as of today, and is as follows: Very surprising indeed that it got out of control so quickly. Oey (or Wee) is of course not involved in all these, as he has left Norman and set up his own company (AV Intelligence) well before all these happenings. Don't know how ugly it'll become... When I first read the above post some time ago, I thought that "Luv4nature's" comments were quite normal given that he rightly was trying to ensure that the key people who were currently or formerly connected to Norman Audio (like Ivan and Wee/Oey) were not tarnished by this most unfortunate alleged affair involving Dave (see "Maniax's" account of events, Reply #81 on 14-Jun-2011 @ 9:56am). If memory serves me correctly, I believe Wee/Oey left Norman Audio in Q4 2010, and Dave left Norman Audio sometime in Q1 2011. That being said, I wonder why the above post by "Luv4nature" has been removed all of a sudden? There are only 4 parties that I can think of that have the authority/access to remove this particular post: (i) "Luv4nature", (ii) "queks" the Global Moderator, (iii) law enforcement or related personnel, and (iv) a hacker. So the first question is "who" removed this post from the thread, and the second question is "why" was this post removed from the thread. As I am new to this forum and as such not familiar with/part of the close-knit Singaporean audiophile community who will have a much better understanding of things in the local scene, I will not jot down what I am speculating in my mind right now - yes, "Wherelumai" and "jdc115", I have learnt my lesson; no more unnecessary labeling! ;) Does any other forum member have any thoughts on this new development, and/or some insights as to what this may be signaling? Or is this just nothing at all?
dane1624705945 Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 Downtempo, I think it would be nice if you would participate in other threads here also and share your experience and knowledge about the hobby we all share :)
Downtempo Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 Downtempo, I think it would be nice if you would participate in other threads here also and share your experience and knowledge about the hobby we all share :) Would love to dane! Actually is there a Wilson Audio, Ayre, Transparent Audio or PurePower related threads here? I actually got a few very nice PM's from fellow forum members here - you guys are a nice bunch! I do not participate much in forums in general, but it's very thoughtful and kind of you to ask me. In fact, as I mentioned already, I'll be popping down to Singapore to Norman Audio/Ivan's place in a couple of weeks to check out the Dan D'Agostino Momentums. If anyone of you guys are around, maybe we all can meet up (if you're interested) and have a listening session together? - I'm really 'old school', in that I have always preferred 'pressing the flesh' so to speak as opposed to virtual interaction. Once again, many thanks for asking me to participate. :)
Guest Leno Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 This topic is getting way out of original intent. Way too much of individual personality jamming the flow and readability. If needed, go start your own facebook or a dedicated thread.
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