Home Theatre & 2 Channel Together - can it be done??

[Paul Spencer]

Hi Paul, I guess really it gets to a point where you tune and calibrate a system so far using measurements and treatments, but then it appears there's also a lot of scope for the old suck it and see approach?

Peter (I got that right didn't I?)

As much as I like the idea of starting with measurements and then tweaking by ear, what I find is that my tweaks bugger things up. After a while I run measurements again and recalibrate. It nearly always sounds much better. So the direction I'm headed, as I learn more, is towards trusting the result that measures well to a greater degree. I always evaluate by ear - the ears always have an opinion. Measurements are like the map. The map doesn't tell you about the breeze you encounter on the path, but it does help you get to your destination. Having said all that, I'm having trouble suggesting anything because I haven't heard your centre, and that is the first thing I'd do. That first step might then suggest where to look.

In terms of measurements, you could measure the 3 front speakers nearfield and in the listening position. The nearfield shows the raw speaker response and might show up if there is any weird EQ going on. In the listening position you then see the messed up version you actually hear. You can measure them individually, then left and right together, then with the centre also. Then you ask "does that look like what I think I'm hearing?" You might find from the nearfield that the tweeter has a funny response. In that case you look for the cause, either in the receiver or the speaker itself. If they are all about the same, then you look at the LP measurements. The obviously rolled off sound will be seen in frequency response, because you can measure a difference with more precision than you can hear it.

[ozcal]

Gordon,

Did you find a solution?

Drizt,

I'd expect that to affect things below 300 Hz more. Comments like "rolled of" suggest some EQ going on. But as I say, hard to diagnose remotely.

Paul , the solution I found was to set levels by spl meter rather than the supplied mic and software , like wise I set the distances (delay) by doing manual measurments. I then ran Ypao ( yamaha proprietry software) calibration excluding levels and delay and this seemed to help.

I imagine it would be possible on Pete's Denon to manually change the eq on the center chn by ear or by using an spl meter attatched to a pc ruuning REW

[Peter_F]

Peter (I got that right didn't I?)

As much as I like the idea of starting with measurements and then tweaking by ear, what I find is that my tweaks bugger things up. After a while I run measurements again and recalibrate. It nearly always sounds much better. So the direction I'm headed, as I learn more, is towards trusting the result that measures well to a greater degree. I always evaluate by ear - the ears always have an opinion. Measurements are like the map. The map doesn't tell you about the breeze you encounter on the path, but it does help you get to your destination. Having said all that, I'm having trouble suggesting anything because I haven't heard your centre, and that is the first thing I'd do. That first step might then suggest where to look.

In terms of measurements, you could measure the 3 front speakers nearfield and in the listening position. The nearfield shows the raw speaker response and might show up if there is any weird EQ going on. In the listening position you then see the messed up version you actually hear. You can measure them individually, then left and right together, then with the centre also. Then you ask "does that look like what I think I'm hearing?" You might find from the nearfield that the tweeter has a funny response. In that case you look for the cause, either in the receiver or the speaker itself. If they are all about the same, then you look at the LP measurements. The obviously rolled off sound will be seen in frequency response, because you can measure a difference with more precision than you can hear it.

Hi Paul, yepp you got the name right!

I have solved the roll off the problem. In the end I was of the opinion the tweeter wasn't working at all, or not functioning properly. I played around with the speaker and it turns out one of the plates which links the two pairs of binding posts together wasn't properly in place and wasn't making contact with the tweeter binding post, hence no tweeter!!

I have no idea how the plate came to be that way because it's not something I've ever fiddled with.

Now that the centre is working again and mounted on top of the cabinet instead of underneath it is certainly a lot different sounding as you would expect. I'll leave it this way for a week and get used to it, bearing in mind it wasn't calibrated in that position, and then put it back in the cabinet and see how that sounds.

When my additional surrounds arrive and are installed I'll recalibrate the HT system and see how that sounds. After that I'll look at getting the room measured and analyse the results to see which course of action to take.

I have attached 2 x pic's. One shows the setup with the centre speaker under the top with the 2 channel rig in situ. The other pics shows the centre speaker on top and the 2 channel rig removed.

Cheers, flemo.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]37800[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]37801[/ATTACH]

Edited November 12, 2011 by flemo

[betty boop]

great stuff flemo. excellent got to the bottom of it. centre does look a lot better placed at the top. once calibrate it there things only going to improve further I reckon.

ps re the 2c stuff, dont have to remove it completly. myelf I have sources and pre amp etc, just positioned to the right of the room. that way doesnt chew up valuable space in the front stage, and dont have to give up the 2ch stuff to enjoy the ht

[Peter_F]

Hi :)al,

I decided to pull the 2 channel system out as it hadn't been running for a couple weeks and was a hindrance with sorting through the HT issues.

The amp was with a techie who I had "measure" the filter chokes and then "measure" 2 x other pairs of donated chokes to see if they were suitable for the amp. It was quite cool actually, even got the graph printouts too and a perfectly matched set of upgraded chokes. The irony here is the measurements confirmed what I heard before measurements were conducted, and I already knew which the better sounding chokes were. The measurements supported my choice.

I also have some new resistors which I need to install in the dac to change the flavour, and replace the last remaining cap in the power supply of the Mingda. I can do this now while I'm enjoying the HT and the kids study for their exams.

Cheers, flemo.

[ozcal]

great stuff flemo. excellent got to the bottom of it. centre does look a lot better placed at the top. once calibrate it there things only going to improve further I reckon.

ps re the 2c stuff, dont have to remove it completly. myelf I have sources and pre amp etc, just positioned to the right of the room. that way doesnt chew up valuable space in the front stage, and dont have to give up the 2ch stuff to enjoy the ht

I had a similar arrangement in the old house , with the ht gear at the front and the 'good stuff' :mad: on a side wall. Pity the Ming da doesn't have ht bypass as it would make life a lot easier , though using the power amp of the MD for ht might just be over kill

[ozcal]

Hi :)al,

I decided to pull the 2 channel system out as it hadn't been running for a couple weeks and was a hindrance with sorting through the HT issues.

The amp was with a techie who I had "measure" the filter chokes and then "measure" 2 x other pairs of donated chokes to see if they were suitable for the amp. It was quite cool actually, even got the graph printouts too and a perfectly matched set of upgraded chokes. The irony here is the measurements confirmed what I heard before measurements were conducted, and I already knew which the better sounding chokes were. The measurements supported my choice.

I also have some new resistors which I need to install in the dac to change the flavour, and replace the last remaining cap in the power supply of the Mingda. I can do this now while I'm enjoying the HT and the kids study for their exams.

Cheers, flemo.

Ml1'a look excellent of the B&W stands Pete

[Peter_F]

Hi Gordon, I do prefer to keep the 2 systems independent which is a PITA sharing the same room. I know my cupboard has to go, as it really kills the isolation and sound quality of the 2 channel setup, but provides the convenience of housing everything economically with regard to space and tidiness. I'm thinking of mounting the centre speaker under the TV to the wall and having a series of racks for the HT setup under the speaker, and isolation platforms on the floor in front of the HT setup for the 2 channel system. I just have these visions of my kids, god bless them, leaning and balancing on the 2 channel components when putting in DVD's. Maybe if the HT components was at the back of the room...... oh gawd, more ideas to contend with!!

[ozcal]

Pete , I recently swapped the white rack I had in the music room for 3 Ikea lack side tables, so the transport sits on one , the pre head unit on the next and the tt on the last.

The dac , power amp and phono stage sit on isolation platforms ( chopping boards atop halfed super balls) underneath the lacks. This provides individual supports for all equipment and the improvement in sound quality was not subtle.

Given that the Lacks currently cost about $16 a pop it might be worth experiemnting with them.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]37818[/ATTACH]

If you bought 6 lacks you could make 3 2 shelved racks by attatching the table top to the bottom of a completed rack. You could then fit spikes to the bttom of the complete 2 shelf rack for levelling and stability.

[betty boop]

ikea lack tables are an excellent choice and well know for their isolation.

flemo wall mounting the centre speaker will free up some shelf space. if not wall mounting can also consider a shelf that comes off your equipment unit. so centre sits just below tv but free of the equipment on the unit below.

if still considering splitting your 2ch and ht gear physically. just a matter of a 2-3 tier equipment rack to the side ? or am missing something. would be best possible scenario splitting /isolating the 2ch and av gear physically and electrically

re system instegration 2ch/ht. if either your pre/power/integrated amp your using has a ht bypass makes it very fuss free in use. perhaps worth asking the guy working on your amp to ask if can be incorporated ?

[vic]

Hi Flemo,

2ch and HT combined can work in the same room , depending on size of space and components.

In your case, you have the space to place 2 chan speakers in their best sounding spot etc,and as Al,s post above, seperate the systems electrically and physically .(dvd/bluray players,set top boxes etc are bad for sound quality )

In My case I tried to combine systems but (speakers for 2 chan can,t be placed in their best position ),so I use another room which is for 2 chan now only , with big system 2ch/HT as well.

Cheers Victor.

[Once was an audiophile]

Hi Flemo,

2ch and HT combined can work in the same room , depending on size of space and components.

In your case, you have the space to place 2 chan speakers in their best sounding spot etc,and as Al,s post above, seperate the systems electrically and physically .(dvd/bluray players,set top boxes etc are bad for sound quality )

In My case I tried to combine systems but (speakers for 2 chan can,t be placed in their best position ),so I use another room which is for 2 chan now only , with big system 2ch/HT as well.

Cheers Victor.

Wtf vic you use audio research ref600mkIII monos in a ht setup,your one crazy dude seriously i must watch a movie on your ht setup..............

extreme amplification for ht that is the equivalent of taking a formula 1 car down the shop for some milk and bread......:nana

ps:i will bring the popcorn you supply the kebabs (xtra garlic souce thanks)

Edited November 14, 2011 by kajak12

[Peter_F]

If you bought 6 lacks you could make 3 2 shelved racks by attatching the table top to the bottom of a completed rack. You could then fit spikes to the bttom of the complete 2 shelf rack for levelling and stability.

I Gordon, I was thinking of a similar setup using the 3-legged Lovan stands or something similar. I'm still thinking this through at the moment.

[Peter_F]

re system instegration 2ch/ht. if either your pre/power/integrated amp your using has a ht bypass makes it very fuss free in use. perhaps worth asking the guy working on your amp to ask if can be incorporated ?

Hi al, my 2 channel tube amp probably wouldn't work that well with the AVR, if at all?

Anyhoo my aditional surround speakers arrived yesterday so I'll attempt to install them this weekend and look at a recalibration to follow soon afterwards.

Cheers, flemo.

[ozcal]

I Gordon, I was thinking of a similar setup using the 3-legged Lovan stands or something similar. I'm still thinking this through at the moment.

HI Pete , I would give the Lacks a try first , they are way cheaper than the Lovans and I 'll wager will have less negative impact on the sound. They lacks come in a range of finishes to match your decor